Don't shoot the messenger

LewTheShoe said:
I agree that the Gibbs end run around the four-car limit is a deal that leaves a sour taste in my mouth, particularly in light of @Allenbaba posting that Gibbs is financially on the hook for the costs of operating that 77 car.

I don't personally have a problem with the Penske/Wood Bros relationship, as it doesn't exceed four cars. Same thing with Roush setting up Chris Buescher in the 34 at Front Row, doesn't bother me as the 34 is effectively Roush's fourth entry albeit temporary. I view these collaborations as addressing sponsorship shortfalls rather than seeking to sneak through a fifth car.


I don't think anyone has said Nascar should object to selling chassis or exchanging technical information. The difference is that the Furniture Row 77 doesn't have an arms length relationship with Gibbs, but rather is a de facto Gibbs team including financial responsibility, which exists to circumvent the four-car rule. Read here.
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It's easy to view the deal as an end run around the four car limit...but the more appropriate term would be "favor" since EJ was promised a Cup ride in 2017. Barney has always wanted a second car, even going back to the Regan days. It was a goal of theirs. The Toyota alliance and EJ situation probably sped it up a year or two faster than planned, which is why JGR was eager to help them find sponsorship. But make no mistake about it, the 77 is a FRR car, and while EJ is driving it, he's a FRR driver. It's no different than how it is now. A lot of people just assume Barney is Coach's puppet...that can't be further from the truth. Barney was in the Chase and top 10 in points when Kurt was driving, and made it to the final four last season...both before JGR was in the picture. Barney is very much his own boss, and does things on his own terms. They march to the beat of their own drum out there in Colorado.
 
aunty dive said:
^ You don't think Penske has financial responsibilities to the Wood Brothers # 21?

The 5th car argument is a red herring.
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I think the 5th car deal is the central issue.

(Penske, Wood Bros, and Ford have been very transparent that they have joined forces to race the 21 full time in 2016 - and perhaps beyond - with Ryan Blaney in the car. So of course Penske has financial obligations there. But the 2, 22, and 21 adds up to only three cars.)
 
The TRD / Gibbs / Visser arrangement seems equally transparent to me.

It's a spot for a possible future multiple race winner to get started. Are we complaining about that now?
 
I think one thing a lot of us lose sight of is equating on track performance with maintaining or obtaining a ride in cup but on track performance is only part of the equation in being successful in Nascar. Nascar is about building relationships with company owners, CEO's and marketing execs and it is possible if new leadership had not been brought in Go Daddy may still be sponsoring the 10 car and the same goes for Dollar General and Target who are exiting the series after getting new leaders.

In stick and ball it doesn't matter what type of relationship a player has with anyone as everything is predicated on performance. It doesn't matter if you look like death warmed over or GQ material as all that matters is that you get the job done.....oh and by the way there will always be 2-3 guys in your presence trying to take your job away from you. Once it is deemed you are not the best option you are finished with that team period.

Regarding Denny Hamlin he comes off as an individual that makes Eeyore seem happy and animated so would I rather have someone like him representing my company or say a person like Kenny Schrader entertaining my employees and vendors?
 
aunty dive said:
The TRD / Gibbs / Visser arrangement seems equally transparent to me.

It's a spot for a possible future multiple race winner to get started. Are we complaining about that now?
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I may be on the minority on this but I don't care about the optics of the Visser, JGR, TRD amalgamation because it will leave a good driver like Denny Hamlin in a good car and will elevate potential generational driver Erik Jones into a good ride. Personally I would much rather see successful teams like HMS, JGR and Penske with their fingerprints all over as many teams as resources allow because at the end of the day I see it making the series more competitive.
 
BobbyFord said:
How is this any different from other teams running HMS equipment and sharing technology? Are you saying NASCAR shouldn't allow teams to sell chassis, motors to other teams and exchange tech info?
How would the smaller teams survive when they can't afford to build their own chassis' or run a full-on motor program?
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I'm not saying that, and I don't think NASCAR should or even could do that and keep close to a full field on the track. It's all relative and a matter of degrees. Having a hardware supplier / customer relationship or technical information sharing alliance is one degree. Running shadow teams for other organizations in which drivers are loaned out to keep them under team control is, I would argue, a much greater degree. That's usually not good for competition, and it's the kind of thing we see more in F1 with top teams being in financial and administrative control of secondary teams that act as development / feeder teams. What I am asking is why even bother with the limit if you're going to look the other way on that?

It's just my opinion and the way it strikes me.

aunty dive said:
^ You don't think Penske has financial responsibilities to the Wood Brothers # 21?
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That did occur to me and I did mention it. I'm not up in arms about the whole thing, it just leaves a sour taste as I said. If the four car limit isn't going to be enforced, I'd rather just see it go away than have teams playing games to circumvent it.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I may be on the minority on this but I don't care about the optics of the Visser, JGR, TRD amalgamation because it will leave a good driver like Denny Hamlin in a good car and will elevate potential generational driver Erik Jones into a good ride. Personally I would much rather see successful teams like HMS, JGR and Penske with their fingerprints all over as many teams as resources allow because at the end of the day I see it making the series more competitive.
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That's a good argument, and there is always a lot of nuance to these questions. However, what will happen is that the success of the JGR / FRR symbiosis will cause the other top teams and manufacturers to emulate it more closely. We saw it with HMS and SHR and elsewhere, but it wasn't this tightly aligned. As this approach gets copied elsewhere because it works, the second tier teams with any semblance of independence will be forced to marry up or die out. Then eventually the cries of imbalance will get too loud, and NASCAR will clumsily step in and try to subjectively restore order, because they want more than three superteams. At that point the question will become why they allowed it to reach that point when there were rules on the books to eliminate it.
 
gnomesayin said:
That's a good argument, and there is always a lot of nuance to these questions. However, what will happen is that the success of the JGR / FRR symbiosis will cause the other top teams and manufacturers to emulate it more closely. We saw it with HMS and SHR and elsewhere, but it wasn't this tightly aligned. As this approach gets copied elsewhere because it works, the second tier teams with any semblance of independence will be forced to marry up or die out. Then eventually the cries of imbalance will get too loud, and NASCAR will clumsily step in and try to subjectively restore order, because they want more than three superteams. At that point the question will become why they allowed it to reach that point when there were rules on the books to eliminate it.
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The answer is (imo) that NASCAR is no longer in control of this and other team-related issues.

The RTA is headed for 36 cars total. Again ... just my opinion.
 
gnomesayin said:
That's a good argument, and there is always a lot of nuance to these questions. However, what will happen is that the success of the JGR / FRR symbiosis will cause the other top teams and manufacturers to emulate it more closely. We saw it with HMS and SHR and elsewhere, but it wasn't this tightly aligned. As this approach gets copied elsewhere because it works, the second tier teams with any semblance of independence will be forced to marry up or die out. Then eventually the cries of imbalance will get too loud, and NASCAR will clumsily step in and try to subjectively restore order, because they want more than three superteams. At that point the question will become why they allowed it to reach that point when there were rules on the books to eliminate it.
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Personally I wish we could return to the days where most teams had 1 car and there were various engine and chassis builders but I know that ship sailed a long time ago. I may be really wrong on this so please correct if and where I have strayed but the way I see it is the smaller teams with no charter or 1 charter are at a huge disadvantage as they cannot afford the things that the behemoth teams have. I believe that a team like Germain Racing or Tommy Baldwin Racing are never going to be better than they are today even if they have a top notch driver so it would benefit them to essentially become part of an organization like JGR, HMS or Penske. They would give up independence as Dave Marcis essentially did when RCR would give him an engine or other help but it was a good arrangement for everyone overall.

I really dislike that Nascar has made rules and is using a car that requires so much expense for teams to get an extra 10th of speed as it knocks the little guy right out of the series. When I started following cup there were owners like RahMoc Enterprises, Rod Osterlund, Junie Donlavey, Billy Hagan, Bud Moore and DiGard and they all raced with varying degrees of success but while money was important ingenuity was even better.
 
You would think these Nascar team owners would look at declining TV viewers and attendance and stop and realize this isn't working.The Charlotte Observer had an article about Nascar's problems,Nascar blamed the decline of the middle class on them.They really have no clue.
 
darlingtonfan said:
You would think these Nascar team owners would look at declining TV viewers and attendance and stop and realize this isn't working.The Charlotte Observer had an article about Nascar's problems,Nascar blamed the decline of the middle class on them.They really have no clue.
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Blaming things on the shrinking middle class doesn't pass the smell test as I don't know of any US based sports league that has lost half its fans and has had to rip out hundreds of thousands of seats at venues where it plays.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Blaming things on the shrinking middle class doesn't pass the smell test as I don't know of any US based sports league that has lost half its fans and has had to rip out hundreds of thousands of seats at venues where it plays.
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I know this middle class fan had enough when they wanted me to buy three race packages , three night minimum stay in my motel room , $40.00 for a shirt or hat , plus you couldn't get a seat in a local restaurant or bar at any price . When it comes to attending races , they pretty much killed this golden goose . It is different for Cup fans , as a great many of us travel a long way to see races . Most of the stick and ball fans likely live in a 200 mile radius of the stadium .We pay a lot more to attend an event , and instead of trying to keep prices reasonable , Nascar led the way in putting up the costs . .
 
ted@economy said:
I know this middle class fan had enough when they wanted me to buy three race packages , three night minimum stay in my motel room , $40.00 for a shirt or hat , plus you couldn't get a seat in a local restaurant or bar at any price . When it comes to attending races , they pretty much killed this golden goose . It is different for Cup fans , as a great many of us travel a long way to see races . Most of the stick and ball fans likely live in a 200 mile radius of the stadium .We pay a lot more to attend an event , and instead of trying to keep prices reasonable , Nascar led the way in putting up the costs . .
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Nascar reminds me of the dealership where I work........ when the folks realize the service rate and prices on parts are out of reason... the parts and service starts to drop off.... the profits start to fall...... so.... they jack up the price on service and parts to make up for the shortfall..... then.... you sell even less.... so.... they jack them up more......
 
kymartin6 said:
Nascar reminds me of the dealership where I work........ when the folks realize the service rate and prices on parts are out of reason... the parts and service starts to drop off.... the profits start to fall...... so.... they jack up the price on service and parts to make up for the shortfall..... then.... you sell even less.... so.... they jack them up more......
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Just talking to my brother in law tonight . He trades every two or three years. Rust checks his vehicle every winter , does all the recommended maintenance at the dealership , pays outrageous prices for oil changes , tires , batteries , belts , etc . . He takes his car in to trade it and the only thing they ask him is "What's the mileage ?" .They don't care that he spent all that money maintaining his car . In fact , the mileage that he puts on taking it into the dealer is probably working against him .
 
ted@economy said:
I know this middle class fan had enough when they wanted me to buy three race packages , three night minimum stay in my motel room , $40.00 for a shirt or hat , plus you couldn't get a seat in a local restaurant or bar at any price . When it comes to attending races , they pretty much killed this golden goose . It is different for Cup fans , as a great many of us travel a long way to see races . Most of the stick and ball fans likely live in a 200 mile radius of the stadium .We pay a lot more to attend an event , and instead of trying to keep prices reasonable , Nascar led the way in putting up the costs . .
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You can say that again. 6764 miles one way! And then the Fontana add on. :D

Kobolt 400.jpg
 
ted@economy said:
I know this middle class fan had enough when they wanted me to buy three race packages , three night minimum stay in my motel room , $40.00 for a shirt or hat , plus you couldn't get a seat in a local restaurant or bar at any price . When it comes to attending races , they pretty much killed this golden goose . It is different for Cup fans , as a great many of us travel a long way to see races . Most of the stick and ball fans likely live in a 200 mile radius of the stadium .We pay a lot more to attend an event , and instead of trying to keep prices reasonable , Nascar led the way in putting up the costs . .
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One thing the shrinking middle class didn't do was to cause people to stop watching from home.
 
Team Penske said:
Not everyone can live in the middle of nowhere and have free plane tickets to go to races. :D
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Don't spread false rumors Peter.
And the place is called Utopia. :)

Actually our govt. in it's infinite wisdom put a fringe benefit tax on work perks. So it should be a lot cheaper!
But I'm not complaining. ;)
 
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