Enough Is Enough Full Season Championship.

HoneyBadger said:
Do you think a scientific poll exists?

Every time there’s a poll on this online, it’s overwhelming. But that’s not good enough for playoff defenders.
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I have read doing research that the con side says that only real engaged fans want the 36 race season. So like Duh, who are more important? Engaged fans or casuals that watch races when it is convenient for their schedules or disappear when football starts?
 
DaleJrFan2003 said:
I read Bob’s article and as usual for playoff defense, it’s mostly complete nonsense. Has all the usually strawmen, such as “good points day” and “playoffs make wins matter.” Both of which are nonsense, but it’s especially annoying since Bob has been covering this Motorsport for like 30 years now, so he of all people should know better.
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Has he really been covering it for 30 years?
 
According to Wikipedia, Bob Pockrass began covering NASCAR in 1991. Wikipedia
So as of 2025, he’s been covering NASCAR for about 34 years.

I just posted an interview of Bob with Kevin Harvick. It's pretty good. He does know a lot about the various spheres of influence in the Nascar world. He let the cat out of the bag when he said he was a big fan of the old 10 race playoffs they had. Harvick was for the 36 full season.
 
Naitch said:
I honestly don’t care what format we use, I just know NASCAR’s fanbase and how they react to things.
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I've said as much. I also said that, if Chase Elliott wins the title this year, you'll suddenly see a change in tune from the perpetually online NASCAR fans.

But the playoffs are objectively the most polarizing thing NASCAR's ever done, outside of taking the Southern 500 away and taking North Wilkesboro away. But those two errors have since been un****ed.
 
HoneyBadger said:
I've said as much. I also said that, if Chase Elliott wins the title this year, you'll suddenly see a change in tune from the perpetually online NASCAR fans.

But the playoffs are objectively the most polarizing thing NASCAR's ever done, outside of taking the Southern 500 away and taking North Wilkesboro away. But those two errors have since been un****ed.
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I disagree. I don't think it will raise the needle much myself. When has the last race ever had big ratings? Never. When have rating decreased in general over the years? Since they have had the playoffs.
 
StandOnIt said:
I disagree. I don't think it will raise the needle much myself. When has the last race ever had big ratings? Never. When have rating decreased in general over the years? Since they have had the playoffs.
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Since this format was introduced in 2014, we saw Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Dale Jr all retire within a few years of each other. And we haven't had any dynamic personality come in since then.

The MLB is seeing growth because of Shohei Othani, Paul Skenes and Aaron Judge. The WNBA is experiencing explosive growth because of Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese and Paige Bueckers. The NFL has seen growth because of the presence of Taylor Swift, plus you have guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

NASCAR has Chase Elliott.

Casual sports fans can probably name five WNBA players off the top of their head and can't name a single NASCAR driver. That's a problem. That's the biggest problem.
 
Naitch said:
This says more about the average fan than it does NASCAR. It’s not difficult to understand and does a better job of rewarding regular season performance than The Chase ever did.
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Race points, stage points, playoff points, regular season bonus points, point resets, ... get my point?

Hell, until this year, I thought only the regular season leader got bonus points going into the playoffs.
 
HoneyBadger said:
Since this format was introduced in 2014, we saw Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Dale Jr all retire within a few years of each other. And we haven't had any dynamic personality come in since then.

The MLB is seeing growth because of Shohei Othani, Paul Skenes and Aaron Judge. The WNBA is experiencing explosive growth because of Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese and Paige Bueckers. The NFL has seen growth because of the presence of Taylor Swift, plus you have guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

NASCAR has Chase Elliott.

Casual sports fans can probably name five WNBA players off the top of their head and can't name a single NASCAR driver. That's a problem. That's the biggest problem.
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That doesn't work either. Larson with his cross platforming is hugely popular, Harvick, Hamlin, Earnhardt Jr.,, and I can go on and on with Nascar personalities who are active with Nascar. Again Racing isn't like your stick an ball. It's hugely financed with tax dollars, bonds etc. Much cheaper to get into stick an ball sports etc. It's just pretty stupid to compare the two.
 
StandOnIt said:
Larson with his cross platforming is hugely popular
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The average person does not give two ****s about open wheel dirt racing. Larson is popular because he races for HMS, is a genuinely exciting driver to watch, and (for some people) he was a victim of “cancel culture.”

And even with all of that, he’s still not a name that is familiar to the average person.
 
StandOnIt said:
That doesn't work either. Larson with his cross platforming is hugely popular, Harvick, Hamlin, Earnhardt Jr.,, and I can go on and on with Nascar personalities who are active with Nascar. Again Racing isn't like your stick an ball. It's hugely financed with tax dollars, bonds etc. Much cheaper to get into stick an ball sports etc. It's just pretty stupid to compare the two.
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Harvick, a commentator on FOX.

Jr, commentator on Prime and TNT, races in the CARS Tour.

Kyle Larson is not a household name.
 
Naitch said:
The average person does not give two ****s about open wheel dirt racing. Larson is popular because he races for HMS, is a genuinely exciting driver to watch, and (for some people) he was a victim of “cancel culture.”

And even with all of that, he’s still not a name that is familiar to the average person.
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Again, are you comparing him to stick and ball? He's a big draw in motorsports. BTW, I would be hard pressed to know any stick n ball players. Believe it or not there are people who could care less.

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StandOnIt said:
Again, are you comparing him to stick and ball? He's a big draw in motorsports. BTW, I would be hard pressed to know any stick n ball players. Believe it or not there are people who could care less.

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I am comparing him to his predecessors, who had mainstream notoriety and brought eyes to the sport. Dale Jr. and Jeff Gordon were household names. Gordon is still the only driver to host SNL.

There is no driver today with an ounce of the mainstream notoriety that drivers had 15-20 years ago.
 
And before you yell “STICK AND BALL” or whatever else, the decline in mainstream popularity impacts all of us as fans. NASCAR relies on corporate dollars and they need proof of return on their investment. Race fans benefit when NASCAR is popular.
 
Naitch said:
I am comparing him to his predecessors, who had mainstream notoriety and brought eyes to the sport. Dale Jr. and Jeff Gordon were household names. Gordon is still the only driver to host SNL.

There is no driver today with an ounce of the mainstream notoriety that drivers had 15-20 years ago.
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That's your opinion. Larson doing both Indy 500 and the 600 I believe put Larson's name out there and Owning a Dirt sprint series that immediately competed with the World of Outlaws is pretty impressive. This isn't 30 years ago when all there was is TV for entertainment.
 
Naitch said:
And before you yell “STICK AND BALL” or whatever else, the decline in mainstream popularity impacts all of us as fans. NASCAR relies on corporate dollars and they need proof of return on their investment. Race fans benefit when NASCAR is popular.
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I'll post whatever I care to, you don't seem to be having any trouble.
Well I agree to that. It's the reason I started this thread. I think this playoff nonsense has run it's course. Sounded like a good idea at the time, but change after change trying to make it fair and legit, continue to insult fans of the sport. It's a clown show.
 
StandOnIt said:
That's your opinion. Larson doing both Indy 500 and the 600 I believe put Larson's name out there and Owning a Dirt sprint series that immediately competed with the World of Outlaws is pretty impressive.
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It’s not my opinion, it is a fact. No one outside of racing circles cares about Dirt sprint racing. It is a niche within a niche. World of Outlaws isn’t even on the mainstream radar.

If anyone in the mainstream has heard of Larson, it’s because of his iRacing incident. NASCAR does a poor job of marketing its stars.
 
Naitch said:
It’s not my opinion, it is a fact. No one outside of racing circles cares about Dirt sprint racing. It is a niche within a niche. World of Outlaws isn’t even on the mainstream radar.

If anyone in the mainstream has heard of Larson, it’s because of his iRacing incident. NASCAR does a poor job of marketing its stars.
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There are over 700 dirt oval race tracks currently in operation in the U.S. according to the National Speedway Directory.

I call B.S. and everybody who attends and races at those tracks know who Kyle Larson is.
 
HoneyBadger said:
The good thing about them, they're built-in commercial breaks.
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I could do without them. Just keep the race going and catch me up on any significant events at the end of the commercial.

Cautions are definitely needed for safety concerns but that should be the only case. Cautions breed cautions, and they do not enhance the competition imo.
Using them as a handicap to tighten up the field is an insult to the intelligence imo.
 
StandOnIt said:
There are over 700 dirt oval race tracks currently in operation in the U.S. according to the National Speedway Directory.

I call B.S. and everybody who attends and races at those tracks know who Kyle Larson is.
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Nobody’s denying Kyle Larson is huge in dirt racing circles. If you’re a hardcore sprint fan or even just a semi-regular at a dirt track, yeah, you probably know who he is. Totally fair to call him a superstar within the dirt world.

But that’s the key, within the dirt world.
700 tracks doesn’t equal mass reach. There may be 700+ dirt ovals, but most are tiny, seasonal, and community-based.

Mainstream = recognition outside the bubble. Kyle Larson could walk through most airports in America without being recognized. Compare that to an NFL starter, a top NBA player, or even a mid-tier MLB guy. That’s mainstream. Dirt racing isn’t in that stratosphere.

Biggest events are still niche. Knoxville Nationals might draw 20k, Eldora can fill the stands, and the Chili Bowl is famous in racing circles, but these aren’t national TV staples. Casual sports fans don’t even know they exist. That’s not mainstream penetration, that’s a strong niche.

Bottom line: Larson is a star in dirt racing, no question. But dirt sprint racing as a whole doesn’t break into mainstream sports culture. It has very passionate fans, but it’s not NFL, NBA, or even NASCAR Cup level when it comes to broad popularity.
 
StandOnIt said:
There are over 700 dirt oval race tracks currently in operation in the U.S. according to the National Speedway Directory.

I call B.S. and everybody who attends and races at those tracks know who Kyle Larson is.
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The High Limits broadcast on FS1 earlier this year, which was on a Wednesday night and featured Kyle Larson, drew 239,000 viewers.

The zMAX CARS Tour broadcast on FS1 earlier this year, which was on a Friday night (the "death slot" for TV) and featured no NASCAR Cup Series drivers, averaged 253,000 viewers and peaked at 365,000 viewers.

This past weekend's ValleyStar 300 was watched by over 125,000 viewers on The NASCAR Channel and FloRacing.

So dirt fans worship Kyle Larson. That's also such a small percentage of the general public. So small that more people are watching the CARS Tour, which I've been told on this forum is some nothing series nobody follows.
 
Greg said:
I could do without them. Just keep the race going and catch me up on any significant events at the end of the commercial.

Cautions are definitely needed for safety concerns but that should be the only case. Cautions breed cautions, and they do not enhance the competition imo.
Using them as a handicap to tighten up the field is an insult to the intelligence imo.
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Stage break cautions are needed for full screen commercials.
 
StandOnIt said:
That is what they are designed for. Fans were complaining about the commercials covering up the racing. Now they want the full screen commercials back it looks like.
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Keeping the stages allows for four built in full screen commercial breaks per race, if utilized properly. Go to commercial at end of stage, come back for pit stops, go back to break, come back for green. That would allow the rest of the race to be shown without interruption through side-by-side, as Amazon Prime and FOX did. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for FS1 and USA.
 
HoneyBadger said:
The High Limits broadcast on FS1 earlier this year, which was on a Wednesday night and featured Kyle Larson, drew 239,000 viewers.

The zMAX CARS Tour broadcast on FS1 earlier this year, which was on a Friday night (the "death slot" for TV) and featured no NASCAR Cup Series drivers, averaged 253,000 viewers and peaked at 365,000 viewers.

This past weekend's ValleyStar 300 was watched by over 125,000 viewers on The NASCAR Channel and FloRacing.

So dirt fans worship Kyle Larson. That's also such a small percentage of the general public. So small that more people are watching the CARS Tour, which I've been told on this forum is some nothing series nobody follows.
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I watched the High limit on Flo. I wonder if they counted all of the flo viewership. I forgot it was on YouTube.
 
Naitch said:
Nobody’s denying Kyle Larson is huge in dirt racing circles. If you’re a hardcore sprint fan or even just a semi-regular at a dirt track, yeah, you probably know who he is. Totally fair to call him a superstar within the dirt world.

But that’s the key, within the dirt world.
700 tracks doesn’t equal mass reach. There may be 700+ dirt ovals, but most are tiny, seasonal, and community-based.

Mainstream = recognition outside the bubble. Kyle Larson could walk through most airports in America without being recognized. Compare that to an NFL starter, a top NBA player, or even a mid-tier MLB guy. That’s mainstream. Dirt racing isn’t in that stratosphere.

Biggest events are still niche. Knoxville Nationals might draw 20k, Eldora can fill the stands, and the Chili Bowl is famous in racing circles, but these aren’t national TV staples. Casual sports fans don’t even know they exist. That’s not mainstream penetration, that’s a strong niche.

Bottom line: Larson is a star in dirt racing, no question. But dirt sprint racing as a whole doesn’t break into mainstream sports culture. It has very passionate fans, but it’s not NFL, NBA, or even NASCAR Cup level when it comes to broad popularity.
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Once again stick an ball comparisons don't work. You win the popularity contest in a racing forum on a racing thread. That isn't the point.
 
StandOnIt said:
It pulled good for a Wednesday night.
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CARS Tour pulled good for a Friday night.

And Wednesday night is a much better timeslot. Friday night is where shows are sent to die.

Regardless, my point is that dirt racing does not have mainstream popularity. Right now, the only motorsports events that are mainstream are F1 and the Indianapolis 500.
 
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