23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

wi_racefan said:
Nascar made this common car with all parts from 3rd party vendor in conjunction with and at the request of the team owners themselves. "Save us from ourselves "

You can't have it both ways.

My main argument is that nascar is not forcing teams to spend $20 mil a year on race cars. They're doing that on their own. IMO if the team owners want to make more money they need to turn to themselves and agree to a spending cap.

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But teams can't be competitive if they don't spend that money. And that environment exists the way it does because of the rules NASCAR has.

You're essentially saying "NASCAR has the authority to say you can either lose money and be competitive, shut up, or get out"

Why are you accepting of that?
 
aunty dive said:
I’m sure it does. Transporting cars, travel expense, hotels and meals for at track personnel. Rental cars, etc., etc.

Race tires at $25 K per week… hospitality, etc…. I could go on. None of it has anything to do with spending $20 million “on race cars”.
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I mean, they're not wrong.

Race teams don't have to be spending that money, nor do they have to agree to it, and sure, they did.

But the problem currently is teams HAVE to spend to be competitive. The investments teams make to be competitive is resulting in a net loss. They think that is due to NASCAR running an illegal monopoly.

I don't know the details. But if you HAVE to lose capital to be competitive, then something is wrong with the financial system. I guess we will find out if it's illegal.

But blaming it on the teams for spending money to be competitive, im sorry, is just an idiotic stance to take. That's crazy
 
BobbyFord said:
You have no idea who I work for or what I know. Stop the nonsense.
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I work for a nonprofit and pretty much everyone who works for my program knows about the financials / funding and costs of our program.... Because leadership made us aware.

Granted most of us don't care, but it's not outrageous
 
IMO, NASCAR should've signed over 50% of the TV money to the teams and then said, "But you're going to give the fans and TV partners what they want. We're going back to three-day shows."
 
jaqua19 said:
But teams can't be competitive if they don't spend that money. And that environment exists the way it does because of the rules NASCAR has.

You're essentially saying "NASCAR has the authority to say you can either lose money and be competitive, shut up, or get out"

Why are you accepting of that?
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The only reason they need to spend that amount is because its an arms race among owners. Nascar doesn't make teams run sim, buy the hawk eye system, buy million dollar crew training facilities....

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AndyMarquisLive said:
IMO, NASCAR should've signed over 50% of the TV money to the teams and then said, "But you're going to give the fans and TV partners what they want. We're going back to three-day shows."
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Do we know that the TV partners want regular Friday activity, that P&Q would outdraw other programming alternatives?

Maybe it's because I no longer participate in fantasy racing, or maybe it's because I've retired and have other things I prefer to do besides sit in front of the tube. Whatever the reason, I haven't watched P&Q since they resumed after COVID and don't miss watching them.
 
wi_racefan said:
Isn't that what 23XI claims in the documents that it costs 18-20 a year to run a competitive team?

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That might cover more than the cost of the car tbh. I’m not sure so I’m not saying that as a fact. I’m just making a guess.
 
Blaze said:
That might cover more than the cost of the car tbh. I’m not sure so I’m not saying that as a fact. I’m just making a guess.
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It's all part of the cost of putting what they claim to be a competitive car on the track.

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wi_racefan said:
It's all part of the cost of putting what they claim to be a competitive car on the track.

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well even if that’s the case, anyone suggesting they don’t spend what teams gotta spend to be competitive is kinda silly. They should spend less and just ride around?
 
Blaze said:
well even if that’s the case, anyone suggesting they don’t spend what teams gotta spend to be competitive is kinda silly. They should spend less and just ride around?
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The on track product wouldn't be worse and the argument could be made it might actually be better if everyone spent less. Like I said it only cost that much to be competitive because it's an arms race.

The more money you spend on these things the more you science them out and the more the on track product suffers.

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wi_racefan said:
The on track product wouldn't be worse and the argument could be made it might actually be better if everyone spent less. Like I said it only cost that much to be competitive because it's an arms race.

The more money you spend on these things the more you science them out and the more the on track product suffers.

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I mean maybe, but honestly neither of us know what all that cost covers. If they could get it down and they all did, cool that’s good. But we have to let it all play out first. Whatever happens, I hope it is good for those involved, and not just one side.
 
wi_racefan said:
Isn't that what 23XI claims in the documents that it costs 18-20 a year to run a competitive team?
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Yes, it is.

I misunderstood what you said. I took it to mean $20 Million was the cost of a car not the cost of operating one for a season. Got it now.
 
wi_racefan said:
The on track product wouldn't be worse and the argument could be made it might actually be better if everyone spent less. Like I said it only cost that much to be competitive because it's an arms race.

The more money you spend on these things the more you science them out and the more the on track product suffers.
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But that's not realistic. It doesn't work that way in any form of motorsports at any level. There's always someone willing to outspend the rest. Do you expect the top teams to agree to some honor system where they self police their costs?

It has always been an arms race, and always will. These teams all want to be the best, and if they have the resources to gain an advantage over the competition, they will use them.

And none of that has anything to do with getting their fair share of the pie, IMO. NASCAR should thank their lucky stars they have owners like Hendrick, Penske, Gibbs, etc. doing whatever it takes to be on top.
 
2 Sweet said:
But that's not realistic. It doesn't work that way in any form of motorsports at any level. There's always someone willing to outspend the rest. Do you expect the top teams to agree to some honor system where they self police their costs?

It has always been an arms race, and always will. These teams all want to be the best, and if they have the resources to gain an advantage over the competition, they will use them.

And none of that has anything to do with getting their fair share of the pie, IMO. NASCAR should thank their lucky stars they have owners like Hendrick, Penske, Gibbs, etc. doing whatever it takes to be on top.
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But the argument they're trying to make is give us more money so we can make a profit and put drivers in the car that don't bring money. It's never going to happen because teams will always spend more than they bring in.

Despite nascars best efforts to save the teams money, they continue to find new ways to spend it.

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wi_racefan said:
But the argument they're trying to make is give us more money so we can make a profit and put drivers in the car that don't bring money. It's never going to happen because teams will always spend more than they bring in.

Despite nascars best efforts to save the teams money, they continue to find new ways to spend it.

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I just don't see this as true..

Nascar's best efforts to save the teams money...

Come on lol what a take
 
jaqua19 said:
I just don't see this as true..

Nascar's best efforts to save the teams money...

Come on lol what a take
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Took car design and production away from them, limit car inventory, shortened race weekends, mandated engines be used multiple weekends, put limits on crew allowed at the track, banned testing, banned individual wind tunnel time, standard pit guns, mandated that and CFD software teams use must be commercially available...... do we need to keep going?

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Charlie Spencer said:
Do we know that the TV partners want regular Friday activity, that P&Q would outdraw other programming alternatives?

Maybe it's because I no longer participate in fantasy racing, or maybe it's because I've retired and have other things I prefer to do besides sit in front of the tube. Whatever the reason, I haven't watched P&Q since they resumed after COVID and don't miss watching them.
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I am absolutely certain Amazon and TNT want Friday activity.

(Remember, aside from Daytona Speed Days, practice and qualifying is on Prime Video and TruTV/Max.)
 
Clutch said:
Why is this?
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Both of the charter agreements were sealed by the courts.
Because:
NASCAR’s reasoning is that these documents ‘contain highly sensitive commercial financial information, such as revenue, rights agreements and sponsorship agreements. Defendants would not share this highly sensitive financial information publicly and it should be sealed to avoid harming Defendant’s business and business relationships;’
 
Conover said:
Now now super lawyer…let’s not throw a tantrum.
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Find it interesting how some of you feel it's OK to heavily criticize/make fun of the "opposing" lawyers but crawl all over NASCAR lawyers sack. No bias here. Nope. I'm on teams side but just gonna wait ot see how it works out.

Still won't surprise me if Nascar figures out a way to keep them from running at all.

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KTMLew01 said:
Find it interesting how some of you feel it's OK to heavily criticize/make fun of the "opposing" lawyers but crawl all over NASCAR lawyers sack. No bias here. Nope. I'm on teams side but just gonna wait ot see how it works out.

Still won't surprise me if Nascar figures out a way to keep them from running at all.

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Nascar already has. It they can't get their charters back it is a slow death.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Find it interesting how some of you feel it's OK to heavily criticize/make fun of the "opposing" lawyers but crawl all over NASCAR lawyers sack. No bias here. Nope. I'm on teams side but just gonna wait ot see how it works out.

Still won't surprise me if Nascar figures out a way to keep them from running at all.

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My point was to the statement being built on emotional drivel verses facts. I know lawyers will use both at times, but it seems awfully early to resort to that in statements.

My perspective is more from the business model itself. We have little knowledge of how this will play out, but this first phase will decide if the plaintiff’s get to go fishing for evidence via discovery, and if Hamcrap gets to keep receiving charter funds next season while they have no charter. If the judge rules for NASCAR in either or both, it makes things tough for super lawyer.
 
:idunno: They have both called each other a S.O.B. in their own way. That's par for the course. Sawyer the lawyer on the outlier's side is trying to pull on the emotional heartstrings going on about the bad bad bully beating up on the innocent billionaire "little guy" fighting against all odds.
Nascar is saying you dumb hayseeds, you didn't like the contract so F' off. We have moved on, your welcome to run charterless.
 
StandOnIt said:
:idunno: They have both called each other a S.O.B. in their own way. That's par for the course. Sawyer the lawyer on the outlier's side is trying to pull on the emotional heartstrings going on about the bad bad bully beating up on the innocent billionaire "little guy" fighting against all odds.
Nascar is saying you dumb hayseeds, you didn't like the contract so F' off. We have moved on, your welcome to run charterless.
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Nailed it!

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Conover said:
My point was to the statement being built on emotional drivel verses facts. I know lawyers will use both at times, but it seems awfully early to resort to that in statements.

My perspective is more from the business model itself. We have little knowledge of how this will play out, but this first phase will decide if the plaintiff’s get to go fishing for evidence via discovery, and if Hamcrap gets to keep receiving charter funds next season while they have no charter. If the judge rules for NASCAR in either or both, it makes things tough for super lawyer.
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Please reread your post. No bias here. Sure seems to me, you've made up your mind. Before any evidence has been presented. Anyone that has any criticism of NASCAR is always wrong. I don't understand that way of thinking.
 
StandOnIt said:
:idunno: They have both called each other a S.O.B. in their own way. That's par for the course. Sawyer the lawyer on the outlier's side is trying to pull on the emotional heartstrings going on about the bad bad bully beating up on the innocent billionaire "little guy" fighting against all odds.
Nascar is saying you dumb hayseeds, you didn't like the contract so F' off. We have moved on, your welcome to run charterless.
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Dont forget the part where both plaintiffs are wanting to buy more charters
 
Still say NASCAR should give the teams what they want and then turn around and say we're doing three day shows again because it's what the fans want.
 
AlTerego said:
I can’t see 3 days ever returning due to cost.
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I don't have any sympathy for the teams in this regard.

Maybe they should all quit trying to turn their drivers into emotionless robots and let them have personalities that attract fans and sponsor interest again.

I remember when cost cutting efforts were being proposed by NASCAR around the time of The Great Recession, and the team owners were literally on ESPN and SPEED Channel saying they're going to spend that money elsewhere anyway so NASCAR shouldn't bother.
 
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