23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

It looks like it will be disappointing to many of the haters. Doesn't look like much about finances will be admitted in court or dirty laundry. We'll see.
 
StandOnIt said:
The reality is there isn't any and won't be any competing "stock car" series. That part is B.S., not at the Nascar, Indy car, or F-1 level is that going to happen. Nobody is going to be clamoring to build a mile and a half track, no city is going to get the tax payers to pay for it like sports leagues can. Nascar brings tons of money to tracks that aren't owned by Nascar. Is it enough to operate for a year on what they bring? Anybody see any tracks that are hurting? I sure don't.
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Nascar races bring tons of money to the tracks whether owned by Nascar, SMI, or the legacy independents such as Indy and Pocono. You are right... these tracks are not hurting financially because the cup races are gold mines for them. And Nascar owns most of them so Nascar is raking in tons of money from the race track portion of the distribution. However, new tracks that host races are cut out of the gravy train. Road America didn't get TV money, because Nascar leased Road America for the race weekend and Nascar pocketed the TV loot. Same thing with COTA... leased by SMI for the weekend so SMI could pocket the TV loot. I suspect the same for St. Louis, Chicago Street Race, Mexico City and others. I strongly suspect (but have no proof) that Montreal balked at hosting cup races without getting any TV money, which would explain why we don't have Montreal on the schedule.

Which brings me full circle to my first post in this thread... it is the team owners that are getting shafted by Nascar, not the track owners. And don't forget, Nascar is the predominant track owner, shifting tons of money from one pocket to another.

Since Nascar popularity peaked circa 2005-2007, teams have had increasing difficulty selling high-dollar sponsorships, and this has coincided with the emergence of costly aerodynamics and other expensive new technologies. The growth of the TV money has helped, but team ownership remains a borderline non-viable business model. Since the 2016 charters were agreed by Nascar and the teams, 22 of the 36 chartered cars have gone bust. This is not an economic track record that can attract the next generation of team owners of sufficient stature to replace Rick and Roger and Joe and Richard and Gene/Tony. We (and Nascar) are fortunate to have 23XI and Trackhouse arriving, but its not a fraction of what we need.

StandOnIt said:
The argument that the racing world would be a much better place if there are two competing stock car businesses? You have seen the numbers, I just posted them yesterday... You have lived thru the split of Indycar, seen what happened to them. This isn't football, the huddled masses aren't yearning for more auto racing on the television.
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The racing world doesn't need two competing stock car series, but what it does need is one premier stock car series that spreads the fruits of their collective labors in a more equitable manner. The best way to get there with the least risk of catastrophic outside intervention is for the parties to settle the suit. I think that is the most likely outcome.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Nascar races bring tons of money to the tracks whether owned by Nascar, SMI, or the legacy independents such as Indy and Pocono. You are right... these tracks are not hurting financially because the cup races are gold mines for them. And Nascar owns most of them so Nascar is raking in tons of money from the race track portion of the distribution. However, new tracks that host races are cut out of the gravy train. Road America didn't get TV money, because Nascar leased Road America for the race weekend and Nascar pocketed the TV loot. Same thing with COTA... leased by SMI for the weekend so SMI could pocket the TV loot. I suspect the same for St. Louis, Chicago Street Race, Mexico City and others. I strongly suspect (but have no proof) that Montreal balked at hosting cup races without getting any TV money, which would explain why we don't have Montreal on the schedule.

Which brings me full circle to my first post in this thread... it is the team owners that are getting shafted by Nascar, not the track owners. And don't forget, Nascar is the predominant track owner, shifting tons of money from one pocket to another.

Since Nascar popularity peaked circa 2005-2007, teams have had increasing difficulty selling high-dollar sponsorships, and this has coincided with the emergence of costly aerodynamics and other expensive new technologies. The growth of the TV money has helped, but team ownership remains a borderline non-viable business model. Since the 2016 charters were agreed by Nascar and the teams, 22 of the 36 chartered cars have gone bust. This is not an economic track record that can attract the next generation of team owners of sufficient stature to replace Rick and Roger and Joe and Richard and Gene/Tony. We (and Nascar) are fortunate to have 23XI and Trackhouse arriving, but its not a fraction of what we need.


The racing world doesn't need two competing stock car series, but what it does need is one premier stock car series that spreads the fruits of their collective labors in a more equitable manner. The best way to get there with the least risk of catastrophic outside intervention is for the parties to settle the suit. I think that is the most likely outcome.
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We all know which side I'm on here. The business model that the owners themselves created is what is making it not viable. Nascar isn't making them spend this money, its the arms race against one another that's doing it.

I swear it was an interview with Rick this week where he said that they're building a new pit crew training facility...Nascar doesn't require that of teams. Have you been to some of these shops? Yeah they look nice, but you don't need something like that to push race cars out the door. The list goes on and on.....
 
wi_racefan said:
We all know which side I'm on here. The business model that the owners themselves created is what is making it not viable. Nascar isn't making them spend this money, its the arms race against one another that's doing it.

I swear it was an interview with Rick this week where he said that they're building a new pit crew training facility...Nascar doesn't require that of teams. Have you been to some of these shops? Yeah they look nice, but you don't need something like that to push race cars out the door. The list goes on and on.....
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I would be willing to bet that Rick makes a ton of money "leasing" pit crews.
 
BarneyB1 said:
I would be willing to bet that Rick makes a ton of money "leasing" pit crews.
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We'll never know because HMS isn't going to open the books, but I'd be willing to guess hes not buying any of his corvette's with the profit he's making off them.

The objective is never to make money off leasing teams, its to build depth and offset the costs through leasing.
 
These discussions are the only times I ever hear people speak negatively about teams spending on trying to win races. Every other time ever in discussion of motorsports, people want to discuss all the wild tricks and advantages and occasional cheating teams did. But then when it comes to this lawsuit, teams spending money seeking to win is a negative and they should be punished. Do people think they're entitled to team owners losing money forever on racing?
 
Penske and HMS probably use the racing part of their business to be used as tax write offs. Teams that don't have the resources like those two have to spend more money just to try to keep up.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
How are you defining 'gone bust'? Does your list of 22 include teams like SHR and Ganassi, who sold because they were no longer interested in Cup racing?
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Hamlin himself said since 2016, 11 teams have gone out of business. Pretty sure most of that was a designed move made possible by the charter system. Lew has a short memory and has forgotten the number of start and park teams Nascar had at the time. Lower level start and parks were given a golden parachute because of the charters and were able to leave the sport while other interested buyers were able to enter the sport. The latest numbers say that the charters are worth upwards of 40 million apiece.
It also was mentioned Nascar's heyday years. Auto racing in general is on a decline. Books could probably be written about all of the reasons this is so. So yeah sponsorships and sponsorship money is going to continue to be tighter.
 
A North Carolina federal judge has ruled that NASCAR cannot block a damages expert from testifying at the upcoming antitrust trial, allowing the expert to present testimony on potentially hundreds of millions of dollars in losses claimed by 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports. This decision, issued on November 12, 2025, is a significant development as the trial, scheduled to begin on December 1, 2025, nears.

  • The judge's ruling ensures that the teams can present expert testimony on damages, a critical component of their case against NASCAR.
  • The damages expert's testimony will focus on losses allegedly suffered by the teams due to NASCAR's alleged anticompetitive practices, particularly concerning the charter system.
  • This decision follows a series of pretrial rulings that have favored the teams, including a finding that NASCAR holds monopsony power in the market for premier stock car racing.
  • The trial is now focused on whether NASCAR used its market power to suppress compensation opportunities for teams and drivers, including through exclusive dealing terms.
  • The judge has also urged both sides to consider settlement before the trial, noting that a trial outcome could be detrimental to all parties involved.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
How are you defining 'gone bust'? Does your list of 22 include teams like SHR and Ganassi, who sold because they were no longer interested in Cup racing?
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"Gone bust" = The chartered car is no longer racing under the original team owner. Of course SHR and Ganassi are included as those owners left primarily because they couldn't earn a profit.

#1, 42 Ganassi. Out of Nascar 2022.
#4, 10, 14 Stewart-Haas. Downsized in 2025.
#7 Baldwin. Out of Nascar 2017. Sold again 2021 & 2022.
#9 Petty. Downsized... leased 2017, sold 2019.
#13 Germain. Out of Nascar 2021.
#15, 55 Waltrip. Out of Nascar 2016.
#16 Roush Fenway. Downsized 2017.
#23 BK Racing Out of Nascar 2019. Sold again 2020 & 2022.
#27 RCR. Downsized 2018. Sold again 2022.
#32 GoFas Racing. Out of Nascar 2017.
#33 Circle Sport. Multiple sales 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020, 2024.
#47 JTG-D, Sold in late 2024, Geshecter out of Nascar.
#51 HScott. Out of Nascar 2017, sold again 2021.
#62 Premium. Leased 2016, sold 2018 & 2021.
#78 Furniture Row. Out of Nascar 2019, sold again 2021.
#83 BK Racing. Downsized 2017, sold again 2018.

Correction... 20 gone bust as listed above, from post #1,898 of December 2024. Earlier today I added two more for Rick Ware's sale, but I now realize RWR was not the original owner of the #15 and #51 charters, so they shouldn't have been added to this count. Incidentally, of the 20 original charters that busted out, 11 of them subsequently went bust again (including the two RWR charters).

I stand by my conclusion that the economics of team ownership imposed by Nascar are unattractive as an investment opportunity. And this does not bode well for the next generation of team owners. Some day we won't have the business savvy and racing passion of Rick Hendrick and Roger Penske and Joe Gibbs and Richard Childress. Very big shoes to fill... who's going to fill them?

And meanwhile, as SOI observed, Nascar and SMI continue to rake in huge profits. This is why I support the teams in this dispute. They deserve a better split of the profits.
 
rd45usa said:
A North Carolina federal judge has ruled that NASCAR cannot block a damages expert from testifying at the upcoming antitrust trial, allowing the expert to present testimony on potentially hundreds of millions of dollars in losses claimed by 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports. This decision, issued on November 12, 2025, is a significant development as the trial, scheduled to begin on December 1, 2025, nears.

  • The judge's ruling ensures that the teams can present expert testimony on damages, a critical component of their case against NASCAR.
  • The damages expert's testimony will focus on losses allegedly suffered by the teams due to NASCAR's alleged anticompetitive practices, particularly concerning the charter system.
  • This decision follows a series of pretrial rulings that have favored the teams, including a finding that NASCAR holds monopsony power in the market for premier stock car racing.
  • The trial is now focused on whether NASCAR used its market power to suppress compensation opportunities for teams and drivers, including through exclusive dealing terms.
  • The judge has also urged both sides to consider settlement before the trial, noting that a trial outcome could be detrimental to all parties involved.
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Source, please. Thanks.
 
LewTheShoe said:
"Gone bust" = The chartered car is no longer racing under the original team owner. Of course SHR and Ganassi are included as those owners left primarily because they couldn't earn a profit.

#1, 42 Ganassi. Out of Nascar 2022.
#4, 10, 14 Stewart-Haas. Downsized in 2025.
#7 Baldwin. Out of Nascar 2017. Sold again 2021 & 2022.
#9 Petty. Downsized... leased 2017, sold 2019.
#13 Germain. Out of Nascar 2021.
#15, 55 Waltrip. Out of Nascar 2016.
#16 Roush Fenway. Downsized 2017.
#23 BK Racing Out of Nascar 2019. Sold again 2020 & 2022.
#27 RCR. Downsized 2018. Sold again 2022.
#32 GoFas Racing. Out of Nascar 2017.
#33 Circle Sport. Multiple sales 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020, 2024.
#47 JTG-D, Sold in late 2024, Geshecter out of Nascar.
#51 HScott. Out of Nascar 2017, sold again 2021.
#62 Premium. Leased 2016, sold 2018 & 2021.
#78 Furniture Row. Out of Nascar 2019, sold again 2021.
#83 BK Racing. Downsized 2017, sold again 2018.

Correction... 20 gone bust as listed above, from post #1,898 of December 2024. Earlier today I added two more for Rick Ware's sale, but I now realize RWR was not the original owner of the #15 and #51 charters, so they shouldn't have been added to this count. Incidentally, of the 20 original charters that busted out, 11 of them subsequently went bust again (including the two RWR charters).

I stand by my conclusion that the economics of team ownership imposed by Nascar are unattractive as an investment opportunity. And this does not bode well for the next generation of team owners. Some day we won't have the business savvy and racing passion of Rick Hendrick and Roger Penske and Joe Gibbs and Richard Childress. Very big shoes to fill... who's going to fill them?

And meanwhile, as SOI observed, Nascar and SMI continue to rake in huge profits. This is why I support the teams in this dispute. They deserve a better split of the profits.
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I don't think as many went bust as they saw how much teams were willing to pay for charters and were willing to cash out.

You also have to look at how many teams were pushed out because of the charters. Besides the 500 or a one off race when is the last time we sent cars home? With the implementation of the charter system an open team can win the race and still lose money.

The reason people like 23XI and Front Row want more money is because they overspent. They need charter money to increase otherwise the market will get to a point that the ROI of buying a charter doesn't make sense. Paying what these guys supposedly did probably puts you in that area.

Its not nascars responsibility to give you more money to recover what you spent on a charter that they gave away for free and have zero control on what people pay for.
 
Childress and Gibbs at the least seem to have heirs apparent, and in the case of Hendrick, it seems like Jeff Gordon is being set up to take over the team eventually...

No idea about Penske, though.
 
Hikaru Kitsune said:
Childress and Gibbs at the least seem to have heirs apparent, and in the case of Hendrick, it seems like Jeff Gordon is being set up to take over the team eventually...

No idea about Penske, though.
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Roger has always said there's a plan. Most assumed that Tim Cindric was going to take over the race operations, but he got the axe earlier this year so at this point there doesn't seem to be an heir apparent.
 
For everyone who bemoans NASCAR placing restrictions on how the race cars can be used (limited to sanctioned Cup events); have you really considered why that is done? It goes beyond the intellectual property rights of NASCAR as a racing series. The limitations actually help maintain the value of everything, for both NASCAR and the teams.

When negotiating the TV rights contract, which generates the most revenue for everyone involved, the buyer wants to know EXACTLY what they are getting for their money. The number of races, the structure of competition, dates, exposure, teams and driver promotional availability, etc. All of that is calculated into the pitch, the formula for how winning network can sell enough advertising to make a profit.

Now imagine how much that product would be diluted if various NASCAR teams and drivers could go out and run races outside the NASCAR schedule, using sanctioned equipment, possibly negotiating their own deal with another network to televise their “limited” series of events? Say they call it “Racing Stars Wednesday”, run it at night at various tracks, broadcast live. Features 20 of the top racing stars of Cup, maybe some Xfinity and truck stars. Sounds like a fun show!

NOT FUN to the networks who bought rights to Cup. This is overexposure of the same cars, same drivers. It dilutes the supply of the product, and takes away the exclusivity that network paid for. If they knew this was happening, or even possible, the VALUE of the contract would be far less, as would be the bids. Less money for NASCAR, for the teams and drivers, everyone. So please keep that in mind when you’re ready to throw out everything accomplished for the sake of enriching the plantiff’s.
 
Conover said:
For everyone who bemoans NASCAR placing restrictions on how the race cars can be used (limited to sanctioned Cup events); have you really considered why that is done? It goes beyond the intellectual property rights of NASCAR as a racing series. The limitations actually help maintain the value of everything, for both NASCAR and the teams.

When negotiating the TV rights contract, which generates the most revenue for everyone involved, the buyer wants to know EXACTLY what they are getting for their money. The number of races, the structure of competition, dates, exposure, teams and driver promotional availability, etc. All of that is calculated into the pitch, the formula for how winning network can sell enough advertising to make a profit.

Now imagine how much that product would be diluted if various NASCAR teams and drivers could go out and run races outside the NASCAR schedule, using sanctioned equipment, possibly negotiating their own deal with another network to televise their “limited” series of events? Say they call it “Racing Stars Wednesday”, run it at night at various tracks, broadcast live. Features 20 of the top racing stars of Cup, maybe some Xfinity and truck stars. Sounds like a fun show!

NOT FUN to the networks who bought rights to Cup. This is overexposure of the same cars, same drivers. It dilutes the supply of the product, and takes away the exclusivity that network paid for. If they knew this was happening, or even possible, the VALUE of the contract would be far less, as would be the bids. Less money for NASCAR, for the teams and drivers, everyone. So please keep that in mind when you’re ready to throw out everything accomplished for the sake of enriching the plantiff’s.
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Two points leap to mind (not that it takes much of a leap):
  • Is there a televised 3-on-3 basketball league featuring NBA stars during that league's off-season? I don't follow basketball at all but it would seem the league doesn't find that a threat. Or is it an NBA product? As I said, I don't follow that sport.
  • I would think the SRX experiment and ARCA's financial failure would deter anyone from trying what you suggest. In particular, I don't think they'd get enough TV money to break even.
 
rd45usa said:
nascarlawsuittracker.site

NASCAR Lawsuit Tracker

Independent tracker for NASCAR × 23XI/Front Row Motorsports lawsuit updates.
nascarlawsuittracker.site nascarlawsuittracker.site
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Okay, that's an aggregator, but at least it had a link back to the original source.

www.law360.com

NASCAR Can't Oust Teams' Damages Expert In Antitrust Trial - Law360

NASCAR can't block a damages expert from testifying at trial about potentially hundreds of millions of dollars in losses supposedly suffered by two teams suing the stock car racing company for alleged antitrust violations, a North Carolina federal judge ruled Wednesday.
www.law360.com www.law360.com

Thanks.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I stand by my conclusion that the economics of team ownership imposed by Nascar are unattractive as an investment opportunity.
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And yet the prices of charters keep going up.

No one buys a charter to make money. They buy it to get into the game, knowing there's not much chance they'll make money from the racing itself. The charter is something they can sell to recoup their racing losses. Anyone buying it as an investment probably has a closet full of Beanie Babies and politically based crypto.

But we do agree the teams are getting the short end.
 
Conover said:
Now imagine how much that product would be diluted if various NASCAR teams and drivers could go out and run races outside the NASCAR schedule, using sanctioned equipment, possibly negotiating their own deal with another network to televise their “limited” series of events? Say they call it “Racing Stars Wednesday”, run it at night at various tracks, broadcast live. Features 20 of the top racing stars of Cup, maybe some Xfinity and truck stars. Sounds like a fun show!

NOT FUN to the networks who bought rights to Cup. This is overexposure of the same cars, same drivers. It dilutes the supply of the product, and takes away the exclusivity that network paid for. If they knew this was happening, or even possible, the VALUE of the contract would be far less, as would be the bids. Less money for NASCAR, for the teams and drivers, everyone. So please keep that in mind when you’re ready to throw out everything accomplished for the sake of enriching the plantiff’s.
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Oh no! What if the networks who have foisted upon the sport a playoff system that it's fanbase hates felt like they were being diluted in the product they were being sold? That's such a serious concern to me, the guy who actively watches current Cup racers more outside Cup than in it. I really need to start thinking about the poor corporations like Versant and how they feel.
 
StandOnIt said:
I wonder why charters are selling for 40 million plus if it is such a bad deal to be a team in Nascar myself.
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Indeed, I wonder about that too. Traditionally, high valuations of assets that lose money or have low P/E ratios are usually driven by the expectation of future earnings growth... sorta like "betting on the come." Perhaps charter buyers expect Nascar to spread the wealth more equitably in the future as TV money continues to gain steam...?

wi_racefan said:
Or if having 2 charters was such a bad deal why you'd buy a 3rd?
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This one is a bit easier to understand, as running 3 or 4 cars improves the cost structure compared to running just 1 or 2 cars. Being competitive on the track entails a lot of fixed costs.

Also, additional entries create more ways to win. If there's one thing most successful team owners have in common, it is a passion for winning. Without that, it's really just a show... not a sport. I'm a fan of the *sport* of stock car racing. If it's really just a financial profit & loss endeavor, count me out. There are plenty of other types of racing where sporting passion is the main thing.
 
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