H
hooty3
Guest
i don't think anyone cares enough to make it an arguement / issue....wait til points are involved...
Yellow Line Rule
- Thread starter paul
- Start date
might be late for this but.
i also belived i saw him belive the line a bit when he passed, i will watch the tape again this afternoon.
i also belived i saw him belive the line a bit when he passed, i will watch the tape again this afternoon.
G
Gordon Fan
Guest
Well, it looks like you are whining. And for losing, looked to me as if Stewy Boy and Crusty weren't a factor at all! And even if there were an infraction, your whining should be aimed at Nascar.
H
Highboy90
Guest
You Gordo guys make me laugh. I'm not whining. Hell, could really care less. Was just sharing a photo and a video for discussion. Carry on...
6
66mustang
Guest
Don't worry highboy...its there only comeback. Same thing: "look who's whinning?" Maybe they should think of something new...
H
Highboy90
Guest
I love it!
S
smack500
Guest
I told you, we cant go one week without someone generlizeing people.
you tony stewart guys all like tony stewart !!!!! in your face lol atleast if your gonna generalize say something factuall.
S
smack500
Guest
Something new ok
Jeff 61 wins 4 championships
tony to little to count
harvick sames goes for him
you got the bat boys I just threw the ball
Jeff 61 wins 4 championships
tony to little to count
harvick sames goes for him
you got the bat boys I just threw the ball
H
Highboy90
Guest
Your way off topic now.
paul
Team Owner
Start your engines!! WOOHOO! You're all good people!
6
66mustang
Guest
1 question: How long as Gordon been in Cup versus Stewart's time in Cup? Harvick...well even I think he shouldn't be compared to Gordon or Stewart.
S
smack500
Guest
1 statement even if you compare there 2 carreers side by side jeff had more wins at this point in his carreer.
I thought this was over anyway lol.
I respect stewart hes a great driver, up there with the best of em currently driveing.
I thought this was over anyway lol.
I respect stewart hes a great driver, up there with the best of em currently driveing.
6
66mustang
Guest
Boy I could say a bunch here but I don't want to start something bad. Ya know Gordon fans when they get defensive...
S
smack500
Guest
why do you have to generalize lol
I was just messin I didnt know I was offending you lol
I was just adding to the conversation, if you cant handle the heat get out of the kitchen.
you know them harvick fans, when they loose there atitude they act just like there driver. lol
I was just messin I didnt know I was offending you lol
I was just adding to the conversation, if you cant handle the heat get out of the kitchen.
you know them harvick fans, when they loose there atitude they act just like there driver. lol
6
66mustang
Guest
Here we go...
H
Highboy90
Guest
paul
Team Owner
Hey smack...let's play nice folks.
S
smack500
Guest
Im just messin with you 66, I respect harvick hes pretty good. I expect this year to be his comback year.
M
millerliteford
Guest
Regarding the discussion on the yellow line incident involving Jeff Gordon, the answer is........
There is no answer!
Mainly because of the always present subjective nature of the decisions involving everything that is NASCAR. The deal can be argured either way and at all times NASCAR can come up with a reasonable explanation as to why which way they go this time is correct. The interesting thing is, they can go in a completely different direction and still be right.
Gordon did go below the yellow line on 2 occasions that showed up on the telecast. If there were others we missed them. On both occasions, both left side tires were below the yellow line. In other words you could see the yellow line, then pavement, and then the left side tires. Its not a judgement call, his tires were below the yellow line, period.
Time for the subjective part though, and NASCAR's interpretation of the rule.
Did he improve his position?
Yes, on both counts. But there's plenty of room for discussion and or interpretation.
The first venture below the yellow line appeared to be the result of a bump from Craven. Craven did not force Gordon below the yellow line, but thats where Gordon drove his car after he was bumped. When he first crossed below the yellow line the front of Cravens car was slightly ahead of the front of Gordons car and he was only below the yellow line briefly. But before, during, and after, going below the yellow line, Gordon was in the process of pulling past Cravens car. He had a run and during that run which started out as I mentioned with Cravens car holding a slight advantage over Gordons, he went below the yellow line and continued on to make the pass.
My interpretation on this one, which is worthless by the way, is that its a non-foul. Craven didn't force Gordon below the yellow line and it was clear that Gordon didn't need to go below the yellow line to avoid Craven after the bump. There was still room on the race track. But I still say its a non-foul because Gordon technically didn't benefit from going below the yellow line. He would have made the pass anyway. My argument in Gordons defense would be that he moved left to gather the thing back up after the bump and was not trying to make a pass by going below the yellow line.
The second time below the line was a bit different though. He again was clearly below the yellow line, but this time there was no bumping involved. Blocking, yes, but no bumping. Kenseth had the lead and Gordon moved low to make the pass. Kenseth while still in the lead moved low to block the move, and Gordon while not alongside Kenseth's can continued lower until his tires crossed the yellow line. After crossing the yellow line Gordon was able to put a fender inside Kenseth. At the last second before entering the turn, Kenseth moved up the track, which allowed Gordon room to move up as well. Once into the turn Gordon continued on and made the pass.
Plenty of interpretation room on this one too really. I mean what exactly is the rule? Do you have to complete the pass while you are below the yellow for there to be a foul? That doesn't sound reasonable, but its not my rule, so who knows. The other question is what does improving your position mean? Improving your position by a few inches? A few feet? A car length? What? Can moving to a particular place on the track, while not actually gaining ground on the opposition, be considered improving your position?
To put it another way, if you go below the yellow line, and in the process, force another competitor out of the lane he was racing in so as to avoid an accident and an 18 car pile up, putting yourself in a lane with the trailing competitors all lined up behind you, would that be considered improving your position, although technically you didn't complete a pass while below the yellow line?
Again, plenty of room to argue the deal either way, but my take on it is pretty simple. This particular incident was exactly the reason for the rule to begin with. While he was not as far below the yellow line, and there was not a slower car ahead on the apron to further compound things, this was exactly the same move Gordon put on the #2 car to win the 500. The exact same move that resulted in the rule we have now.
I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories and really have no complaints. There's not room for any. But there's plenty of room for NASCAR to decide such things as they wish. You have to wonder if they really aren't as dumb as they appear at times.
Rusty
There is no answer!
Mainly because of the always present subjective nature of the decisions involving everything that is NASCAR. The deal can be argured either way and at all times NASCAR can come up with a reasonable explanation as to why which way they go this time is correct. The interesting thing is, they can go in a completely different direction and still be right.
Gordon did go below the yellow line on 2 occasions that showed up on the telecast. If there were others we missed them. On both occasions, both left side tires were below the yellow line. In other words you could see the yellow line, then pavement, and then the left side tires. Its not a judgement call, his tires were below the yellow line, period.
Time for the subjective part though, and NASCAR's interpretation of the rule.
Did he improve his position?
Yes, on both counts. But there's plenty of room for discussion and or interpretation.
The first venture below the yellow line appeared to be the result of a bump from Craven. Craven did not force Gordon below the yellow line, but thats where Gordon drove his car after he was bumped. When he first crossed below the yellow line the front of Cravens car was slightly ahead of the front of Gordons car and he was only below the yellow line briefly. But before, during, and after, going below the yellow line, Gordon was in the process of pulling past Cravens car. He had a run and during that run which started out as I mentioned with Cravens car holding a slight advantage over Gordons, he went below the yellow line and continued on to make the pass.
My interpretation on this one, which is worthless by the way, is that its a non-foul. Craven didn't force Gordon below the yellow line and it was clear that Gordon didn't need to go below the yellow line to avoid Craven after the bump. There was still room on the race track. But I still say its a non-foul because Gordon technically didn't benefit from going below the yellow line. He would have made the pass anyway. My argument in Gordons defense would be that he moved left to gather the thing back up after the bump and was not trying to make a pass by going below the yellow line.
The second time below the line was a bit different though. He again was clearly below the yellow line, but this time there was no bumping involved. Blocking, yes, but no bumping. Kenseth had the lead and Gordon moved low to make the pass. Kenseth while still in the lead moved low to block the move, and Gordon while not alongside Kenseth's can continued lower until his tires crossed the yellow line. After crossing the yellow line Gordon was able to put a fender inside Kenseth. At the last second before entering the turn, Kenseth moved up the track, which allowed Gordon room to move up as well. Once into the turn Gordon continued on and made the pass.
Plenty of interpretation room on this one too really. I mean what exactly is the rule? Do you have to complete the pass while you are below the yellow for there to be a foul? That doesn't sound reasonable, but its not my rule, so who knows. The other question is what does improving your position mean? Improving your position by a few inches? A few feet? A car length? What? Can moving to a particular place on the track, while not actually gaining ground on the opposition, be considered improving your position?
To put it another way, if you go below the yellow line, and in the process, force another competitor out of the lane he was racing in so as to avoid an accident and an 18 car pile up, putting yourself in a lane with the trailing competitors all lined up behind you, would that be considered improving your position, although technically you didn't complete a pass while below the yellow line?
Again, plenty of room to argue the deal either way, but my take on it is pretty simple. This particular incident was exactly the reason for the rule to begin with. While he was not as far below the yellow line, and there was not a slower car ahead on the apron to further compound things, this was exactly the same move Gordon put on the #2 car to win the 500. The exact same move that resulted in the rule we have now.
I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories and really have no complaints. There's not room for any. But there's plenty of room for NASCAR to decide such things as they wish. You have to wonder if they really aren't as dumb as they appear at times.
Rusty
Whizzer
Gig'em
Any car going under the yellow line and improving thier position is subject to the black flag.
A driver riding with thier wheels ON the yellow line is not a violation.
A driver with thier wheels BELOW the yellow line is not a violation unless they improve thier position.
Driving with the wheels below the yellow line while making the pass and gaining position is a violation.
The only questionable item was the tap from Craven, considered by most, a racing incident, not a rule violation. That issue was discussed and a conclusion arrived at last year after a similar incident.
If however, Gordon passed Craven and was not tapped, had both wheels below the yellow line while completing the pass, well that constitutes a violation of the "yellow line rule" in order to improve a position and the violator should get the black flag.
Actually I thought this was a pretty simple rule and quite well defined by NASCAR standards, with little room to question what consititutes a violation. There doesn't seem to be the usual "gray" area as in other of thier rules.
A driver riding with thier wheels ON the yellow line is not a violation.
A driver with thier wheels BELOW the yellow line is not a violation unless they improve thier position.
Driving with the wheels below the yellow line while making the pass and gaining position is a violation.
The only questionable item was the tap from Craven, considered by most, a racing incident, not a rule violation. That issue was discussed and a conclusion arrived at last year after a similar incident.
If however, Gordon passed Craven and was not tapped, had both wheels below the yellow line while completing the pass, well that constitutes a violation of the "yellow line rule" in order to improve a position and the violator should get the black flag.
Actually I thought this was a pretty simple rule and quite well defined by NASCAR standards, with little room to question what consititutes a violation. There doesn't seem to be the usual "gray" area as in other of thier rules.
M
millerliteford
Guest
Well, I guess I'm completely on the other side of the fence on this one, because to me the yellow line rule is the definition of gray.
I would like to read exactly what the supposed well defined yellow line rule says, of course you must write the rules down first before that could happen. The way it is now its just left up to everyone's memory just exatly what was said by someone a few years ago. And there's no telling how many variations have occurred over the years. The way I remember it being said is different than the way you remember it being said.
Are we getting gray yet? Hopefully so, because thats the intention NASCAR has. If no one really knows exactly what the rule is how can they make a bad call?
But aside from all of the nonsense, the deal is gray simply because of the subjectivity required in making a call. Its a judgement call! How gray can you get?
Answer this question for me.
What is improving your position?
Not your definition, but NASCAR's.
I've got news for you, they don't have a definition, and yours and mine don't matter. And I'm not sure there is one anyway. Technically any number of things could be considered improving your position, which is why its left up to the officials own judgement, and there two ways to rule on each instance, call or no call, and he's right every time. No, this is as gray as it gets in my opinion.
The incident in the shootout was exactly the same thing that happened that resulted in the rule being made for heavens sake. All thats clear to me is that NASCAR does not have a handle on the deal and as such we are liable to see calls go either way. So what else is new?
Maybe instead of green , green , green, they should say gray, gray, gray?
Rusty
I would like to read exactly what the supposed well defined yellow line rule says, of course you must write the rules down first before that could happen. The way it is now its just left up to everyone's memory just exatly what was said by someone a few years ago. And there's no telling how many variations have occurred over the years. The way I remember it being said is different than the way you remember it being said.
Are we getting gray yet? Hopefully so, because thats the intention NASCAR has. If no one really knows exactly what the rule is how can they make a bad call?
But aside from all of the nonsense, the deal is gray simply because of the subjectivity required in making a call. Its a judgement call! How gray can you get?
Answer this question for me.
What is improving your position?
Not your definition, but NASCAR's.
I've got news for you, they don't have a definition, and yours and mine don't matter. And I'm not sure there is one anyway. Technically any number of things could be considered improving your position, which is why its left up to the officials own judgement, and there two ways to rule on each instance, call or no call, and he's right every time. No, this is as gray as it gets in my opinion.
The incident in the shootout was exactly the same thing that happened that resulted in the rule being made for heavens sake. All thats clear to me is that NASCAR does not have a handle on the deal and as such we are liable to see calls go either way. So what else is new?
Maybe instead of green , green , green, they should say gray, gray, gray?
Rusty
T
Tiredog
Guest
"Improving your position" to me means passing a competitor.
Did Jeff pass Matt while Jeff's wheels were below the line? Nope.
Was it a violation? Nope.
It's time to go racin'!
Did Jeff pass Matt while Jeff's wheels were below the line? Nope.
Was it a violation? Nope.
It's time to go racin'!
M
millerliteford
Guest
Technically you don't need to complete a pass anyone to improve your position. But its really NASCAR's intrepretation of the unwritten rules that is important. Of course we don't know what that interpretation is mainly because its subjective and subject to change.
One thing is for certain though. To suggest that a pass must be completed by a car that is below the yellow line for there to be an infraction is ridiculous. If you don't believe me, ask Tony Stewart. He was black flagged for going below the yellow line, but he didn't complete a pass while below the yellow line. Yet he still got penalized. Why? Because he went below the yellow line with the intent of improving his position. And he did. When he came back across the yellow line he was now alongside the car in front of him. There were plenty of complaints on that one and plenty of room for discussion, but the penalty stood and we had an idea of what constituted a foul at that time.
We also had an idea of what constituted a foul in the beginning, when the rule was put into effect. Gordon pulled the same move on Rusty as he did in the shootout on Kenseth. In neither case did he make a pass while below the yellow line. But in both instances he used the territory below the yellow line to improve his position. By going below the yellow line he was able to be in a position of having the low groove once the cars entered the turn. That is certainly an improved position.
If Gordon had not gone below the yellow line in either case he would not have made the pass!
I think thats something everyone would agree with and its the reason for the rule. You can't go into the turn, I guess I should say that you can't make the turn, at 185, if your car is not above the yellow line. In the situation where a car is below the yellow line, even slightly below the yellow line, with a car beside on the high side, the car on the high side has 2 choices. Hold his line and get taken out or move up the track. And thats why the rule was put into effect. Its a dangerous situation and NASCAR didn't want to see what the result would be.
There's no question that the move Gordon has down is a winning move. No question at all. But there is a question as to whether its a legal move with todays rules. Unfortunately with the vague nature of all the rules out there, its possible for NASCAR to make the call or not and get away with it every time. Its also the reason for all of the arguments. If the rule was clear there wouldn't be anything to argue about. Of course that wouldn't be much fun either.
Rusty
One thing is for certain though. To suggest that a pass must be completed by a car that is below the yellow line for there to be an infraction is ridiculous. If you don't believe me, ask Tony Stewart. He was black flagged for going below the yellow line, but he didn't complete a pass while below the yellow line. Yet he still got penalized. Why? Because he went below the yellow line with the intent of improving his position. And he did. When he came back across the yellow line he was now alongside the car in front of him. There were plenty of complaints on that one and plenty of room for discussion, but the penalty stood and we had an idea of what constituted a foul at that time.
We also had an idea of what constituted a foul in the beginning, when the rule was put into effect. Gordon pulled the same move on Rusty as he did in the shootout on Kenseth. In neither case did he make a pass while below the yellow line. But in both instances he used the territory below the yellow line to improve his position. By going below the yellow line he was able to be in a position of having the low groove once the cars entered the turn. That is certainly an improved position.
If Gordon had not gone below the yellow line in either case he would not have made the pass!
I think thats something everyone would agree with and its the reason for the rule. You can't go into the turn, I guess I should say that you can't make the turn, at 185, if your car is not above the yellow line. In the situation where a car is below the yellow line, even slightly below the yellow line, with a car beside on the high side, the car on the high side has 2 choices. Hold his line and get taken out or move up the track. And thats why the rule was put into effect. Its a dangerous situation and NASCAR didn't want to see what the result would be.
There's no question that the move Gordon has down is a winning move. No question at all. But there is a question as to whether its a legal move with todays rules. Unfortunately with the vague nature of all the rules out there, its possible for NASCAR to make the call or not and get away with it every time. Its also the reason for all of the arguments. If the rule was clear there wouldn't be anything to argue about. Of course that wouldn't be much fun either.
Rusty
M
Mopardh9
Guest
Yep nascar sees it the way they want to depending on the situation and if it will make things more interesting.....
paul
Team Owner
And Gordon vs Jr was what they figured would be most interesting.
H
Highboy90
Guest
Posted on Sun, Feb. 16, 2003
'Yellow-line' rule clarified, stiffened by NASCAR
By JIM UTTER
ThatsRacin.com Writer
DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. - During Sunday's pre-race drivers meeting, NASCAR President Mike Helton announced a revision to the sanctioning body's "yellow line" rule, which is enforced at Daytona and Talladega.
Under the rule, drivers are black-flagged if they drive below the yellow line to advance their position on the track. The line marks the end of the racing groove.
Beginning with Sunday's Daytona 500, a driver who forces others to go below the yellow line in an effort to prevent a pass will also be subject to a black flag.
"Now what we are beginning to see happen, and we saw it yesterday (in the Busch race), is some of you have figured out to protect your spot, you can move down against the yellow line to prevent someone from going on your inside," Helton said.
"That is OK. But if you do it while that guy is trying to get around you and you move him down there while he has a quarter-panel or fender alongside of you, if you make him go down there, then you are subject to a black flag, too."
The announcement received a round of applause from the drivers, crew chiefs and car owners in attendance.
Helton also announced a policy adapted for Saturday's Busch race regarding the use of the red flag to ensure a green flag finish, would be used in Sunday's Daytona 50 as well.
If a caution comes out with less than five laps remaining in the race, the race will not be restarted under green.
'Yellow-line' rule clarified, stiffened by NASCAR
By JIM UTTER
ThatsRacin.com Writer
DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. - During Sunday's pre-race drivers meeting, NASCAR President Mike Helton announced a revision to the sanctioning body's "yellow line" rule, which is enforced at Daytona and Talladega.
Under the rule, drivers are black-flagged if they drive below the yellow line to advance their position on the track. The line marks the end of the racing groove.
Beginning with Sunday's Daytona 500, a driver who forces others to go below the yellow line in an effort to prevent a pass will also be subject to a black flag.
"Now what we are beginning to see happen, and we saw it yesterday (in the Busch race), is some of you have figured out to protect your spot, you can move down against the yellow line to prevent someone from going on your inside," Helton said.
"That is OK. But if you do it while that guy is trying to get around you and you move him down there while he has a quarter-panel or fender alongside of you, if you make him go down there, then you are subject to a black flag, too."
The announcement received a round of applause from the drivers, crew chiefs and car owners in attendance.
Helton also announced a policy adapted for Saturday's Busch race regarding the use of the red flag to ensure a green flag finish, would be used in Sunday's Daytona 50 as well.
If a caution comes out with less than five laps remaining in the race, the race will not be restarted under green.
M
millerliteford
Guest
Well, now that the issue is all clarified for us, maybe NASCAR can appoint someone capable of following along with the changes. For the next race that is, because they blew it today. From what I got out of the stuff they were spewing, the Marlin call today was correct, but they forgot about the guy that forced him below the yellow line.
Nothing has been clarified and it won't be. Nothing has been mentioned as to what improving your position actually means and as evidenced by the race today it wouldn't matter anyway. Its still a gray issue and they can and will make any call they like.
Rusty
Nothing has been clarified and it won't be. Nothing has been mentioned as to what improving your position actually means and as evidenced by the race today it wouldn't matter anyway. Its still a gray issue and they can and will make any call they like.
Rusty
M
millerliteford
Guest
And for Marlins take on the matter.....
"NASCAR's got to figure out who's calling the shots," Marlin said. "I talked to two different high officials this morning -- as high as you can go -- and both of 'em had two different scenarios for (driving) under the yellow line. They've got to get their stuff right before they can tell us what to do. One tells you one thing and one tells you another -- so who do you believe?"
Believe that you got screwed man, while the #38 got off with no penalty, and learn to love it.
Rusty
"NASCAR's got to figure out who's calling the shots," Marlin said. "I talked to two different high officials this morning -- as high as you can go -- and both of 'em had two different scenarios for (driving) under the yellow line. They've got to get their stuff right before they can tell us what to do. One tells you one thing and one tells you another -- so who do you believe?"
Believe that you got screwed man, while the #38 got off with no penalty, and learn to love it.
Rusty
N
N2racin44
Guest
#38 did not get off from anything. His ignition box failed and he tried to move to the bottom of the track so that he did not get run over. Sterling just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Sterling got hosed on that call but I see no reason to black flag Sadler.
M
millerliteford
Guest
Well, according to the clarification, the #38 should have been penalized. Why he forced Marlin below the yellow line is irrelevant, according to what they said. I personally don't agree with that, neither Sadler or Marlin should have been penalized, but the point is that there is no clarification. And the one item they did address, they didn't call the way they said they would once it happened.
Rusty
Rusty
N
N2racin44
Guest
Makes sense. The more I think about it, the more steamed I would be if I was Sterling.
G
Guido
Guest
Marlin got screwed by a stupid rule. He was forced down below that line...... I guess that NASCAR would have preferred that Marlin "lift".
This way, he could have someone tag him in the rear and cause a crash that would provide excitement to an otherwise boring race.
Yes... I AM being sarcastic. NASCAR is afraid to judge each situation on its own merit at the risk of being criticized that they "favor" a particular team, driver or manufacturer. So it has to come up with these blanket rules with "zero tolerance."
These drivers have to make microsecond decisions that will sometimes cause them to violate a "rule" for the sake of not creating a huge crash . NASCAR needs to start using some common sense.
Guido
This way, he could have someone tag him in the rear and cause a crash that would provide excitement to an otherwise boring race.
Yes... I AM being sarcastic. NASCAR is afraid to judge each situation on its own merit at the risk of being criticized that they "favor" a particular team, driver or manufacturer. So it has to come up with these blanket rules with "zero tolerance."
These drivers have to make microsecond decisions that will sometimes cause them to violate a "rule" for the sake of not creating a huge crash . NASCAR needs to start using some common sense.
Guido
M
Mopardh9
Guest
Sense is never common in Nascar ....haven't you realized that yet....lol?