23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

virtualbalboa said:
I don't think you can say it's a guess, actually. The lawsuit says the purchase agreement between 23XI and SHR was made on August 7. The lawsuit says the agreement between FRM and SHR was made in May 2024. Both predate NASCAR demanding the charter agreement be signed.
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Good point. I'm sure some will figure a way around that tho.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Calling ARCA a legitimate series is almost laughable. It’s a rich kid hobbyist league with a few legitimate prospects.

NASCAR put it on life support, they didn’t really save it.
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ARCA was a professional racing series (I know, I'm holding back laughter too) using stock cars which was not NASCAR and while it always had good relations with NASCAR (unlike USAC), it wasn't NASCAR itself. Until it was. Then at that point NASCAR had effectively consolidated the entirety of stock car racing under it's umbrella. I know it hadn't in so much as late model and modified series exist that they don't operate, but in terms of what most people would see as stock car racing, they dominate the market. No one even disagrees with this.

However, and it is a big however - NASCAR going to the ARCA ownership and offering to buy the series because Frank Kimmel (ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY) was no longer going to be paying for the series to operate via tech inspection bribes (ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY) while not inherently illegal per se is NASCAR buying the only entity in the country that remotely resembled them and consolidating it into their overall structure. If I dominate an industry and my decisions contribute to all my competitors going out of business and selling to me, I can't feign shock if the government says I might have been not operating in good faith to permit others to compete in the marketplace.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Calling ARCA a legitimate series is almost laughable. It’s a rich kid hobbyist league with a few legitimate prospects.

NASCAR put it on life support, they didn’t really save it.
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virtualbalboa said:
ARCA was a professional racing series (I know, I'm holding back laughter too) using stock cars which was not NASCAR and while it always had good relations with NASCAR (unlike USAC), it wasn't NASCAR itself. Until it was. Then at that point NASCAR had effectively consolidated the entirety of stock car racing under it's umbrella. I know it hadn't in so much as late model and modified series exist that they don't operate, but in terms of what most people would see as stock car racing, they dominate the market. No one even disagrees with this.

However, and it is a big however - NASCAR going to the ARCA ownership and offering to buy the series because Frank Kimmel (ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY) was no longer going to be paying for the series to operate via tech inspection bribes (ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY) while not inherently illegal per se is NASCAR buying the only entity in the country that remotely resembled them and consolidating it into their overall structure. If I dominate an industry and my decisions contribute to all my competitors going out of business and selling to me, I can't feign shock if the government says I might have been not operating in good faith to permit others to compete in the marketplace.
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What does either of this have to do with what sawyer the lawyer is claiming lol. Any clues here?
 
StandOnIt said:
What does either of this have to do with what sawyer the lawyer is claiming lol. Any clues here?
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I'll spell it out for you then: ARCA being a crappy professional stock car series doesn't mean it wasn't a professional stock car series in the eyes of the law. If they went bankrupt, anyone could have bought the assets (and none/few of the debts because Chapter 11) and run it as a competitor to NASCAR. NASCAR buying it removed that possibility.
 
virtualbalboa said:
I'll spell it out for you then: ARCA being a crappy professional stock car series doesn't mean it wasn't a professional stock car series in the eyes of the law. If they went bankrupt, anyone could have bought the assets (and none/few of the debts because Chapter 11) and run it as a competitor to NASCAR. NASCAR buying it removed that possibility.
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Maybe this will help you or at least get some of your story to make sense. Or you could holler fake news, there is a lot of that going around these days.

 
StandOnIt said:
Maybe this will help you or at least get some of your story to make sense. Or you could holler fake news, there is a lot of that going around these days.

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I am very aware as to what NASCAR's press release said. Press releases are not something that is going to be requested as evidence in discovery. Literally no one is going to care about this. What they (as in the courts) would care about would be "Why did ARCA need saving in the first place?" That ain't here, is it?

Just an FYI: If it turned out that NASCAR knew that ARCA was on the market and let them know they'd pay twice what anyone else would, guess what that is in the view of the courts?
 
virtualbalboa said:
ARCA was a professional racing series (I know, I'm holding back laughter too) using stock cars which was not NASCAR and while it always had good relations with NASCAR (unlike USAC), it wasn't NASCAR itself. Until it was. Then at that point NASCAR had effectively consolidated the entirety of stock car racing under it's umbrella. I know it hadn't in so much as late model and modified series exist that they don't operate, but in terms of what most people would see as stock car racing, they dominate the market. No one even disagrees with this.

However, and it is a big however - NASCAR going to the ARCA ownership and offering to buy the series because Frank Kimmel (ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY) was no longer going to be paying for the series to operate via tech inspection bribes (ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY) while not inherently illegal per se is NASCAR buying the only entity in the country that remotely resembled them and consolidating it into their overall structure. If I dominate an industry and my decisions contribute to all my competitors going out of business and selling to me, I can't feign shock if the government says I might have been not operating in good faith to permit others to compete in the marketplace.
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I mean I agree with you. NASCAR buying ARCA seems like an unforced error in retrospect. They should have just found a puppet buyer and helped them buy it.

The lawsuit has a lot of merit, I just worry about a judge deciding how to remedy the issue.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I mean I agree with you. NASCAR buying ARCA seems like an unforced error in retrospect. They should have just found a puppet buyer and helped them buy it.

The lawsuit has a lot of merit, I just worry about a judge deciding how to remedy the issue.
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I'm not going to say why NASCAR chose to do things in any specific way, but I would guess that having a puppet buyer would have made it tougher to merge with the K&N Series. At the time I doubt they would care enough about any implications of buying up ARCA because "Who's gonna sue us?"
 
NASCAR needs better surrogates than Larry MACKreynolds and Dave Moody.

Not that it would help.
 
StandOnIt said:
There is a long write up about when Jim France and his friend who owned the series sold it to Jim France somewhere. I don't know what the hell you are trying to get at. What it was before is irrelevant to the sale. It's akin to when Tony Stewart bought Eldora. The owners sold it to Stewart because they knew he wouldn't turn it into a mall, or some B.S. Same here with the sale of ARCA.
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ARCA has served as a "sidekick" to NASCAR practically since day one at the blessing of the France family. Bill Sr. and Arca founder John Marcum were good friends, and Bill Jr. continued that relationship, giving ARCA the opportunity to run at ISC tracks and be an opening act for NASCAR weekends. When Marcum died, the series was taken over by his daughter and son in law Ron and Suzie Dager. The series struggled mightily in the late 70's-early 80's even going so far as to run companion events with the quickly dying USAC stock car division. By the mid-80's ARCA had a resurgence (wouldn't be surprised if France family money was injected) that lasted until the mid 200's when things started to get pretty lean again. With the Dagers getting up in age and the series struggling, it was probably down to a matter of "Buy us out, or we're closing it down. Probably because the France family still sees SOME value in it, and partially out of decades long loyalty to the Marcum/Dager family, NASCAR absorbed it. I am 98% sure it doesn't exist today if they don't buy.
 
aunty dive said:
NASCAR needs better surrogates than Larry MACKreynolds and Dave Moody.

Not that it would help.
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He’s America’s Crew Chief but NASCAR’s Shill…honestly I read an article today from Ryan McGee of ESPN or tried to at least I had to quit when he somehow tried tying the relief efforts that 23XI were giving to Helene victims to their newly minted lawsuit. This is all going to get very ugly, the nascar media knows where their bread is buttered and 23XI/FRM will receive likely zero support from those that cover the sport on a weekly basis. Not that it matters but it’s crazy to me as an outsider how many layers this lawsuit encompasses. I was only about 10-11 years old when the open wheel split happened so I didn’t really understand it. I sincerely hope history doesn’t repeat itself in this instance. Also for those intent on giving us a “where are they now” of nascar washouts, do Reed Sorenson next.
 
Formerjackman said:
ARCA has served as a "sidekick" to NASCAR practically since day one at the blessing of the France family. Bill Sr. and Arca founder John Marcum were good friends, and Bill Jr. continued that relationship, giving ARCA the opportunity to run at ISC tracks and be an opening act for NASCAR weekends. When Marcum died, the series was taken over by his daughter and son in law Ron and Suzie Dager. The series struggled mightily in the late 70's-early 80's even going so far as to run companion events with the quickly dying USAC stock car division. By the mid-80's ARCA had a resurgence (wouldn't be surprised if France family money was injected) that lasted until the mid 200's when things started to get pretty lean again. With the Dagers getting up in age and the series struggling, it was probably down to a matter of "Buy us out, or we're closing it down. Probably because the France family still sees SOME value in it, and partially out of decades long loyalty to the Marcum/Dager family, NASCAR absorbed it. I am 98% sure it doesn't exist today if they don't buy.
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I'm not saying that any of the above is wrong or that it couldn't be true. Do I think the Dagers called up the France family and said "You want this thing? You get checks from the occasional sport truck race from it too"? Yeah. Probably. Does that really matter in the context of this discussion? Not in the way a lot of people think. If you are right about the 90s/00s, "NASCAR gave us money to inflate our value and car counts while ASA and other series died, but also wanted us to be complementary and not competitive" is not the great look some think.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
Also for those intent on giving us a “where are they now” of nascar washouts, do Reed Sorenson next.
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I looked him up didn't include him since I didn't think it was that interesting. He works for Kaulig now. Dad was a general contractor who raced late models on the weekend. Apparently the family business was lucrative enough that his mom was able to be his press agent starting when he was still in elementary school.
 
virtualbalboa said:
I am very aware as to what NASCAR's press release said. Press releases are not something that is going to be requested as evidence in discovery. Literally no one is going to care about this. What they (as in the courts) would care about would be "Why did ARCA need saving in the first place?" That ain't here, is it?

Just an FYI: If it turned out that NASCAR knew that ARCA was on the market and let them know they'd pay twice what anyone else would, guess what that is in the view of the courts?
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Please share specific evidence that NASCAR told them they’d pay twice what anyone else would. Also do you know if ARCA had any other bidders? It’s not exactly a treasure trove of $$$.
 
I think there's a lot of anxiety and uncertainty around the future of the sport and this lawsuit's implication, and it's causing a lot of us to overthink things.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think the details of the case are fairly straightforward.

So, FRM and 23XI are claiming that even for the top, running a cup team in NASCAR is a net negative financially, even with sponsorship and the reason for that is because NASCAR is running an illegal monopoly and breaking antitrust laws. The other teams signing the charter agreement, per these guys, is a result of being coerced and threatened.

They intend to prove that NASCAR is breaking a law and are hoping to be able to profit from their entry in the sport.

Do they have the right to profit? Honestly, no. But it seems the claim is that they have a right to invest in an industry that isn't breaking any laws. Regardless of a split, which may not be the case, the teams are hoping to be able to profit and feel more secure in the sport that constantly is becoming more and more expensive.
 
Conover said:
Please share specific evidence that NASCAR told them they’d pay twice what anyone else would. Also do you know if ARCA had any other bidders? It’s not exactly a treasure trove of $$$.
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I just threw that out there as an example. It doesn't matter what NASCAR offered to pay them either. This whole "NASCAR and ARCA were buddy buddy and ARCA knew how to work within the confines NASCAR gave it" etc etc isn't a thing I don't understand. I understand it. The issue is that what is being described is cartel behavior.
 
StandOnIt said:
2. What rival series. There isn't one.
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This. It's not like the NFL where multiple other football leagues have tried. It's not like the open wheel split. I guess lawyers could point to the regional late model series but how many of them are interested in competing with NASCAR or running on it's tracks?
 
virtualbalboa said:
ARCA was a professional racing series (I know, I'm holding back laughter too) using stock cars which was not NASCAR and while it always had good relations with NASCAR (unlike USAC), it wasn't NASCAR itself. Until it was. Then at that point NASCAR had effectively consolidated the entirety of stock car racing under it's umbrella. I know it hadn't in so much as late model and modified series exist that they don't operate, but in terms of what most people would see as stock car racing, they dominate the market. No one even disagrees with this.

However, and it is a big however - NASCAR going to the ARCA ownership and offering to buy the series because Frank Kimmel (ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY) was no longer going to be paying for the series to operate via tech inspection bribes (ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY ALLEGEDLY) while not inherently illegal per se is NASCAR buying the only entity in the country that remotely resembled them and consolidating it into their overall structure. If I dominate an industry and my decisions contribute to all my competitors going out of business and selling to me, I can't feign shock if the government says I might have been not operating in good faith to permit others to compete in the marketplace.
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Menards was a large part of this too.

Ron Drager was getting old and tired, and Menards pretty much said that they'd sign on as title sponsor if he sold to NASCAR, but would exit altogether if he didn't.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
This. It's not like the NFL where multiple other football leagues have tried. It's not like the open wheel split. I guess lawyers could point to the regional late model series but how many of them are interested in competing with NASCAR or running on it's tracks?
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The lack of a current competitor and the failure of other related series/sanctioning bodies is not evidence that NASCAR isn't guilty of anticompetitive behavior! That's actually the expected outcome that leads to a lawsuit such as this!
 
virtualbalboa said:
The lack of a current competitor and the failure of other related series/sanctioning bodies is not evidence that NASCAR isn't guilty of anticompetitive behavior! That's actually the expected outcome that leads to a lawsuit such as this!
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How do you prove a negative? If no one has even tried to complete with my World Champion Farting league, am I by default guilty of monopolistic practices?
 
It's funny, from the moment MJ got involved with racing and 23XI, NASCAR did everything they could to showcase it. "Hey look, MJ likes racing! MJ is a team owner! Here's MJ at the track!" They never missed an opportunity to let the fans know Michael Jordan was part of NASCAR.

And now, this. Ironic.
 
The charter system has worked wonders for some teams

StarCom bought a charter from RCR after Menard bolted to the 21.

Then they dumped Cassill in a cost savings move and hired Quinn Hoff

He sucked but made every race because of the Charter

NASCAR called their bluff and when they finished at the bottom in the standings of Charter Teams, Nascar said they would lose their chtarter.

What sounded bad became a huge windfall when 23X needed a charter and paid Starcom bank to get theirs.

23X is probably pissed that the value of their charter has not gone up from what they paid for it.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
How do you prove a negative? If no one has even tried to complete with my World Champion Farting league, am I by default guilty of monopolistic practices?
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What's the cost (or other barriers) to enter the market? Has anyone else ever tried to enter the market, and what has happened to said prior individuals or entities that have tried to enter this market? This is not impossible to do.
 
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