Cup RACE thread: Martinsville

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Man...where to start? It was a great race which to me is yet another example of what happens when you bring a soft tire. The first thing I will say that that probably not everyone agrees on is that Bell got hosed. They said it on the broadcast but what he did and what Chastain did are very different. Chastain decided to do it before he ever got to the corner. Bell was racing hard, got loose and slid up there (which his in-car replay showed) and then tried to gas it up and slid up to the wall. If he lifts there he looses a point so he had no choice.

That being said, now to talk about HMS who in my opinion should NOT have a driver in the final 4 even though I root for HMS. It's amazing that when the checked flag fell at the Roval they had all 4 in the round of 8 and then Bowman is DQ'd. I knew going in Chase was likely going to need a win - especially if those bottom 4 won races which happened every race but for Larson to miss it and Byron to squeak in like that is amazing. I think it's just a fluke really because they brought speed. Chase ran better in this round and had potential race winning speed consistently in multiple races for the first time all year. Larson obviously had speed as well and so did Byron. It's all part of this format I guess in that if you don't win you are guaranteed nothing. I personally still don't like it because it shows not only is winning the only thing that matters but now it's glaring that winning at the right time is all that matters since Larson has 6 wins and it not racing for a title. Winning is so hard in this sport and more often than not seems to come down to circumstance and be out of the driver's hands at times. I feel like Larson, Hamlin and Chase had better seasons than most of the guys in the final 4 but oh well, life goes on.

Overall though, one thing I am happy about is the racing has been really good the past few weeks and that's all I really care about in the end. It seems like the drivers and teams have finally got their arms around this new car and NASCAR is starting to get a clue with tires so I am really looking forward to some good racing next season. I know there is one race to go but really unless your driver is in the final 4 the season is over since that all (except Chastain) seem to pull over for the final 4. On that note - who else thinks the finale should be at Martinsville or at the least back at Homestead? Phoenix just sucks so bad.
 
For maybe the first time in a long time, maybe since 2014 when Jeff Gordon missed out on this championship final I’m not at all excited for this upcoming week’s “ championship race” to the point I might not even watch. My yearly motorsports break might come a week early, which is not ideal. I love racing, I love nascar. I’ve dedicated time, money, and love to this sport but man last night left such a bad taste in my mouth due to everything outlined earlier. There need to be massive changes looked at, even at resistance of pissing off the networks that want this system. When you have the most blatant race manipulation going on in front of you with no shame whatsoever, your system is broken and needs an overhaul.
 
Question that I haven't seen asked and I don't think Bell mentioned it - did he absolutely have to ride the wall? I know he got out of the groove and into the wall a bit, but I didn't see anyone else around him for position. Seemed like he had time to gather it up to me
 
AdoubleU24 said:
Question that I haven't seen asked and I don't think Bell mentioned it - did he absolutely have to ride the wall? I know he got out of the groove and into the wall a bit, but I didn't see anyone else around him for position. Seemed like he had time to gather it up to me
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He shoulda just dumped the 23. Couple people would’ve called him a hack and everybody would've moved on in a couple days with the understand he did what he had to do. Bubba wouldn’t have cared one bit IMO.
 
If I were NASCAR, I would keep the playoffs. The officiating can be hopelessly incompetent but the fans will just blame the playoffs. It’s the perfect shield against actual accountability. Everything is the fault of the “playoffs.”
 
AdoubleU24 said:
Question that I haven't seen asked and I don't think Bell mentioned it - did he absolutely have to ride the wall? I know he got out of the groove and into the wall a bit, but I didn't see anyone else around him for position. Seemed like he had time to gather it up to me
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He already had the position
 
What shouldn't be overlooked is that Ryan Blaney over these last 3 years has grown from a fast, somewhat mistake prone driver with a team that struggles with execution to a legitimate top 3 driver in the series and probably favored to win his 2nd consecutive championship.

Penske really hasn't had lights out season long speed consistently in a bit, so they maximize when they need to. But Blaney has become a legitimate championship caliber driver with championship caliber talent and racecraft.

There aren't a lot of guys in the cup series who are "he's probably going to win if he has the best car" kinds of championship talents. But Blaney absolutely is that.

I'd say Larson dominates more, but I think Blaney may be becoming the most reliable driver in the series when it comes to winning a race if his car has race winning speed.

We didn't talk about it last year and we aren't talking about it now.... Blaney is a really ****** good racecar driver.
 
jaqua19 said:
What shouldn't be overlooked is that Ryan Blaney over these last 3 years has grown from a fast, somewhat mistake prone driver with a team that struggles with execution to a legitimate top 3 driver in the series and probably favored to win his 2nd consecutive championship.

Penske really hasn't had lights out season long speed consistently in a bit, so they maximize when they need to. But Blaney has become a legitimate championship caliber driver with championship caliber talent and racecraft.

There aren't a lot of guys in the cup series who are "he's probably going to win if he has the best car" kinds of championship talents. But Blaney absolutely is that.

I'd say Larson dominates more, but I think Blaney may be becoming the most reliable driver in the series when it comes to winning a race if his car has race winning speed.

We didn't talk about it last year and we aren't talking about it now.... Blaney is a really ****** good racecar driver.
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Blaney has a chance to become the first driver to go back-to-back since Jimmie Johnson.

It's been a really long time since the last time that happened.
 
AdoubleU24 said:
Question that I haven't seen asked and I don't think Bell mentioned it - did he absolutely have to ride the wall? I know he got out of the groove and into the wall a bit, but I didn't see anyone else around him for position. Seemed like he had time to gather it up to me
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I think he said once he got in the marbles that was it and he was kind of along for the ride. I guess he could have tried to slow down to get off the wall but he would have been passed if he did that.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I think he said once he got in the marbles that was it and he was kind of along for the ride. I guess he could have tried to slow down to get off the wall but he would have been passed if he did that.
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Passed by who? The only car on the same lap of him was the 23 and he wasn't going to pass bell.
 
jaqua19 said:
What shouldn't be overlooked is that Ryan Blaney over these last 3 years has grown from a fast, somewhat mistake prone driver with a team that struggles with execution to a legitimate top 3 driver in the series and probably favored to win his 2nd consecutive championship.

Penske really hasn't had lights out season long speed consistently in a bit, so they maximize when they need to. But Blaney has become a legitimate championship caliber driver with championship caliber talent and racecraft.

There aren't a lot of guys in the cup series who are "he's probably going to win if he has the best car" kinds of championship talents. But Blaney absolutely is that.

I'd say Larson dominates more, but I think Blaney may be becoming the most reliable driver in the series when it comes to winning a race if his car has race winning speed.

We didn't talk about it last year and we aren't talking about it now.... Blaney is a really ****** good racecar driver.
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I don't think that's ever really been question that he was really good. It's all about putting it all together at the right time and he is showing he has the ability to do that. I see he and Chase as very similar in their approach and talent in that they may not win as many races as a Larson or a Hamlin but they are very solid and consistent. I still hate this "win the right race and you're in" BS and this season hopefully will lead to change but kudos to Blaney and Team Penske for understanding it better than anyone. What were the odds on Logano and Blaney making the final 4 earlier this season? About zero. On the note of Logano, as much as I really don't like him, if he wins and secures a third title that will put him into some elite company of winning 3 or more titles as not many have done this. Again - credit where due.
 
Daytripper said:
Passed by who? The only car on the same lap of him was the 23 and he wasn't going to pass bell.
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Wasn't Bowman also? I think he would have had to basically stop and then he would not have been able to get down because the train would be going by.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I don't think that's ever really been question that he was really good. It's all about putting it all together at the right time and he is showing he has the ability to do that. I see he and Chase as very similar in their approach and talent in that they may not win as many races as a Larson or a Hamlin but they are very solid and consistent. I still hate this "win the right race and you're in" BS and this season hopefully will lead to change but kudos to Blaney and Team Penske for understanding it better than anyone. What were the odds on Logano and Blaney making the final 4 earlier this season? About zero. On the note of Logano, as much as I really don't like him, if he wins and secures a third title that will put him into some elite company of winning 3 or more titles as not many have done this. Again - credit where due.
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Interestingly enough I don't really Blaney and Chase as that similar.

Elliot reminds me a lot of Matt Kenseth. Generally really consisted and he's going to finish well, right front kind of driver. He's not always going to win a lot of races, but he is sneaky good. Blane

I think Blaney is more of a wheel man than Chase, stylistically. I think he has more raw pace and car control which makes him more aggressive, but I don't think he's as consistent as Elliot in terms of execution. He reminds me of Carl Edwards before he became unhinged.

If you put Elliott and Larson on two ends of of a spectrum I think Blaney would be right smack dab in the middle in terms of the way he races and drives.

As for Logano, he's just an all time great and in my opinion, is the best stock car race car driver in the cup series since Jeff Gordon outside of Jimmie Johnson and Tony Stewart, with all due respect to greats like Busch and Harvick.

If Logano wins his third this year, I won't complain. He's that guy
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
For maybe the first time in a long time, maybe since 2014 when Jeff Gordon missed out on this championship final I’m not at all excited for this upcoming week’s “ championship race” to the point I might not even watch. My yearly motorsports break might come a week early, which is not ideal. I love racing, I love nascar. I’ve dedicated time, money, and love to this sport but man last night left such a bad taste in my mouth due to everything outlined earlier. There need to be massive changes looked at, even at resistance of pissing off the networks that want this system. When you have the most blatant race manipulation going on in front of you with no shame whatsoever, your system is broken and needs an overhaul.
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I feel your pain. I really do. Sucks when your guy comes so close. When Chase took the lead I was sitting there thinking about how amazing it would be after not being able to win enough races/stages all year to pull a win there and race for a title. He needed to get better at this car though and I am really optimistic he has and he will be in the conversation for more wins next season. I was also a huge critic of AG all year but the call to pit him early to get his track position back was his best all year. I'd still like for Chase to get a new CC next year but that was a great call.

As for Larson though - I hope this is humbling to some of those who love to talk all day about how great he is. The bottom line is that he is a GREAT driver who had a very BAD playoff and he and those fans should own it and stop going on about how great he is and understand that raw talent is only one piece of the puzzle in this sport and to even get to this level all drivers have it.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
As for Larson though - I hope this is humbling to some of those who love to talk all day about how great he is. The bottom line is that he is a GREAT driver who had a very BAD playoff and he and those fans should own it and stop going on about how great he is and understand that raw talent is only one piece of the puzzle in this sport and to even get to this level all drivers have it.
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It's just racing man, its not that serious. I dont think anyone needs to do anything or own anything, there's no need for a referendum. He's still the best in the biz, worth the price of a ticket. Very few people on this planet can do what he does, I think its okay for Larson fans to be excited about his talent and being a fan of his. A points system that has warts all over it doesnt diminish what he can do. He had a bad pit stop and then walled it going for a win, might happen some more in the future. For me personally, hes the best talent I've watched since Jeff Gordon an absolute can win any place, any time, anywhere. He can also do that in a stock car or dirt car as well, its been fun seeing his accent since CGR.
 
JJ_14 said:
Blaney has a chance to become the first driver to go back-to-back since Jimmie Johnson.

It's been a really long time since the last time that happened.
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He has a much better chance without guys like Larson or Hamlin to worry about.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I feel your pain. I really do. Sucks when your guy comes so close. When Chase took the lead I was sitting there thinking about how amazing it would be after not being able to win enough races/stages all year to pull a win there and race for a title. He needed to get better at this car though and I am really optimistic he has and he will be in the conversation for more wins next season. I was also a huge critic of AG all year but the call to pit him early to get his track position back was his best all year. I'd still like for Chase to get a new CC next year but that was a great call.

As for Larson though - I hope this is humbling to some of those who love to talk all day about how great he is. The bottom line is that he is a GREAT driver who had a very BAD playoff and he and those fans should own it and stop going on about how great he is and understand that raw talent is only one piece of the puzzle in this sport and to even get to this level all drivers have it.
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Respectfully, Elliott fans and exclusively Elliott fans take issue with Larson and his fans, and I don't think Elliott fans can speak to that until they own WHY that is. The "told ya so" and chronic distain towards his fans is Jimmie Johnson stealing Gordon's thunder all over again. I genuinely think the Elliott fans need to back off of Larson and their fans. It's unnecessarily personal and entirely unprovoked.

Don't take that the wrong way. I genuinely enjoy you as a poster.

Logano is the best in the business. But Larson DID have the best season, and it's not really reasonable to claim it is his fault that he missed out. Is pit crew put him down 2 laps at Vegas, and the cut tire at Homestead deprived him of 4 straight stage points which ultimately was the the difference, so it's not really a "gotcha"
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
It's just racing man, its not that serious. I dont think anyone needs to do anything or own anything, there's no need for a referendum. He's still the best in the biz, worth the price of a ticket. Very few people on this planet can do what he does, I think its okay for Larson fans to be excited about his talent and being a fan of his. A points system that has warts all over it doesnt diminish what he can do. He had a bad pit stop and then walled it going for a win, might happen some more in the future. For me personally, hes the best talent I've watched since Jeff Gordon an absolute can win any place, any time, anywhere. He can also do that in a stock car or dirt car as well, its been fun seeing his accent since CGR.
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I'd still give Jimmie Johnson and Tony Stewart and edge to Larson. But he's up there
 
Was
JJ_14 said:
Surprised no one mentioned SVG's 12th place finish. That was definitely impressive, I think he's ready to be a full-timer.
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Was it Blaney that gave him the bump to pass?.... SVG gonna remember that is how it's done. 😂

Outta the way!
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
Wasn't Bowman also? I think he would have had to basically stop and then he would not have been able to get down because the train would be going by.
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Bowman finished 13th on the lead lap, the only car near bell and on the same lap was bubba.
 
One aspect I haven't seen mentioned is the betting on races now. Manipulation of races when betting was going on. Very bad look for Nascar, if not illegal.
 
jaqua19 said:
Respectfully, Elliott fans and exclusively Elliott fans take issue with Larson and his fans, and I don't think Elliott fans can speak to that until they own WHY that is. The "told ya so" and chronic distain towards his fans is Jimmie Johnson stealing Gordon's thunder all over again. I genuinely think the Elliott fans need to back off of Larson and their fans. It's unnecessarily personal and entirely unprovoked.

Don't take that the wrong way. I genuinely enjoy you as a poster.

Logano is the best in the business. But Larson DID have the best season, and it's not really reasonable to claim it is his fault that he missed out. Is pit crew put him down 2 laps at Vegas, and the cut tire at Homestead deprived him of 4 straight stage points which ultimately was the the difference, so it's not really a "gotcha"
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You know why that is, because Larson showed up and their boy has been a distant number 2 at HMS ever since.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
You know why that is, because Larson showed up and their boy has been a distant number 2 at HMS ever since.
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It just doesn't even have to be an issue. Elliott is a champion. His 2020 season was a lot like Larson's this year. He was probably the 3rd best driver in 2021, he was extremely solid in 2022.

He's gonna win another 25-30 races and probably has one more championship left in him.

Chase is fine
 
jaqua19 said:
It just doesn't even have to be an issue. Elliott is a champion. His 2020 season was a lot like Larson's this year. He was probably the 3rd best driver in 2021, he was extremely solid in 2022.

He's gonna win another 25-30 races and probably has one more championship left in him.

Chase is fine
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I don’t dislike him or actively root against him, it’s fun when he does well as HMS is stronger
 
jaqua19 said:
Interestingly enough I don't really Blaney and Chase as that similar.

Elliot reminds me a lot of Matt Kenseth. Generally really consisted and he's going to finish well, right front kind of driver. He's not always going to win a lot of races, but he is sneaky good. Blane

I think Blaney is more of a wheel man than Chase, stylistically. I think he has more raw pace and car control which makes him more aggressive, but I don't think he's as consistent as Elliot in terms of execution. He reminds me of Carl Edwards before he became unhinged.

If you put Elliott and Larson on two ends of of a spectrum I think Blaney would be right smack dab in the middle in terms of the way he races and drives.

As for Logano, he's just an all time great and in my opinion, is the best stock car race car driver in the cup series since Jeff Gordon outside of Jimmie Johnson and Tony Stewart, with all due respect to greats like Busch and Harvick.

If Logano wins his third this year, I won't complain. He's that guy
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Very, very fair. Elliott came along 20 years too late. In the old Cup points system, he'd have multiples because he is methodical and will get what the car will give him that day. He's a points racer. But, this new playoff system favors guys like Larson, Chastain, etc who are hella talented but borderline wreckless at times. You can screw up and get mulligans in this system. That rewards the daring and, often, dumb. I tend to put Blaney more in Chase's category, but he is way more emotionally fragile and temper prone. I also will say that Chase can get to Blaney radio levels, it just takes a LOT. The schedule just lines up for Blaney. The final round and championship races come at tracks that Penske and Blaney excel at. It is what it is. Even in the old Chase format, I don't think Blaney wins a title. But he's champ under the rules that be and is very, very likely to go back to back. Major props to him. He's excelling at the game at hand.
 
jaqua19 said:
It just doesn't even have to be an issue. Elliott is a champion. His 2020 season was a lot like Larson's this year. He was probably the 3rd best driver in 2021, he was extremely solid in 2022.

He's gonna win another 25-30 races and probably has one more championship left in him.

Chase is fine
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Nah. I don't think he gets another title. He has one, which is validating. At this rate, barring major changes, he may have 10 or so wins left. Just my .02
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
It's just racing man, its not that serious. I dont think anyone needs to do anything or own anything, there's no need for a referendum. He's still the best in the biz, worth the price of a ticket. Very few people on this planet can do what he does, I think its okay for Larson fans to be excited about his talent and being a fan of his. A points system that has warts all over it doesnt diminish what he can do. He had a bad pit stop and then walled it going for a win, might happen some more in the future. For me personally, hes the best talent I've watched since Jeff Gordon an absolute can win any place, any time, anywhere. He can also do that in a stock car or dirt car as well, its been fun seeing his accent since CGR.
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See right there tough "he's the best in the biz." Larson fans say that so much and nothing deters them form that. To be clear, I am not necessarily disagreeing on that but at what point to we start to question this? He sure seems to wreck a lot of his own making for being as good as he is I will say that. Also - he needs to learn where the line is. If he does not spin out racing for the lead at Homestead he's in the final 4. No need to push that hard. If he is as good as everyone says he should know EXACTLY where that line is and stop crossing it so much. Again - don't get me wrong - I think he's the best too but at some point he needs to learn this. He is "prime" diving age where he should know where that line is.
 
Dr_B_UNC said:
Nah. I don't think he gets another title. He has one, which is validating. At this rate, barring major changes, he may have 10 or so wins left. Just my .02
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That seems pessimistic. I am optimistic that Chase finally has this new car figured out and they really have been bringing speed consistently these past few weeks for the first time in a while. We will see how next year starts because momentum is everything in this sport but he seems to be on the right track. Every driver has ups and downs and Chase seems to have no glaring weakness in his craft other then maybe he needs to push the envelope a little more at times but I still think when the car is there he has no issue with this. Seeing him rocket through the field from 28th into the top 10 was pretty fun.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
You know why that is, because Larson showed up and their boy has been a distant number 2 at HMS ever since.
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My only issue with Larson fans is comments like that right there. Larson has been better yes but he's been better than everyone, not just Chase and Chase is not as "distant" as people think. Considering everything that has gone wrong for him in that this new car just does not suit his style like the old did and the injury and having a crew chief that makes puzzling at best calls I think it's pretty amazing how well Chase is doing. Yes the wins and stage wins are lacking but those come when you have that raw speed and the CC is making the right calls too and more often than not AG misses them. Larson has supreme talent AND a top notch crew chief. Larson also makes a lot of head scratching mistakes that a driver of his level simply should not make and I'd like to see one Larson fan throw some criticism at him for it but none seem to.
 
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