23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

Charlie Spencer said:
I already hate myself for asking but wither IMSA in all this? Are the Frances damned for running a monopolistic sports car series?
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Equipment is purchased directly from the manufacturers/chassis builders and becomes property of the team. There’s nothing binding competing teams to IMSA; in fact, it’s common for teams to run programs across multiple sports car series at a time. Regardless of which class of car you own, there are multiple other options to which you can take your car(s). Tracks are typically independent of NASCAR, and sanctioning agreements with those independent tracks don’t contain an exclusivity agreement that would prevent, say, Indianapolis from hosting the SRO’s Indy 8 Hour this weekend.
 
I know it's all a matter of lawyers, but I don't understand how you're allowed to compete in a series that you're currently in a lawsuit against.

At this point all I see is this as a way for Dennis, Front Row and 23XI to complain about any rules enforcement against them.

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Tim_Richmond_Fan said:
I believe a part of the anti-trust lawsuit in this case appears to be about NASCAR not allowing the next-gen car to be raced outside of NASCAR sanctioned events. Race cars that the teams own, not the sanctioning body. So NASCAR is in essence telling teams that they cannot use their property in ways that the teams see fit.
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As I understand it, It's a case of physical property vs. intellectual property. While the teams own the parts and pieces, NASCAR owns the designs those parts and the final assembly are based on.
 
wi_racefan said:
I know it's all a matter of lawyers, but I don't understand how you're allowed to compete in a series that you're currently in a lawsuit against.
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23FR's suit is about the contract for 2025 season and beyond. It doesn't involve the current contract. The teams will continue to compete under the current contract just as they have since it was signed in 201(I forget exactly which year).

It isn't uncommon in business for entities to work together under one or more agreements while litigating others.
 
Has anyone been listening to channel 90 to get a general consensus as to how the fans feel about this?

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Charlie Spencer said:
As I understand it, It's a case of physical property vs. intellectual property. While the teams own the parts and pieces, NASCAR owns the designs those parts and the final assembly are based on.
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From the court document, it states that NASCAR retains ownership of the Next Gen car. So, the teams invest millions in parts and chassis' that belong to NASCAR. Is that correct?


"100. Most significantly, to lock the racing teams into NASCAR, each Next Gen car remains property of NASCAR. This means that Plaintiffs and other teams pour money into purchasing parts and pieces from NASCAR’s authorized suppliers while developing expertise in driving and maintaining the Next Gen car, but ultimately are left with a very expensive racing car that can only be used for NASCAR Cup Series races. Since the Next Gen car is property of NASCAR, NASCAR can and does prohibit teams from using the car in any race other than Cup Series races. If a team wanted to participate in another stock car racing event not authorized by NASCAR—even after the Charter Agreement and the covenant not to compete expired—it would have to build an entirely new car from the ground up..."
 
BobbyFord said:
From the court document, it states that NASCAR retains ownership of the Next Gen car.
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Then I misunderstood. Thanks.

So when the car gets totaled at a NASCAR track, can I just leave it in the garage or do I have to return it to the parking lot at the Daytona offices? :p
 
wi_racefan said:
I know it's all a matter of lawyers, but I don't understand how you're allowed to compete in a series that you're currently in a lawsuit against.

At this point all I see is this as a way for Dennis, Front Row and 23XI to complain about any rules enforcement against them.

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I sure wouldn't want to trade places with them. Awkward lol.
 
wi_racefan said:
I know it's all a matter of lawyers, but I don't understand how you're allowed to compete in a series that you're currently in a lawsuit against.

At this point all I see is this as a way for Dennis, Front Row and 23XI to complain about any rules enforcement against them.

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"Allowed"? How would that work? There are contracts in effect that govern the events happening this season. You believe that because one party filed a lawsuit over future agreements, the other party should be able to unilaterally refuse to honor the current agreement? That would be an interesting standard. If NASCAR had reason to sue a team for failing to meet its obligations, is the team allowed to refuse to be officiated by NASCAR while the lawsuit proceeds?

It is quite common for two businesses that are involved in litigation against each other over contractual issues to continue their business relationship while the litigation is pending.
 
wi_racefan said:
I know it's all a matter of lawyers, but I don't understand how you're allowed to compete in a series that you're currently in a lawsuit against.

At this point all I see is this as a way for Dennis, Front Row and 23XI to complain about any rules enforcement against them.

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I'm completely ready for Hamlin to continue to dig a deeper hole as time drags on. I think it would be impossible for his crowd to stop him from doing so. The comments on his posts are pretty funny. Like I hate you as a driver but what you are doing standing up to Nascar...on and on. He won't shut up when he has a crowd.
 
StandOnIt said:
I'm completely ready for Hamlin to continue to dig a deeper hole as time drags on. I think it would be impossible for his crowd to stop him from doing so. The comments on his posts are pretty funny. Like I hate you as a driver but what you are doing standing up to Nascar...on and on. He won't shut up when he has a crowd.
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It's always been my experience that if you give an idiot time and opportunity to talk they don't need any help convincing anyone of their lack of intelligence.

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This is just one of the myriad of reasons why teams say they are broke. They will spend every dime and more that they get period.

 
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Charlie Spencer said:
Then I misunderstood. Thanks.

So when the car gets totaled at a NASCAR track, can I just leave it in the garage or do I have to return it to the parking lot at the Daytona offices? :p
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As I understand it. The car is inspected for damage. It's built in three sections and if any of those sections are damaged the damaged section is taken and replaced. I believe they send it back to whoever has the contract to build their chassis.
 
StandOnIt said:
'm completely ready for Hamlin to continue to dig a deeper hole as time drags on. I think it would be impossible for his crowd to stop him from doing so.
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Yeah, his own legal team might have to get a restraining order. He can only hurt his cause by running his mouth.

Isn't Rule #1 to answer only the questions asked, to the minimum amount necessary, and don't volunteer information?
 
wi_racefan said:
It's always been my experience that if you give an idiot time and opportunity to talk they don't need any help convincing anyone of their lack of intelligence.

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"Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake."

Attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte
 
The fight about the car should be interesting I would think. Nascar put a lot of money into developing the car and the innovations that went into it. I can see why they want to keep it out of other's hands.
This could have far reaching results. For example many manufacturers have rigged it so that dealers only have certain parts and pieces and the only place to get it fixed or buy the part is at the dealership only.
 
Mark said:
The charter system has worked wonders for some teams

StarCom bought a charter from RCR after Menard bolted to the 21.

Then they dumped Cassill in a cost savings move and hired Quinn Hoff

He sucked but made every race because of the Charter

NASCAR called their bluff and when they finished at the bottom in the standings of Charter Teams, Nascar said they would lose their chtarter.

What sounded bad became a huge windfall when 23X needed a charter and paid Starcom bank to get theirs.

23X is probably pissed that the value of their charter has not gone up from what they paid for it.
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It's a financial net negative to be a competitive team in NASCAR and the reason for that is due to NASCAR violating antitrust laws and taking advantage of an illegal monopoly. That's what this is about. That's the claim. And if they don't settle, the courts will make a decision on whether or not it's true.


"We want a bigger slice of the pie. You're doing something illegal. If you wont meet us closer, we're talking you to court"

The motivation is so so so clear. I don't understand why people are attaching nonsensical intention to 23XI
 
gnomesayin said:
Criticizing you for continually insulting others is not a personal attack. My point was that you too obviously are for one side and against the other to have any credibility bashing others for rushing to judgment.

I'll chime in when I want, and you can deal with it or ignore it.

My opinion on the matter is that some form of this - meaning a revenue tug of war between team owners and the Frances - was inevitable and a long time coming. That it would take this form is jarring. I think it's impossible to predict the outcome at this time. These matters of law are inherently subjective, but also governed by complex standards. Much depends on whether there is tacit support among other team owners, which is not yet knowable.

Nobody is angling for a break-up, which is ludicrous in today's financial environment. It's all about whether team owners can gain leverage. My sympathies do lie with the teams to some extent. Historically they have gotten the short end of the stick. However, that doesn't mean that everything team owners want is good for the series as a whole.

I doubt the case ever ends up in open court, but if NASCAR has reason to believe it is vulnerable on antitrust grounds or fears opening its books to the court, then it results in a more favorable settlement for the plaintiffs and redrafted charter agreements.
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Nailed it. Teams don't want to lose money. NASCAR didn't budge. Consulted a lawyer who seems to think they have a case against NASCAR for violating antitrust laws and is just trying to shift the revenue structure.

"You aren't gonna allow us to at least profit? You're threatening us to not sue? Well, if there's a case, we're gonna use that to leverage a more mutually beneficial revenue structure"

We don't know what's going to happen..but what I think is clear is that 23XI is still trying to negotiate revenue structure and is enlisting in legal help to do so.
 
Tim_Richmond_Fan said:
I know I'll probably regret this but, I believe a part of the anti-trust lawsuit in this case appears to be about NASCAR not allowing the next-gen car to be raced outside of NASCAR sanctioned events. Race cars that the teams own, not the sanctioning body. So NASCAR is in essence telling teams that they cannot use their property in ways that the teams see fit.

I have no idea how this lawsuit will play out, but I am fascinated by it non the less. I think NASCAR would be foolish to underestimate Mr. Kessler in this arena. NASCAR is pocket change compared to NCAA sports and Mr. Kessler has changed that particular landscape immensely.
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23XI and the other team, and Kessler seem to think they can prove NASCAR is doing something illegal and want to use that "proof" to leverage a revenue structure that better supports the teams financially.

It's not about racing the gen 7 car outside of NASCAR, or about what they can or can't do. It's about using those items as proof of antitrust laws, increasing revenue, and creating some kind of change
 
Good question.
"I'm still trying to square how any one individual organization among a business enterprise suggests that this was unfair to them, uniquely, and not unfair to the other 32," Lencheski said. "If 32 organizations stand up and say, ‘We all agree,’ then you might have some merit because there might be something unknown to me as a consumer I may not be aware of."
 
I hope Hamlin and MJ crush NASCAR. I used to live for races now it's a joke. Between the completely hollow playoff format and a low HP car that can't pass it just needs burned to the ground and started over. The current regime of idiots even managed to make the Bristol Night Race boring.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Yeah, his own legal team might have to get a restraining order. He can only hurt his cause by running his mouth.

Isn't Rule #1 to answer only the questions asked, to the minimum amount necessary, and don't volunteer information?
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Generally true, but don't underestimate the power of swaying public opinion in this matter. If Denny and Mike can convince enough fans that THEY are right,, and NASCAR is wrong, it COULD turn a NASCAR win in court into a loss. If the fans turn on NASCAR, coupled with all the bad press they would get if that actually happened, NASCAR might be compelled to offer some kind of deal to make this go away.
 
Formerjackman said:
Generally true, but don't underestimate the power of swaying public opinion in this matter. If Denny and Mike can convince enough fans that THEY are right,, and NASCAR is wrong, it COULD turn a NASCAR win in court into a loss. If the fans turn on NASCAR, coupled with all the bad press they would get if that actually happened, NASCAR might be compelled to offer some kind of deal to make this go away.
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Pretty sure that is why their attorney has been rapping like a magpie in the media. They are trying the case in the public media.
 
jaqua19 said:
23XI and the other team, and Kessler seem to think they can prove NASCAR is doing something illegal and want to use that "proof" to leverage a revenue structure that better supports the teams financially.

It's not about racing the gen 7 car outside of NASCAR, or about what they can or can't do. It's about using those items as proof of antitrust laws, increasing revenue, and creating some kind of change
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Yes, it is part of the anti trust. The parts and pieces of the car are protected. Only designated vendors can produce them. You need a part or a piece for a Nascar race car it has to go thru channels as it stands.
 
Somebody had a graphic that was a joke that said NASCAR announced the following cars would be sent to the R&D center after the Talladega race: 11, 23, 45, 34, 38. That's funny. It wouldn't surprise me if any of those cars get some sort of post-race penalty the next race or two.
 
MRM said:
Somebody had a graphic that was a joke that said NASCAR announced the following cars would be sent to the R&D center after the Talladega race: 11, 23, 45, 34, 38. That's funny. It wouldn't surprise me if any of those cars get some sort of post-race penalty the next race or two.
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Most likely they can run them a little closer to the line. If they drop the hammer on any of them they'll get accused of retaliation

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MRM said:
Somebody had a graphic that was a joke that said NASCAR announced the following cars would be sent to the R&D center after the Talladega race: 11, 23, 45, 34, 38. That's funny. It wouldn't surprise me if any of those cars get some sort of post-race penalty the next race or two.
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😁
 
Formerjackman said:
Generally true, but don't underestimate the power of swaying public opinion in this matter. If Denny and Mike can convince enough fans that THEY are right,, and NASCAR is wrong, it COULD turn a NASCAR win in court into a loss. If the fans turn on NASCAR, coupled with all the bad press they would get if that actually happened, NASCAR might be compelled to offer some kind of deal to make this go away.
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The Highest Court in the Land is the Court of Public Opinion.
 
Formerjackman said:
If Denny and Mike can convince enough fans that THEY are right,, and NASCAR is wrong, it COULD turn a NASCAR win in court into a loss.
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That would be enough for me to wish 23FR no end of trouble. I've had four years of someone proven wrong in court using public opinion.

And I won't whine when this post disappears.
 
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