Enough Is Enough Full Season Championship.

virtualbalboa said:
Wrestling - and I say this as someone who doesn't watch it anymore (I could spend awhile on that but will spare all as it is irrelevant) - is a simulacrum of an athletic endeavor which is really a performance art. The reason why wrestling became fixed in the first place was to at some point guarantee the fans who were watching it the euphoric release of seeing the "face" (good guy) overcome the odds and beat the "heel", which is something that real professional sports, most namely boxing, couldn't guarantee. You build up the moment of the heel receiving his comeuppance at the hands of the face. By comparison to what wrestling is when it is successful, the NASCAR points' system doesn't value long term narrative story telling: it does value chaos and controversy and "moments" that could go viral.

Interestingly as a parallel, "valuing chaos, controversy, and viral moments" is actually a consistent complaint about WWE between 2001 and 2023 when Vince McMahon was finally sent packing for the last time. During that time, the WWE became increasingly insular, consumed almost all of its competitors domestically, and saw ratings and live attendance tank. Since he's been gone, the numbers have gone the opposite direction for the first time since Steve Austin was a household name and The Rock was an employee rather than a major shareholder and board member.
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Professional wrestling is athletic performance art / athletic theater.

There's nothing sport about it whatsoever. It's fiction. It's staged theater. People like it. That's fine. But NASCAR should not have any parallels with something like that.
 
Blaze said:
Different forms of entertainment. Wrestling is like any other tv show, or movie. Racing isn’t. I have a different opinion than you .
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This. But I just think with NASCAR being sport that has its own fans questioning its legitimacy at times, we don't need any parallels drawn, and it certainly isn't something that's going to help non fans want to enjoy it as sport.
 
jaqua19 said:
Professional wrestling is athletic performance art / athletic theater.

There's nothing sport about it whatsoever. It's fiction. It's staged theater. People like it. That's fine. But NASCAR should not have any parallels with something like that.
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Well, right now, the closest thing that it resembles is post-Attitude Era WWE. I can't think of a single professional sport that it resembles. Dunno what to tell you about that!
 
StandOnIt said:
When you are kicking out a driver who was 11th in points and giving their spot to a driver who is in 32nd place and that is after after a win and nothing else, Something is seriously wrong. Some Nascar fans are never going to swallow that part.
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I think the championship is legitimate. It always is. I also prefer some kind of playoff/Chase to full season.

But this format absolutely isn't it. The first round doesn't even feel special because we all know that drivers who shouldn't be there are getting bounced.

The point of a chase, or a playoff run, is for that 11th place driver you are talking about to go on a run, make a push, or at least have a strong points finish.

Now, he may have a run that would have put him 8th in full season points, 3rd in chase points, and he's gonna finish no better than 17th for having a legit top 7 kind of season ultimately.

Win and your in, elimination is stupid. It's just stupid.
 
virtualbalboa said:
Well, right now, the closest thing that it resembles is post-Attitude Era WWE. I can't think of a single professional sport that it resembles. Dunno what to tell you about that!
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Don't know what that means. Was lost Attitude - Era WWE a legit competition?
 
jaqua19 said:
This. But I just think with NASCAR being sport that has its own fans questioning its legitimacy at times, we don't need any parallels drawn, and it certainly isn't something that's going to help non fans want to enjoy it as sport.
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I think it is important to remember though that every sport has a fan base that questions its legitimacy. The problem we have with our sport is that there is a "just want to see good racing" contingent without a built in bias who questions the legitimacy. If you aren't bitching because your guy didn't win, you are, in effect, calling into question the legitimacy of the event IMO. With all due respect to that portion of our fan base, I don't understand how once watching a sporting event without some sort of bias.
 
jaqua19 said:
I think the championship is legitimate. It always is. I also prefer some kind of playoff/Chase to full season.

But this format absolutely isn't it. The first round doesn't even feel special because we all know that drivers who shouldn't be there are getting bounced.

The point of a chase, or a playoff run, is for that 11th place driver you are talking about to go on a run, make a push, or at least have a strong points finish.

Now, he may have a run that would have put him 8th in full season points, 3rd in chase points, and he's gonna finish no better than 17th for having a legit top 7 kind of season ultimately.

Win and your in, elimination is stupid. It's just stupid.
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Yeah, I hear you, but I don't completely agree with regard to the first round. As I noted in the other post about the sport's legitimacy, the perspective of the fan watching should be taken into consideration. Take me....for example.....I am in vapor lock over the fact that I have two drivers at the bottom the Championship standings, and one of MY best shots starting at the back (haven't heard if it is an engine issue which adds to the suspense) who have qualified ****** like usual for these tracks and MY OEM. This day could really go sideways for me. Do I like it? No. Is this why I come to the sport the way I do? Hell yes. With Watkins Glen looming and Denny starting at the back on a track that does not draft like Daytona or Dega......WE need a clutch race from him right now.
 
Blaze said:
But aren’t Game 7 moments more entertaining when they happen naturally? It would be way more special if we went into the final race with a close battle from a full season, over an artificial one.
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As an Edwards fan, it sucks enough that 2011 went the way that it did, but now, we're trying to artificially recreate it lol.

I still prefer the old chase to any format
 
Revman said:
Yeah, I hear you, but I don't completely agree with regard to the first round. As I noted in the other post about the sport's legitimacy, the perspective of the fan watching should be taken into consideration. Take me....for example.....I am in vapor lock over the fact that I have two drivers at the bottom the Championship standings, and one of MY best shots starting at the back (haven't heard if it is an engine issue which adds to the suspense) who have qualified ****** like usual for these tracks and MY OEM. This day could really go sideways for me. Do I like it? No. Is this why I come to the sport the way I do? Hell yes. With Watkins Glen looming and Denny starting at the back on a track that does not draft like Daytona or Dega......WE need a clutch race from him right now.
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Yeah I just don't know. I totally get your perspective. You're just taking it for what it is, and eating up the entertainment and drama that comes with it. I do think it's valid and entertaining.

I also do think a form of playoffs belong in NASCAR. I think a lot of fans would be surprised at how put off the casual fanbase would be by a full season points format. At this point, it's like the Rings of Power show. Most of the general audience tolerates it, and enjoys it for all of its flaws. It's just the die hard Toilken fans, the loud vocal minority, who loath the show deviating from source material.

The playoffs are here to stay and a full season format isn't the holy grail. NASCAR is still the biggest motorsport in the country, no one really cares about IndyCar unless you're a racing fan, and F1's boost from Netflix has already died down, especially with such an awful racing product.

Kids who grew up with social media are getting older and most sports fans don't have the attention span to appreciate a full season format. I'd bet solid money that a full season format MAY boost ratings for the dinosaurs, but it'll then crash harder than ever when the new fans decide that they aren't interested in watching week to week because the championship battle is over.

If it were up to me, I think the perfect system would be as follows:

1. Points are scored the way they are throughout the regular season. Stage wins and all.

2. Stage cautions are eliminated, but stage points are still scored.

3. Drivers still get their 5 playoff points for winning a race, 1 playoff point for winning a stage, and 2 playoff points for leading the most laps!

4. 12 drivers make the playoffs. Not 16. The top 10 in regular season points make it. Then we get two wildcard spots. Win and your in applies to spot 11/12. And if it matters, points do to.

5. Points are reset to start race 27, with the additional playoff points for where they finish the regular season stacking like they do today.

6. 10 races, 12 drivers, ZERO eliminations. It's now just a 10 race season. Except playoff points now stack onto race points as "bonus" points. So stage points and race finish points work the way they do, however instead, what would typically be "playoff points" now become additional bonus points. 1 bonus point for winning a stage, 2 bonus points for leading the most laps, 5 for winning. So, in the regular season, max points are 60 - Winning both stages and the race. With this format, that driver gets their 60 points, but they also get the 5 points for winning, 2 points for the two stage wins, and 2 points for leading rhe most laps. 69 max points.


I think this is the best of all worlds and I don't think we'd get a more legitimate champion. Regular season champion will have a points advantage, but it isn't insurmountable
 
jaqua19 said:
Like competitive, judges, scoring it like boxing?
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No. Like I wrote, it was intentionally chaotic and messy. "Anything can happen in the WWE" became the deus ex machina statement to justify why it was the way it was. Wrestling succeeds when it at least attempts to stick to a narrative foundation, which is how stories (hint about journalism: the word "stories" tells you what it is intended to do!) in real sports are communicated, except that wrestling (because it is fixed/booked/fake/rigged/scripted/whatever you want to call it) can at least try to guarantee the payoff the fans want. That's how it historically makes money. It only stopped being that because it was monopolized by a crazy racist sexpest billionaire who realized he could make enormous sums of money from TV carriage contracts regardless of what he did as long as he did plenty of marketing tie-ins and sold nostalgia to marks...err...fans.
 
Revman said:
With all of this being said, is anybody as excited as I am for the start of all of this? Honest question.....Do the Playoffs ruin the season for some? Do you feel that strongly about this? For me, it's a game changer. Just like the post season in other sports, this feel different starting Sunday. Love this. So jacked.
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I'm excited to see the he races but the playoffs are not exciting for me. Other than the awful “every point matters” on the broadcast they playoffs don’t bother me either as I put them on ignore! I don’t acknowledge them. Works for me 😀
 
AlTerego said:
I'm excited to see the he races but the playoffs are not exciting for me. Other than the awful “every point matters” on the broadcast they playoffs don’t bother me either as I put them on ignore! I don’t acknowledge them. Works for me 😀
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It has come to this for many of us. The gerbil broadcasts are all negative. They focus on the mistakes and spend most of their time doing that. It's unbalanced.
 
Hotrod said:
I was a young kid and can remember the season champion being wrapped up
with 2 or 3 races to go. Thats when I quit watching for the year. I seem to recall
some of the teams using the rest of the season to test for next year.

I like game 7's. Entertainment value is higher.
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It never bothered me when a driver had the season wrapped up before Atlanta. Of course it never bothered me when a race was won under yellow or the leader had 5 laps on the 2nd place car either.
 
jaqua19 said:
I'd bet solid money that a full season format MAY boost ratings for the dinosaurs, but it'll then crash harder than ever when the new fans decide that they aren't interested in watching week to week because the championship battle is over.
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I must be the only one who will watch a race as a standalone event, regardless of whether or not it affects a championship. A good race is a good race whether or not a title is on the line. Those guys still want to win.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I must be the only one who will watch a race as a standalone event, regardless of whether or not it affects a championship. A good race is a good race whether or not a title is on the line. Those guys still want to win.
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Yeah I think that is nonsense. The Nascar fanbase is pretty hard core. They are there to watch a race and watch it until the end. I'm going to do my best to enjoy these last ten races nonsense and all.
I wonder if this latest playoff format is trying to attract the daytime game show people. :cuckoo:
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I must be the only one who will watch a race as a standalone event, regardless of whether or not it affects a championship. A good race is a good race whether or not a title is on the line. Those guys still want to win.
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Some of the finales where the champion was already decided were more memorable than any edition of the Phoenix Bowl, like the Gordon and Gordon battle at NHMS in 2001 and Bobby Labonte stealing his last career win away from Bill Elliott at Homestead in 2003.
 
jaqua19 said:
Professional wrestling is athletic performance art / athletic theater.

There's nothing sport about it whatsoever. It's fiction. It's staged theater. People like it. That's fine. But NASCAR should not have any parallels with something like that.
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Personally I think "Overtime" is staged theater knowing there is a good chance of race ending carnage.
 
The Bristol perfect storm.
What a calamity of errors. The playoff system did it's part to make the situation worse. The gerbils were on full send hype mode. They had the crowd anticipating a Bristol type spring race that was going to be full of playoff cutoff drama. What happened besides the non-existent tire wear, and being on one of the hardest tracks to pass, was the brain trust (not the gerbils) inside of the teams were playing position racing, points racing.
The teams if possible, raced just hard enough to be able to transfer to the next round. The race was almost caution free, why? None of the playoff drivers were going to take any chances if they had a position that would transfer to the next round.
Cars that were 2 or 3 laps down didn't have any incentive to race hard if they had to points to advance.
 
The Nature Boy said:
The ultimate goal in every race is to win. If you aren’t trying to do that, you should pack up and go home.
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On the other hand, if your car is way off and you have no chance, get the best finish you can. I don't mean wreck the field to get another spot on a GWC.
 
Revman said:
With all of this being said, is anybody as excited as I am for the start of all of this? Honest question.....Do the Playoffs ruin the season for some? Do you feel that strongly about this? For me, it's a game changer. Just like the post season in other sports, this feel different starting Sunday. Love this. So jacked.
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I love it. Already had an unexpected advance by Suarez and a historically favorite knocked out in Truex. The drama at Bristol was awesome even with a favorite doing what he’s expected to do and very few cautions.
 
If you weren't Kyle Larson at Bristol, you tried your best if you were a playoff car to advance into the next round, or if you weren't a playoff car try to get the highest position you could obtain. The goal is to hold your position if it is good enough to advance or if you could safely move forward.
This playoff racing is about having "good points days". Seldom is a playoff driver going to stick his neck out if they are in a good position (points) to advance.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Weren’t we told that the playoffs were supposed to get rid of that?
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Playoff teams are focused on advancing. That includes staying out of trouble and placing well in the race.
One example was Elliott 7 seconds behind Larson. Elliott was safely in second so he backed off.
Byron I think was in 17th. He asked his pit if he was in trouble, they said no and gave him a rundown on where everybody else was. Byron finished 17th.
 
When you condense the season into three-race mini-rounds, one poor finish can be disproportionately punishing on your points standing. This is only exacerbated by the linear points scale we’ve had since 2011.

So in the first two rounds in particular, when there is simply more competition who can eliminate you, you’re more strongly encouraged to consolidate good points days. As @Charlie Spencer said earlier in the thread, at least one driver is guaranteed to advance from each round on points.
 
StandOnIt said:
The Bristol perfect storm.
What a calamity of errors. The playoff system did it's part to make the situation worse. The gerbils were on full send hype mode. They had the crowd anticipating a Bristol type spring race that was going to be full of playoff cutoff drama. What happened besides the non-existent tire wear, and being on one of the hardest tracks to pass, was the brain trust (not the gerbils) inside of the teams were playing position racing, points racing.
The teams if possible, raced just hard enough to be able to transfer to the next round. The race was almost caution free, why? None of the playoff drivers were going to take any chances if they had a position that would transfer to the next round.
Cars that were 2 or 3 laps down didn't have any incentive to race hard if they had to points to advance.
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And much of the final stage was spent by TV covering some faux ‘battle’ between Ty Gibbs and Daniel Suarez, separated by four laps on track.
 
FLRacingFan said:
And much of the final stage was spent by TV covering some faux ‘battle’ between Ty Gibbs and Daniel Suarez, separated by four laps on track.
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Burton was actively pulling for Gibbs to pass Suarez. So much for neutral broadcasting. When a non playoff car passed both of them and sealed Gibbs fate, you could hear the disappointment in the booth. The coverage ignored almost every battle by non playoff drivers, skewed the perception of the public by doing so. :idunno:
 
Imagine NASCAR goes back to the old points system, and someone dominates ala Matt Kenseth in 2003. The outrage would be hilarious.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I must be the only one who will watch a race as a standalone event, regardless of whether or not it affects a championship. A good race is a good race whether or not a title is on the line. Those guys still want to win.
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Yeah. But will the 16 years olds?
 
JJ_14 said:
Imagine NASCAR goes back to the old points system, and someone dominates ala Matt Kenseth in 2003. The outrage would be hilarious.
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If that was this season, Larson doesn't miss the 600 and is likely sitting on a big points lead right now. (Unless they don't do stage points)
 
JJ_14 said:
Imagine NASCAR goes back to the old points system, and someone dominates ala Matt Kenseth in 2003. The outrage would be hilarious.
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Kenseth didn't dominate, he ran up in the top 5, 10 a lot. Ryan Newman won a bunch of races, but he also screwed up a lot. I guess? Nascar thought that wasn't right. Now we have the total nonsense win and you win the lottery points system.
If a person can't see from the chart above that there is enough drama for the drama queens without all of the fudged up points, I don't know what to say.
 
Somewhere, "the kids" (adults ages 18-34/18-47 whom have been the growth demo for F1) are going to be blamed regardless of what happens in terms of NASCAR developing a points system that they claim is for them. Everyone in these discussions already has a preference and is here to defend it. Regardless of what would or would not happen if you revamped the points system for the 75th time in the last 20 years, they will still feel this way. That's already a known factor since we know what the ratings and attendance have been like since the institution of the post-season!
 
StandOnIt said:
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Do you think Larson actually stays in Indy if we have full season points? Don’t get me wrong, I won’t a full season points battle back just as much as you do, but this is kinda skewed by the fact Larson missed knowing that in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t hurt him. Full season points and he races the 600, now he could’ve finished bad, and we still have a close one, or he could’ve kicked ass and been like 50+ points ahead of second place. Sadly we won’t ever truly know.
 
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