23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

I know this has been a tough time for many and there may be some doubts. Why is diabolical Danny getting to degenerate everything?

But life will go on and there will be more springs and summers for us, and one day the pain will become less intense.

Then it wil a good time to look back at these 102 plus pages. They will keep on growing just like the Red Fern grew for old Dan and little Ann, and we will have the peace about it all that we deserve.

One day you will remember that time you was to exhausted to hold up that smartphone and post that last word for the day. When the arm trembled to hold the phone and the tired posting finger trembled in fatigue. You will remember that you didnt give up until you got in the last word.

That's when you will know it was worth it all, and that when the time is right you will be able to encouage your future grandchildren with stories about your courageous journey.

Stay strong and GodSpeed my friends, this is the life.
 
Greg said:
Where the Red Fern grows is a story that is very similar to "old Yellar" about a boy and two beloved dogs that died.
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Ah. Sorry, zero point of reference regarding Red Fern. I'm with you on Yeller, although I probably cried harder when Charlotte the spider died. Eventually I learned to avoid media with a dog, since they almost never survive.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
My understanding from somewhere is both sides are sniveling over who pays for the lawyers. My prediction is they'll each wind up footing their own bills (which continue to grow as they delay).
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Just going back to the Athletic piece, it is two things:

1) The legal fees: also *HILARIOUS* to me that anyone thinks the defendant in a trial willing to settle it would get their legal fees reimbursed. But I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is that NASCAR doesn't want to pay the plaintiff's legal fees obviously. I also think 23XI/FRM will eat that.

2) The charter payments. Maybe this wasn't clear, but the settlement returns the charters to the teams which were taken from them at the start of the year for, you know, suing NASCAR for antitrust violations. What it wasn't doing was giving them the money they would have earned had they had the charters NASCAR took from them as punitive action for bringing the lawsuit. Remember, that's the whole point of the charters in the first place: to get paid your cut of the revenue sharing package based on results. 23XI had some results this year which would have merited some big time playoff payouts. You know what they don't get right now? Payouts for making the playoffs.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I recall reading that money was put in escrow in case of a settlement or a NASCAR loss. Maybe I'm misremembering again.
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That relates to the transaction of 23XI buying the SHR charter; the money and charter for that transaction were put in escrow depending on the result of the trial. While a settlement under the terms discussed a few days ago would put that transaction through, what it wouldn't do is lead to 23XI getting paid for having the charter this season. NASCAR just wants to only pay 30 teams instead of 36 this year and their argument is basically that if 23XI and FRM would have been left alone if they simply didn't ask NASCAR to stop hitting them.
 
virtualbalboa said:
2) The charter payments. Maybe this wasn't clear, but the settlement returns the charters to the teams which were taken from them at the start of the year for, you know, suing NASCAR for antitrust violations.
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Stop misconstruing what happened. They didn’t get to keep charters because THEY DIDN’T SIGN THE CHARTER AGREEMENT.

Go try to lease a car without signing the documentation.
 
Conover said:
Stop misconstruing what happened. They didn’t get to keep charters because THEY DIDN’T SIGN THE CHARTER AGREEMENT.

Go try to lease a car without signing the documentation.
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I'm not misconstruing anything. They didn't sign the agreement and instead filed suit against NASCAR. NASCAR apparently thinks enough of their suit to now give them the charters forever (which was the sticking point) but doesn't want to give them the money they'd be owed from keeping the charters they will have again because, obviously, they want to keep the cash. NASCAR can choose to not give them anything of course and they can choose to go to trial and NASCAR may wind up losing very, very badly. You may want to argue that everyone in the case should be in contempt for being biased against NASCAR, but that isn't going to happen.
 
Speedbowl14 said:
Anyone else think $100 million net income is surprisingly low for a sports league the size of NASCAR? That is an interesting fact, especially with total revenue of $1.7 billion.
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What is the comparison point? The 2024 net income for TKO Group (who owns the UFC, WWE, and PBR) had net income of 6.4 million against total revenue of 2.8 billion. NASCAR has 330 million in debt against 1.1 billion in assets and made (net income) 600 million dollars in the last two years.
 
Pockrass showed a document that outlines revenue and costs for a number of anonymous teams. Some had paper losses, others had some profit. Here’s the problem; no details were provided. Financial statements aren’t helpful without detailed accounting. What are the costs? Where are the expenses coming from? Why is one small revenue team making money while another one bringing in $38M per year has a net loss?

I’ve explained this before. NASCAR teams can overspend, on facilities, employees, company vehicles, travel, research and development, salaries, before any added racing expenses are factored in (such as destroyed equipment from wrecks beyond the amount budgeted). They can live lavishly, paying their drivers, executives and themselves big salaries, living in mammoth homes. These expenses are taken into account when paying income taxes. In fact, LOSING money can sometimes help them write off even more, potentially avoiding any tax payments.

The guaranteed base money to every chartered team is huge! But mean old NASCAR is an evil monopolist. 🙄
 
virtualbalboa said:
I'm not misconstruing anything. They didn't sign the agreement and instead filed suit against NASCAR. NASCAR apparently thinks enough of their suit to now give them the charters forever (which was the sticking point) but doesn't want to give them the money they'd be owed from keeping the charters they will have again because, obviously, they want to keep the cash. NASCAR can choose to not give them anything of course and they can choose to go to trial and NASCAR may wind up losing very, very badly. You may want to argue that everyone in the case should be in contempt for being biased against NASCAR, but that isn't going to happen.
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Geez…you throw terms around like a sailor on leave. The settlement discussed is not “charters forever”. It is charters leased to teams through this period, and guaranteed through the next rights period. The expectation is for these to be somewhat evergreen BUT there is no guarantee, nor do teams outright OWN these.

Nuance matters, especially in legal documents and agreements. The fact that the Jordan cabal sued NASCAR is incidental to their not signing the charter agreement. By not signing the agreement by the deadline their charters were rendered null and void…at that moment. They could have signed and then filed suit, but they didn’t. So NASCAR didn’t remove their charters DUE to the lawsuit. That’s my point.
 
Conover said:
Geez…you throw terms around like a sailor on leave. The settlement discussed is not “charters forever”. It is charters leased to teams through this period, and guaranteed through the next rights period. The expectation is for these to be somewhat evergreen BUT there is no guarantee, nor do teams outright OWN these.
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That is literally the language being used: "evergreen". Not "pseudoevergreen" or "somewhat evergreen" but "evergreen", and it existing in this format will also make it difficult for NASCAR to just break that later at will. Also extending the charters past the next rights period was not happening without the lawsuit, so that is pretty obviously a win for the teams that basically justifies the last year of legal wrangling. We've already had that set of replies though a couple pages ago. Not sure I'd want to revisit that if I was you.

Conover said:
Nuance matters, especially in legal documents and agreements. The fact that the Jordan cabal sued NASCAR is incidental to their not signing the charter agreement.
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It isn't remotely incidental. They are directly connected. This is acknowledged by everyone.

Conover said:
By not signing the agreement by the deadline their charters were rendered null and void…at that moment. They could have signed and then filed suit,
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That was not an option per the draft written agreements themselves. We also know this because of the lawsuit.

Conover said:
but they didn’t. So NASCAR didn’t remove their charters DUE to the lawsuit.
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Just so we're clear here: this is all just semantics. In practical terms this argument is irrelevant and just a way for NASCAR to try and justify their position. If NASCAR doesn't offer to pay them their charter team payments this year or any of the legal fees, this almost certainly goes to trial and what happens there may be a lot worse for NASCAR than merely needing to pay out $XX million dollars for 6 cars. Or NASCAR can hope that they can make collective bargaining illegal in America. I've had strong guesses as to which is the more likely scenario for awhile if it got that far and I bet you can guess which side of the fence I'm on. I still refuse to believe that will happen because it would be catastrophically stupid for NASCAR. Literally everyone including the judge is basically telling them this!
 
Conover said:
I’ve explained this before....
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LOL. Yes, you have offered a long series of novel interpretations and fanciful analyses of every aspect of the case. Please forgive me for looking elsewhere for fact-based and logical explanations of what's going on. You are too biased by your personal hatred for MJ, Hamlin, and their drivers, in my opinion.

Yesterday was especially amusing when you offered "facts" directly opposed to Jordan Bianchi's reporting. His sources were eight team owners and team executives plus two senior Nascar executives. And your sources...???
 
Huge loss for the France Family, NASCAR and their executive team. Money won’t change a thing here … an internal attitude adjustment is required in order to get things moving in the right direction.

At 200 mph, the drivers, the teams and the cars are the stars - not the suits.
 
LewTheShoe said:
LOL. Yes, you have offered a long series of novel interpretations and fanciful analyses of every aspect of the case. Please forgive me for looking elsewhere for fact-based and logical explanations of what's going on. You are too biased by your personal hatred for MJ, Hamlin, and their drivers, in my opinion.

Yesterday was especially amusing when you offered "facts" directly opposed to Jordan Bianchi's reporting. His sources were eight team owners and team executives plus two senior Nascar executives. And your sources...???
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LOL, I WAS speaking to the Bianchi article not attempting to claim some other source knowledge. I get your bias is every bit as cemented as what you claim mine is. So be it, we all have opinions, but I am realistic enough to not claim something not grounded in relative facts. Both sides will argue facts in court and claim how relative they are to existing law.

BTW I have no hate for Jordan. I don’t like what he’s doing. I have no hate for his drivers. I definitely despise Hamcrap. So what?

Ignore my posts if you’d like.
 
aunty dive said:
Huge loss for the France Family, NASCAR and their executive team. Money won’t change a thing here … an internal attitude adjustment is required in order to get things moving in the right direction.

At 200 mph, the drivers, the teams and the cars are the stars - not the suits.
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I went to Dave and Busters yesterday with my wife - hey, it's 1/2 price game night, OK? Anyhow, they have this:

www.laigames.com

NASCAR Pit Stop

Drop mini-Goodyear tires with perfect timing to fill the pit and win big—precision and skill make all the difference in NASCAR Pit Stop!
www.laigames.com www.laigames.com

Right by it was this:

Smash N Win NBA Edition - ICE: Innovative Concepts in Entertainment

www.icegame.com www.icegame.com

And this was nearby:

andamirousa.com

NFLPA Red Zone Rush Arcade Game - Andamiro USA

NFLPA Red Zone Rush challenges players to rush ball through zone to win tickets. Arcade game is made by Andamiro and marketed by Bandai Namco
andamirousa.com andamirousa.com

The NBA game had the balls with the teams on it. The NFL game gives out cards with the players on them. The NASCAR game is focused on lining up "tires" to win tickets. No manufacturers are represented here. No drivers are shown on the cabinet. No cars from the series appear on the game. You have the NASCAR logo and the Goodyear branded "tires" that you line up to win e-tickets. The more I started to think about it, the more I realized how most things I see that are branded or licensed around NASCAR often have nothing actually showing the drivers, cars, series, or teams that actually exist.
 
Hawaii808 said:
Heather Gibbs with the mic drop
(Steve Phelps got his shorts torched here)
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That was well written and sincere. While I do not believe all teams are as efficient and thrifty as they could be, I know the battle to control expenses AND stay top shelf competitive is real. I do not see the revenue stream granted by NASCAR as the issue or the answer.

Now that NASCAR has offered up an “evergreen” charter solution, as Heather and others have requested, time for the teams to sign a charter agreement and settle. Let each side pay their own legal fees.
 
Conover said:
That was well written and sincere. While I do not believe all teams are as efficient and thrifty as they could be, I know the battle to control expenses AND stay top shelf competitive is real. I do not see the revenue stream granted by NASCAR as the issue or the answer.

Now that NASCAR has offered up an “evergreen” charter solution, as Heather and others have requested, time for the teams to sign a charter agreement and settle. Let each side pay their own legal fees.
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It will never be enough.
 
MJ's ballpark net worth is around 3.8B (google). Its curious
why he chose this battle when 80% of the other owners are
ok with the charters. Its amazing these docs have been made
public before the trial. Boy when they start putting people
on the stand, this could get wild, if it gets that far.
 
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