NASCAR, once a cultural icon, hits the skids (WSJ)

gnomesayin said:
To an extent yes, as I said: "It is much easier to increase an audience that was already decimated in decades prior like IndyCar".

They are doing something correct though. It's not true that there is any preordained natural recovery after hitting rock bottom. Most businesses just plain die when that spiral sets in. If IndyCar had continued to be as badly mismanaged as it was in the early 2000's, it would be a one-race series today. They are growing and have managed to significantly bolster regular viewership and a core audience during the past several years. I wish them the best, and I wish NASCAR / stock car racing the best too, though I think new leadership is absolutely required for that to happen.
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I think it is fair to say that Nascar is succeeding in spite of itself instead of because of itself.
 
Acs said:
The silver lining to INDYCAR hitting rock bottom has been that teams finally got it through their heads that they needed to cut costs to improve the product. It hasn't always been smooth, see the rollout of the common DW-12 chassis, but open wheel wouldn't exist in this country anymore if they had continued an F1 style R&D race. I pray it doesn't take something as drastic for NASCAR to get the message.
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Someone could probably make a case that as Nascar's teams have spent more money the on track product has become worse.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I'm putting perspective in it. INDYCAR's ratings are so low that it really only takes one race having 500,000 more viewers than last year to push the overall ratings for the year up.

The most glaring fact is that ratings for the Indianapolis 500 were down and ratings for the races on NBCSN were down across the board. That means that, for a majority of the races, there were fewer people watching. There are only a few other races shown on ABC, which makes my scenario the most likely -- that one race on ABC drew a fluke ratings increase. And if there was a race that came on immediately after an NBA game or even before an NBA game, that would make sense.

The same thing has happened with the NASCAR Championship race the last two years. They fluked big league ratings because people were tuning in for Football Night in America and the race ran long.

But, yes, I agree, the racing in INDYCAR is way better than NASCAR.
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2015 was the most-watched season since NBC Universal got rights back in 2009 so it would've been hard to top. 2016 still stands as the second-highest season in viewership since then. 18-49 was actually up from 2015. So, the gains aren't huge or anything but in general the recent trend has been upwards.

Edit: Just saw what @gnomesayin wrote.
 
Snappy D said:
Brush aside the incremental increase thats fine, laugh at it if you must. But Indy Car is on the uprise, if you've ever watched a race I think you'd see that they have the better product right now.
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That is your opinion. You know what they say about opinions...

I'm an Indycar fan from waaay back, nearly 60 years, but my opinion is sharply different from yours. If Nascar fans were subjected to a product as anemic as modern Indycar, the Internet would explode and burn to the ground IMO. Short fields of 21 cars, and nearly half of 'em are occupied by pay drivers. Spec cars in a way Nascar can't even imagine, every one from the exact same production line. Low power with tons (literally tons) of downforce. Every oval race is completely aero dominated. Every steet race and most of the road races are follow-the-leader and hope for a pass via pit strategy... Elkhart Lake thankfully being an exception. Most Nascar fans wouldn't stand for such a product, and for good reason, IMO.

Edkt... also Watmins Glen an exception.
 
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LewTheShoe said:
Short fields of 21 cars, and nearly half of 'em are occupied by pay drivers.
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I'm wondering what an "ideal" field looks like. Seems pretty standard for an open wheel series. Mid-20's might be the ceiling. There's no doubt in my mind trying to run 34 cars around Las Vegas played a large role in the death of Dan Wheldon.

I can think of a handful who bring at least some sort of personal backing? Aleshin, Kimball, Munoz, Sato, Chilton. Three of those guys are solid, Sato at least shows pace, and Chilton is just kinda there. I would say the grid has as much talent and depth as it has in a while.

At least their upcoming rule changes include making cars less aero dependent, not more. >.> F1
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I can't figure that out. With the rebound in housing construction, you'd think all those new home owners would be buying things.
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They are. The stores are doing fine. But the company has wasted a ton of money on failed ventures at the corporate level, so the cuts had to come somewhere. I could elaborate further but I've already derailed this thread enough. Long story short, they don't want Amazon to put them out of business.
 
LewTheShoe said:
That is your opinion. You know what they say about opinions...

I'm an Indycar fan from waaay back, nearly 60 years, but my opinion is sharply different from yours. If Nascar fans were subjected to a product as anemic as modern Indycar, the Internet would explode and burn to the ground IMO. Short fields of 21 cars, and nearly half of 'em are occupied by pay drivers. Spec cars in a way Nascar can't even imagine, every one from the exact same production line. Low power with tons (literally tons) of downforce. Every oval race is completely aero dominated. Every steet race and most of the road races are follow-the-leader and hope for a pass via pit strategy... Elkhart Lake thankfully being an exception. Most Nascar fans wouldn't stand for such a product, and for good reason, IMO.

Edkt... also Watmins Glen an exception.
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They are getting a new rule package I thought in 2018 and different bodies to look more like Indy Cars again, yes it's my opinion I stated that earlier. To me Indy Car is more enjoyable than NASCAR right now. But I love both equally and just want to see both succeed.
 
NASCAR owners react to WSJ article on the state of the sport

http://www.racer.com/nascar/item/138374-nascar-owners-react-to-wsj-article-on-the-state-of-the-sport

Some of NASCAR's most prominent team owners have taken exception to a recent Wall Street Journal article questioning the health of the sport and its leadership.

When asked about the story during a Toyota manufacturer's press conference Saturday, Joe Gibbs gave the most passionate response. Revealing that he had been interviewed for the story, Gibbs said not one of the comments he made was published.

"What was brought up in that article is that the management team, Brian France, Lesa (France Kennedy, CEO of International Speedway Corporation) and everybody, it's hard for them to make good decisions, fast decisions," Gibbs said. "I think nothing could be farther from the truth."

Gibbs noted how much change has occurred across the sport, such as the addition of the playoffs, charters, and now stage racing. He added that was accomplished because of the collaboration between Brian France and other key stakeholders. The WSJ could have written the story differently, Gibbs felt, but it appeared to him the direction, regardless of the interviews conducted, had already been determined.
.....
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Its no surprise that big news outlets spin interviews. FFS, the WSJ all but destroyed Felix Kjellberg (Pewdiepie) for no reason.

But Coach Gibbs also cannot be oblivious to the sport's shortcomings.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I feel like Lowe's offers a product that is difficult to buy off of the internet (without paying massive shipping) at least.
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And generally offers products I'm not willing to wait for.
The Nature Boy said:
Lowe's and Home Depot allow you to buy 2x4s online. It's possible but your local UPS driver might hate you.
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Especially those 4x4x10 I use for bird feeder posts. Or those bags of mulch and potting soil. Or that 35lb. bag of sunflower seed.

Okay, I guess I could have waited 4-6 days for the toilet valve replacement kit. Since that was less than $10, I would have paid S&H on top of the water I was losing. Screw that with the cordless drill I bought on sale ... at the store.
 
BobbyFord said:
Lowe's is 3 miles away.
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Maybe some of the troubles with Lowes stems from what a co-worker told me Friday..... He went to Lowes Thursday night to buy 2 industrial storage racks and 32 heavy storage tubs. Lowes didn't have but a few tubs.... the tubs were $14.99 and the racks were $219.00....... he drove across the street to Home Depot and they had the very same tubs for $8.99 and the identical racks for $169.00....... He saved $300.00......... That's pretty crazy stuff there.
 
kymartin6 said:
Maybe some of the troubles with Lowes stems from what a co-worker told me Friday..... He went to Lowes Thursday night to buy 2 industrial storage racks and 32 heavy storage tubs. Lowes didn't have but a few tubs.... the tubs were $14.99 and the racks were $219.00....... he drove across the street to Home Depot and they had the very same tubs for $8.99 and the identical racks for $169.00....... He saved $300.00......... That's pretty crazy stuff there.
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Wow, quite a difference. I usually check both stores because they often carry different brands of the same item. I look online and then go to buy.
We have a real hardware store near me that I go to for certain items. A lot of the stuff at Lowe's or Home Depot is cheap Chinese crap.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Pocono doesn't even get 50K in the stands anymore even though they have huge populations within 90 minutes of the track.
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Pocono is the closest track to me(NYC) but its also one of the worst tracks to watch a race at. Besides the front stretch you have horrendous views of the rest of the track. Why spend all that money and time to go watch a poor view of the race? I did it once and would never go back. Dover is other closest track to me but at least there isn't a bad seat there. It's a shame we didn't get a track here like they tried to build before all the whiners shot it down.
 
StewartHaas-Gibbs Racing said:
Pocono is the closest track to me(NYC) but its also one of the worst tracks to watch a race at. Besides the front stretch you have horrendous views of the rest of the track. Why spend all that money and time to go watch a poor view of the race? I did it once and would never go back. Dover is other closest track to me but at least there isn't a bad seat there. It's a shame we didn't get a track here like they tried to build before all the whiners shot it down.
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That 3/4 mile Staten Island track would have been great. Damn the local opposition.
 
kymartin6 said:
Maybe some of the troubles with Lowes stems from what a co-worker told me Friday..... He went to Lowes Thursday night to buy 2 industrial storage racks and 32 heavy storage tubs. Lowes didn't have but a few tubs.... the tubs were $14.99 and the racks were $219.00....... he drove across the street to Home Depot and they had the very same tubs for $8.99 and the identical racks for $169.00....... He saved $300.00......... That's pretty crazy stuff there.
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Huh. I usually find both stores are pretty close in price.

In case anyone doesn't know, both offer a 10% military discount every day. I don't think there's a way to get that shopping on the web.
 
Acs said:
"Roger Penske, a race-team owner, says the typical Nascar fan makes $ 35,000 to $45,000 a year. Nascar says average household income of fans is $70,000, close to the U.S. average, citing data from Nielsen Scarborough."

Yep, they're clueless.
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And yet, Penske and the other team owners are no better, given idiotic decisions they've made like the Charter System and the Repair Ban that enrich only the RTA members and strangle entry by new owners into the Cup Series.
 
Roman Nodonyet said:
And yet, Penske and the other team owners are no better, given idiotic decisions they've made like the Charter System and the Repair Ban that enrich only the RTA members and strangle entry by new owners into the Cup Series.
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Given his success in the business and racing worlds, it's reasonable to assume that Roger Penske is not an idiot.
 
aunty dive said:
Given his success in the business and racing worlds, it's reasonable to assume that Roger Penske is not an idiot.
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Smart people can make dumb decisions and say dumb things. I'll even admit to having done as such before, possibly w/in that post by tacitly calling Penske an idiot.

That said, it seems likely that Penske was looking at this from the viewpoint of maximizing his own revenue rather than what's good for the sport as a whole. Alternatively, he may have been opposed to the system but been outvoted by other RTA members who like Kauffman's approach to NASCAR ownership.

Really, the opaque nature of the RTA means that we will never know the true motivations of the owners involved, unless someone comes forward (anonymously or otherwise) and reveals what went on in the meetings that led to the Charter system, and to other RTA-era changes like Segmentation or the Repair Ban. (and you can bet the RTA had their say on both of those) All we can do is judge the decisions on how they impact the sport, and for creating a near-impenetrable wall to effective NASCAR ownership for those not already in the sport, I (and others) say the Charters are a bad idea.
 
Roman Nodonyet said:
Smart people can make dumb decisions and say dumb things. I'll even admit to having done as such before, possibly w/in that post by tacitly calling Penske an idiot.

That said, it seems likely that Penske was looking at this from the viewpoint of maximizing his own revenue rather than what's good for the sport as a whole. Alternatively, he may have been opposed to the system but been outvoted by other RTA members who like Kauffman's approach to NASCAR ownership.

Really, the opaque nature of the RTA means that we will never know the true motivations of the owners involved, unless someone comes forward (anonymously or otherwise) and reveals what went on in the meetings that led to the Charter system, and to other RTA-era changes like Segmentation or the Repair Ban. (and you can bet the RTA had their say on both of those) All we can do is judge the decisions on how they impact the sport, and for creating a near-impenetrable wall to effective NASCAR ownership for those not already in the sport, I (and others) say the Charters are a bad idea.
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The franchised owners of MLB, NBA AND NHL teams make sure their business affairs are conducted behind closed doors. Why would the RTA behave differently?

If I was a Cup team owner, I would be very pleased to have added a significant asset(s) to my balance sheet. The entry fee for expansion teams in the big leagues of other sports runs into the hundreds of millions of dollars. Cup racing is cheap.
 
aunty dive said:
The franchised owners of MLB, NBA AND NHL teams make sure their business affairs are conducted behind closed doors. Why would the RTA behave differently?

If I was a Cup team owner, I would be very pleased to have added a significant asset(s) to my balance sheet. The entry fee for expansion teams in the big leagues of other sports runs into the hundreds of millions of dollars. Cup racing is cheap.
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I think that's part of the appeal for would-be team owners. But the Charter system makes it more expensive, or more difficult if you won't or can't pay the expense. (after all, the RTA effectively decides who gets the Charters, NASCAR can only block a sale, and can only force a sale if the team doesn't meet the competition standard. They can't directly tell the RTA who to choose to sell to.) I can't help but look at it from the position of the have-nots, who are going under or barely scraping by, rather than the haves who might be concerned about becoming a have-not later but were already being favored by the system previously in place.

I don't agree w/ any behind-the-door dealings. That kind of approach inevitably breeds corruption and selfishness. That goes for other major sporting leagues as well. For example, open doors would've gotten the NFL Concussion Scandal into the open much sooner, maybe even prevented things like Junior Seau's suicide.
 
Roman Nodonyet said:
I think that's part of the appeal for would-be team owners. But the Charter system makes it more expensive, or more difficult if you won't or can't pay the expense. (after all, the RTA effectively decides who gets the Charters, NASCAR can only block a sale, and can only force a sale if the team doesn't meet the competition standard. They can't directly tell the RTA who to choose to sell to.) I can't help but look at it from the position of the have-nots, who are going under or barely scraping by, rather than the haves who might be concerned about becoming a have-not later but were already being favored by the system previously in place.

I don't agree w/ any behind-the-door dealings. That kind of approach inevitably breeds corruption and selfishness. That goes for other major sporting leagues as well. For example, open doors would've gotten the NFL Concussion Scandal into the open much sooner, maybe even prevented things like Junior Seau's suicide.
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Some good old fashioned hyperbole at the end, Roman. Good stuff.

Time goes by and things change. The opportunities for small independent race teams exist elsewhere. You and I might not like that but it's reality. Cup racing is big business.
 
aunty dive said:
Some good old fashioned hyperbole at the end, Roman. Good stuff.

Time goes by and things change. The opportunities for small independent race teams exist elsewhere. You and I might not like that but it's reality. Cup racing is big business.
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My big fear is that the anti-independent crusade will drive NASCAR completely out of business in my lifetime. I've seen first hand what short-sighted business practices can and will do to companies and the individuals they employ. I'll also admit that I'm not fond of change, especially the kinds of change that I've experienced through my teenage years and early adulthood.
 
The owners could see where NASCAR was heading, the charters are keeping the owners from losing the lions share of their investment. I think Penske learned a lot of things about racing management, when he (and the other owners) tried to split off of Indycar several years ago. The only thing the IRL had going for it was the 500, but that was enough for them to survive. NASCAR is ripe for a new sanctioning body to take control, the problem is NASCAR still would have control of the Daytona 500. Brian France is leading NASCAR to the same place Indycar has already been. Someone from the France family needs to give Brian the boot, before they have to start all over again. It looks to me that his sister could stop the bleeding, but can't, because Brian is making decisions without consulting her, before he makes them. It looks like there are two CEO's, and neither one tells the other, in advance of the changes they make. Any ship can only have one captain, and since Brian isn't even a racing fan, he needs to go. Since he has sold his interests in NASCAR, what is he still doing there? He is a college dropout that enjoys playing CEO of a sports company. She needs to talk with someone like Tony Stewart, as how to manage what Brian has control of, and use ISC to leverage Brian out of the picture. She needs to quit trying to market the sport to corporations, and return to letting the product market itself. That's the role Tony Stewart, or another former driver, needs to be in. They need someone that is a real racing fan, like Bill Sr. and Bill Jr. in charge of that role. Without that, they are going to make the same mistakes Indycar did. I'm not sure if the Daytona 500 alone, is enough to keep the sport alive.
 
Roman Nodonyet said:
Smart people can make dumb decisions and say dumb things. I'll even admit to having done as such before, possibly w/in that post by tacitly calling Penske an idiot.

That said, it seems likely that Penske was looking at this from the viewpoint of maximizing his own revenue rather than what's good for the sport as a whole. Alternatively, he may have been opposed to the system but been outvoted by other RTA members who like Kauffman's approach to NASCAR ownership.

Really, the opaque nature of the RTA means that we will never know the true motivations of the owners involved, unless someone comes forward (anonymously or otherwise) and reveals what went on in the meetings that led to the Charter system, and to other RTA-era changes like Segmentation or the Repair Ban. (and you can bet the RTA had their say on both of those) All we can do is judge the decisions on how they impact the sport, and for creating a near-impenetrable wall to effective NASCAR ownership for those not already in the sport, I (and others) say the Charters are a bad idea.
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Your ill-informed misguided rant about the charter system makes no economic sense. In this zero sum game, you would strip away cash flow that is crucial to the survival of numerous existing teams, and offer it to hypothetical new entrants that don't have the capital to build a viable race team. It is a Days Of Thunder, Harry Hogge-esque fantasy... but the economic reality is far different.

Nascar's ongoing survival depends upon a cast of race teams showing up *every week* that are ready to race. That is hard to do, even with the financial benefits of owning a charter. Just ask Tommy Baldwin or Harry Scott. Ask Richard Petty and Andy Murstein. These are the guys that Nascar's business model has to support, as well as new entrants that can actually succeed such as Barney Visser and Tad Geschickter.

IMO your rants about the evil greedy men who own Nascar race teams are misguided and clueless about basic economic realities.
 
This article is starting to fall apart.

Looks to me, as a journalist, like they had the article written before talking to anyone, then talked to a few owners to plug a few quotes in and only included the parts that fit their narrative.

Quotes go on the chopping block all the time, but it looks to me like the owners were mis-represented bigly.

I can't tell you how many times I've written a story and called a driver to get a quote to plug in and then, after talking to them, deleted my draft and started from scratch because of what their comments were. That's how good, honest, responsible journalism works.

The WSJ article created the narrative that the owners think there's no leadership in NASCAR and nobody trying to right the ship. Turns out they think just the opposite, that NASCAR is trying to make changes.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I can't tell you how many times I've written a story and called a driver to get a quote to plug in and then, after talking to them, deleted my draft and started from scratch because of what their comments were. That's how good, honest, responsible journalism works.
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Also, this is what I think of the trash the USA Today published on Sunday night/Monday morning. I think the writer had already written an article about Chase Elliott winning or a column about how Chase Elliott's win being a big day in NASCAR history and when Kurt Busch won, he had to delete his drafts. Just my educated opinion.
 
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