Time for NASCAR to revisit top 30 rule

Things are so fixed in terms of the races being competitive that next year NASCAR is going to add a midseason tournament to the mix.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
My memory might be fading, but I vividly remember watching Kevin Harvick win the inaugural playoff championship on ESPN.
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ESPN didn’t bother to bid on the next set of rights back then and there were even reports they were looking at offloading NASCAR to NBC a year early because of the production costs in a lame duck year.

If NBC really didn’t care for it wouldn’t be around anymore.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Haven’t the races on NBC been ratings blockbusters?

Weren’t NBC/USA ratings up across the board last year?

Ratings have been very strong on USA too in spite of competition from the WNBA.
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One could argue and rightfully so that the competition, not the gimmicks is the driver of higher ratings along with a much better economy.
The "playoffs" in one form or another have been around for many years and whatever version they have had hasn't improved the ratings.
The racing has improved the ratings. It is not a never ending single file race anymore.

Now more often than not it is a contest competing for the closest finishes in Nascar history. Fans watch every week to see if that happens, not who is calling the race in the booth, who is on the cut off line, or who has the most bonus points.
 
FLRacingFan said:
ESPN didn’t bother to bid on the next set of rights back then and there were even reports they were looking at offloading NASCAR to NBC a year early because of the production costs in a lame duck year.

If NBC really didn’t care for it wouldn’t be around anymore.
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Not entirely accurate.

IIRC, ESPN wanted the Cup Series playoffs and nothing else, which was a non-starter when NBC was knocking on the door.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Not entirely accurate.

IIRC, ESPN wanted the Cup Series playoffs and nothing else, which was a non-starter when NBC was knocking on the door.
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ESPN and Turner both had an exclusive window with NASCAR and both declined to bid. NASCAR was even expecting ESPN to put in for a decent pay bump. It worked out for everyone in the end though.

NBC steps up, lands NASCAR

www.sportsbusinessjournal.com www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

Regardless, if NBC didn’t care for the format it wouldn’t be around anymore. The fact that it’s only evolved under them, and will now be a bigger portion of their package, indicates to me they’re proponents of the way it’s designed.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Regardless, if NBC didn’t care for the format it wouldn’t be around anymore. The fact that it’s only evolved under them, and will now be a bigger portion of their package, indicates to me they’re proponents of the way it’s designed.
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How could anybody in their right mind not think that. More game show nonsense. I believe fans of Nascar racing don't give a hoot about all of that.
 
FLRacingFan said:
ESPN and Turner both had an exclusive window with NASCAR and both declined to bid. NASCAR was even expecting ESPN to put in for a decent pay bump. It worked out for everyone in the end though.

NBC steps up, lands NASCAR

www.sportsbusinessjournal.com www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

Regardless, if NBC didn’t care for the format it wouldn’t be around anymore. The fact that it’s only evolved under them, and will now be a bigger portion of their package, indicates to me they’re proponents of the way it’s designed.
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Nobody's saying NBC doesn't care for the format, lol.

@StandOnIt, who blames "The Gerbs" for everything, pretty much blamed NBC for its inception. And the guy's been supportive of every NASCAR decision up until Kyle Busch, who he hated until Kyle went to a Chevy, was faced with a must win situation.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Nobody's saying NBC doesn't care for the format, lol.

@StandOnIt, who blames "The Gerbs" for everything, pretty much blamed NBC for its inception. And the guy's been supportive of every NASCAR decision up until Kyle Busch, who he hated until Kyle went to a Chevy, was faced with a must win situation.
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So NBC signs a big new TV contract for the back half of the season and it’s announced six months later that there’s a new playoff format. Sure, there was one lame duck year in between (where it was at least plausible for some time that NBC could’ve taken over early). But none of that seems like coincidence. Broadcasters want to have an influence in decision-making for the money they put up these days, and NBC has an interest in making their races matter as much as possible. I wonder if the bracketed summer tournament appearing in TNT’s portion of next year’s schedule had any input from WBD executives?
 
FLRacingFan said:
So NBC signs a big new TV contract for the back half of the season and it’s announced six months later that there’s a new playoff format. Sure, there was one lame duck year in between (where it was at least plausible for some time that NBC could’ve taken over early). But none of that seems like coincidence. Broadcasters want to have an influence in decision-making for the money they put up these days, and NBC has an interest in making their races matter as much as possible. I wonder if the bracketed summer tournament appearing in TNT’s portion of next year’s schedule had any input from WBD executives?
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I'm betting the playoff stuff was in the works ever since Tony Stewart won it in 2011.

NASCAR was going on for years about "Game 7 Moments" and needing something like that every year.

If it was NBC's creation, this thing wouldn't have debuted until 2015.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Yeah, I thought that too, until a few months ago. It turns out the 'top 30' requirement was dropped a few years back.

So I know where you're coming from, man; I've been there myself. But the first step in resolving a problem is acknowledging there IS a problem. Not doing so isn't just hurting you; it hurts those around you on the forum. Please, Google for a local T30A * chapter, and I'm here for you if you need a mentor. There's a way out, if you'll just ask for help.

* Top 30 Anonymous, a 12-step program for those who want support finding their way back to the current rulebook.
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Sorry, I re-checked NASCAR's points and Chase eligibility standings and find that my previous post is wrong. Found the source I used was wrong (and has since changed). I withdraw all of my previous comment and admit to being a fool.

This is why I have largely remained "gone", and I promise to go back to being "gone".
 
gone said:
Sorry, I re-checked NASCAR's points and Chase eligibility standings and find that my previous post is wrong. Found the source I used was wrong (and has since changed). I withdraw all of my previous comment and admit to being a fool.

This is why I have largely remained "gone", and I promise to go back to being "gone".
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No, don't go...If it wasn't for your post I wouldn't have known about the T30A meetings. I had hit rock bottom and now I am searching for a new life purpose.
I once was lost, but now I am found.
 
The Nature Boy said:
You doubling down on this being difficult to understand doesn’t reflect well on you.
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No it's simple. I don't care about earlier points systems. The thread is about current points systems. A system that you have posted that is easy to understand. I don't agree with that. Is that plain enough for you?
 
StandOnIt said:
No it's simple. I don't care about earlier points systems. The thread is about current points systems. A system that you have posted that is easy to understand. I don't agree with that. Is that plain enough for you?
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You’re throwing around the word “gimmick.” Was the NASCAR Grand National Championship a gimmick?
 
The Nature Boy said:
Do you only consider championships from 1975-2003 to be legitimate? Were pre-1975 also “game show points?”

You’re questioning the legitimacy of a large portion of the championships here.
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Maybe you can give us a history of them. I personally don't care.
 
I think if Danielle Trotta were to start doing all the victory lane interviews in a bikini that not many of us would not give a damn about how they did the points or whatever that playoff thing was all about.

Everything would be alriiiiiiiiight.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Do you only consider championships from 1975-2003 to be legitimate? Were pre-1975 also “game show points?”

You’re questioning the legitimacy of a large portion of the championships here.
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All the boys know, Denny's always right.

😎
 
The Nature Boy said:
Do you only consider championships from 1975-2003 to be legitimate? Were pre-1975 also “game show points?”

You’re questioning the legitimacy of a large portion of the championships here.
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They are legitimate based solely on the fact that everyone knew what the rules were going in and everybody competed under those same rules, but SOME of the systems used were out and out laughable and absurd. Some of the 60's formats were weighted so heavily towards the longer speedway races, that short tracks became almost worthless. Take 1966 for example. Paul Goldsmith (a national treasure by the way) finished fifth in the season points, despite only running HALF of the races champion David Pearson ran. Bobby Allison finished 10th, having run only 33 of 49 events. In 1963, Fred Lorenzen finished 3rd in points despite running 24 fewer races than champion Joe Weatherly. Danny Letner ran ONE race and finished 55th in points, which sounds about right until you realize 121 drivers ran races and finished BEHIND him in points.
 
Formerjackman said:
They are legitimate based solely on the fact that everyone knew what the rules were going in and everybody competed under those same rules, but SOME of the systems used were out and out laughable and absurd. Some of the 60's formats were weighted so heavily towards the longer speedway races, that short tracks became almost worthless. Take 1966 for example. Paul Goldsmith (a national treasure by the way) finished fifth in the season points, despite only running HALF of the races champion David Pearson ran. Bobby Allison finished 10th, having run only 33 of 49 events. In 1963, Fred Lorenzen finished 3rd in points despite running 24 fewer races than champion Joe Weatherly. Danny Letner ran ONE race and finished 55th in points, which sounds about right until you realize 121 drivers ran races and finished BEHIND him in points.
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Exactly my point. Every championship format crowns a legitimate champion. Everyone knows the rules going in.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Exactly my point. Every championship format crowns a legitimate champion. Everyone knows the rules going in.
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.You seem to be hung up on Legitimate. In my using of illegitimate point system, that means it is not in accordance with accepted rules or standards. This current point system is made up out of thin air while other series have point systems they have basically have been using for years.

In your case, you go ahead and call this mess we have legitimate. It isn't that for me. Aliens from outer space made this last one.
 
If your perspective is that racing should crown champions based on full season performance, then any other system is not going to be acceptable.

I don't want to debate this endlessly, but here's how I'd summarize my position. This year in 9 of the 26 races (approx 34% of the events) the car who accumulated the largest number of points was not the winner. In 7 of those 9 instances (approx 27% of the events), the driver who scored the most number of points was already "locked in" by having won a race. Scoring a race like a golf event while giving the win to whomever has the equivalent of low score on Sunday does not correlate to a system, IMO, that encourages winning above all else and the evidence suggests exactly that. But I accept that my opinion may be a minority of current NASCAR fans and current NASCAR fans are used to this and expect this. So it is what it is. Those fans have what they want, and if they want me to have hit the bricks as a result of these changes, then they achieved their goals.
 
virtualbalboa said:
If your perspective is that racing should crown champions based on full season performance, then any other system is not going to be acceptable.

I don't want to debate this endlessly, but here's how I'd summarize my position. This year in 9 of the 26 races (approx 34% of the events) the car who accumulated the largest number of points was not the winner. In 7 of those 9 instances (approx 27% of the events), the driver who scored the most number of points was already "locked in" by having won a race. Scoring a race like a golf event while giving the win to whomever has the equivalent of low score on Sunday does not correlate to a system, IMO, that encourages winning above all else and the evidence suggests exactly that. But I accept that my opinion may be a minority of current NASCAR fans and current NASCAR fans are used to this and expect this. So it is what it is. Those fans have what they want, and if they want me to have hit the bricks as a result of these changes, then they achieved their goals.
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Personally I am fine with the stage points, they should be added into the points total immediately after the race. Neither network hardly mentions or tallys up the stage points during the race which is simple to do and easy to add to their vocabulary. As you noticed, it sometimes happens that the winner of the race doesn't earn as much as a car that finished high in the stages.
So simple for them to say for example: The leader in the series, the 7 car going into the last stage has15 points and the #2 seed the 14 has 12 points so far. The winner gets an additional 30 points for this race.
 
Just because they write down some nonsensical points system and call it good doesn't mean it is legitimate. It means it is accepted by the people in power who made it.
 
StandOnIt said:
Just because they write down some nonsensical points system and call it good doesn't mean it is legitimate. It means it is accepted by the people in power who made it.
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The system is legitimized by the competitors by their presence at every event.

Teams assume that the millions of dollars worth of playoffs checks written by the sanctioning body are going to clear the bank. 8 or so Million to win The Cup buys “legitimacy” any way you slice it.

What you are discussing here are the opinions of yourself and others. When you figure out a way to wrest control of NASCAR’s decision making process away from the France family and the TV suits, the “purity” of automobile racing can finally be re-established.
 
If you think Chris Boescher thinks he was booted legitimately from 11th place so be it. Fudging up the points...fine. Personally I think many drivers feel like they are getting jerked around, many have commented on how crazy driving is. Boescher chose his words carefully, of course he was ignored mostly be the press, but the undercurrents are there.
 
Formerjackman said:
They are legitimate based solely on the fact that everyone knew what the rules were going in and everybody competed under those same rules, but SOME of the systems used were out and out laughable and absurd. Some of the 60's formats were weighted so heavily towards the longer speedway races, that short tracks became almost worthless. Take 1966 for example. Paul Goldsmith (a national treasure by the way) finished fifth in the season points, despite only running HALF of the races champion David Pearson ran. Bobby Allison finished 10th, having run only 33 of 49 events. In 1963, Fred Lorenzen finished 3rd in points despite running 24 fewer races than champion Joe Weatherly. Danny Letner ran ONE race and finished 55th in points, which sounds about right until you realize 121 drivers ran races and finished BEHIND him in points.
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The 1974 format is the most god-awful mess of a points system there ever was. It was mostly based on earnings, so winning the Daytona 500 pretty much guaranteed a championship. David Pearson finished 3rd in points despite only starting 19 of 30 races, but had less than half the points that champion Richard Petty had. Fortunately that format was put out of its misery after just one season.
 
StandOnIt said:
Personally I am fine with the stage points, they should be added into the points total immediately after the race. Neither network hardly mentions or tallys up the stage points during the race which is simple to do and easy to add to their vocabulary. As you noticed, it sometimes happens that the winner of the race doesn't earn as much as a car that finished high in the stages.
So simple for them to say for example: The leader in the series, the 7 car going into the last stage has15 points and the #2 seed the 14 has 12 points so far. The winner gets an additional 30 points for this race.
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The problem is that during the process of racing in stages 1 & 2, those sums are constantly changing. So yeah, you'd need to automate it and make it part of the broadcast (more tickers!) to make it followable, which is indicative of one of the core issues that I have with the system. But again, if this is what the majority of the fans want after it being the norm for this long, and that's how NASCAR wants to move forwards, then it is what it is. I have to accept that this is what it is since I have no power to change it. The only choice I'm afforded is whether I watch/attend or not. If I watch, which is increasingly rare to do, I watch the last 10 laps since I know it'll take an hour to run them. I recognize how much this makes me sound like someone who says they only watch the last two minutes of an NFL game. To that, I say: 🤷‍♂️
 
virtualbalboa said:
The problem is that during the process of racing in stages 1 & 2, those sums are constantly changing. So yeah, you'd need to automate it and make it part of the broadcast (more tickers!) to make it followable, which is indicative of one of the core issues that I have with the system. But again, if this is what the majority of the fans want after it being the norm for this long, and that's how NASCAR wants to move forwards, then it is what it is. I have to accept that this is what it is since I have no power to change it. The only choice I'm afforded is whether I watch/attend or not. If I watch, which is increasingly rare to do, I watch the last 10 laps since I know it'll take an hour to run them. I recognize how much this makes me sound like someone who says they only watch the last two minutes of an NFL game. To that, I say: 🤷‍♂️
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It's no problem. They have a break after both stages, announce it before they drop the flag after the commercials. It doesn't need to be on a ticker fluctuating constantly irritating the viewers.
 
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