Cup RACE thread: Martinsville

StandOnIt said:
This clown car will continue to go around in circles. Nobody is going to be happy with whatever they do. Some are actually starting to see that their clown show playoff system is ripe for cheating and unfairness just like all of the other versions have been. This one is the worst.
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OK Stan - I will bite here as much as I may regret it. I have been bitching about this format for a while saying the old would be better now that the competition is so much closer and the cars so much more reliable which everyone seems to disagree with and that's fine but how would you fix this? What system would work in your view? I like the idea of straight up points all year with 15-25 bonus points for wins and setting the 16 that way with maybe a wild card of some type for most winds outside of the top 15 and then having the rounds they have now with no win and advance BS. You could also keep stage points and give like 5 bonus points for stage wins but no stupid playoff points that carry all the way through. I hate that crap - Even when it benefited my driver in 2022.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
My only issue with Larson fans is comments like that right there. Larson has been better yes but he's been better than everyone, not just Chase and Chase is not as "distant" as people think. Considering everything that has gone wrong for him in that this new car just does not suit his style like the old did and the injury and having a crew chief that makes puzzling at best calls I think it's pretty amazing how well Chase is doing. Yes the wins and stage wins are lacking but those come when you have that raw speed and the CC is making the right calls too and more often than not AG misses them. Larson has supreme talent AND a top notch crew chief. Larson also makes a lot of head scratching mistakes that a driver of his level simply should not make and I'd like to see one Larson fan throw some criticism at him for it but none seem to.
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ive criticized him on here before, check my history during race threads. I also havent been able to watch many races live recently to keep up with the threads so if you're going to check its probably earlier in the season until about September. You're painting broad strokes with the paint brush, I have criticized him before for making a move that didnt work out and ends up in calamity.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
See right there tough "he's the best in the biz." Larson fans say that so much and nothing deters them form that. To be clear, I am not necessarily disagreeing on that but at what point to we start to question this? He sure seems to wreck a lot of his own making for being as good as he is I will say that. Also - he needs to learn where the line is. If he does not spin out racing for the lead at Homestead he's in the final 4. No need to push that hard. If he is as good as everyone says he should know EXACTLY where that line is and stop crossing it so much. Again - don't get me wrong - I think he's the best too but at some point he needs to learn this. He is "prime" diving age where he should know where that line is.
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This is all subjective honestly. Some might think Christopher Bell is worth the price of a ticket... or Tyler Reddick...or Chase Elliott...or William Byron... or Ryan Blaney.. or Joey Logano... or Melon Man..........and thats fine. I just happen to think Larson right now is the best, but any of those drivers are great at what they do. I honestly just think you dont like Larson and kind of wish you'd put your cards on the table, which again is fine. Your constant back handed praise is confusing at best.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
My only issue with Larson fans is comments like that right there. Larson has been better yes but he's been better than everyone, not just Chase and Chase is not as "distant" as people think. Considering everything that has gone wrong for him in that this new car just does not suit his style like the old did and the injury and having a crew chief that makes puzzling at best calls I think it's pretty amazing how well Chase is doing. Yes the wins and stage wins are lacking but those come when you have that raw speed and the CC is making the right calls too and more often than not AG misses them. Larson has supreme talent AND a top notch crew chief. Larson also makes a lot of head scratching mistakes that a driver of his level simply should not make and I'd like to see one Larson fan throw some criticism at him for it but none seem to.
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Here's some criticism right from me:

From July 2 of this year my response to Spotter:
Spotter22 said:
To be honest the " ran out of talent" remarks are what kept this going. Watermelon and Denny both have crashed people trying to win a race. That's racin!
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I feel you there. Folks jump to that phrase way too much when in reality when it was said about that driver originally, had marginal talent at best. To phrase that driver and Kyle Larson in the same put down is humorous but yea I just kind of thought it was a racing deal myself when it happened. Unfortunate and wish he wouldn't do that sometimes but yah he wiped himself out and another good car that had a shot to win.

Also from July 2 of this year:
Formerjackman said:
It seems odd that the world's greatest driver seems to lead his four car team in unforced errors. The primary reason Kyle Larson doesn't win twice as many races is Kyle Larson.
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As a Larson fan, I don’t find this take too inflammatory. Larson does make his fair share of mistakes, sometimes costing himself and other drivers on the track as well. I think Sunday was a good example of that, unfortunately. Still think he’s in one of the top 1% of motorsports drivers across the entire sport though.

I hope that fits your criteria for Kyle Larson Criticism from one of the board's 5 fans . I looked it up so you dont have to, and I'll try to look up more when work commitments ease up.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
ive criticized him on here before, check my history during race threads. I also havent been able to watch many races live recently to keep up with the threads so if you're going to check its probably earlier in the season until about September. You're painting broad strokes with the paint brush, I have criticized him before for making a move that didnt work out and ends up in calamity.
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I'll take your word for it. LOL. You are right though - I am painting broad strokes here and nothing I say is meant to be taken as "for all."
 
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Jorge De Guzman said:
Kind of mild? That’s the second time this year the 3’s spotter has been in the penalty box
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Very mild.

At the end of the day, no penalty for the 24 team is a break from past precedents.

I don’t see anything that deters this from happening at Phoenix.
 
It's been bad enough having to put up with this manufacturer crap at plate races. I usually disagree with the comparison but this reeks of WWE, of a 'manager' grabbing an ankle under the ropes. I'm certainly not gone but there are other things I could do with my time. I hope I'm not given additional reasons to consider them.
 
I don’t see how anyone can say the last 48 hours have been a positive for the sport and on a bigger picture level, the sanctity of the governing body of this sport. Just a bunch of inept leadership.
 
NASCAR is always gonna be the bad guy, bottom line, the OEM's put NASCAR in this position. If I'm NASCAR I would drop the hammer. They need to communicate with the manufactures that they won't put up with this crap ever again. The 24 deserves to be in if for nothing else just keeping their mouths shut.
 
Spotter22 said:
I'm putting the blame on the teams, not NASCAR.
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Well from the looks of it to me, the manufacturers have a lot of the power. They pull this crap during plate races and to see it on display on a short track is a kick to my nuts. I have zero idea how this gets curbed, maybe someone smarter than me knows.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
Well from the looks of it to me, the manufacturers have a lot of the power. They pull this crap during plate races and to see it on display on a short track is a kick to my nuts. I have zero idea how this gets curbed, maybe someone smarter than me knows.
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The manufacturers have too much power. When I was in the Series, we didn't have meetings before the race dictating what we would do and how we would handle various situations
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
Well from the looks of it to me, the manufacturers have a lot of the power. They pull this crap during plate races and to see it on display on a short track is a kick to my nuts. I have zero idea how this gets curbed, maybe someone smarter than me knows.
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I'm not smarter but every one of those cut off races levels, the temptation to cheat IF it can make a difference is there. Martinsville was a good example. The win and you are in nonsense had Blaney pushing Logano and nobody batted an eye. It's the cheaters ball and everybody is invited. Even when it is unintentional like when Bowman booted Hoscevar and brought out the caution that helped Elliott there were fans saying that was intentional... was it? It will never end with this playoff system and Nascar is terrible at enforcing. They have a long history of doing nothing, it's hard to prove anyhow.
 
Dr_B_UNC said:
Very, very fair. Elliott came along 20 years too late. In the old Cup points system, he'd have multiples because he is methodical and will get what the car will give him that day. He's a points racer. But, this new playoff system favors guys like Larson, Chastain, etc who are hella talented but borderline wreckless at times. You can screw up and get mulligans in this system. That rewards the daring and, often, dumb. I tend to put Blaney more in Chase's category, but he is way more emotionally fragile and temper prone. I also will say that Chase can get to Blaney radio levels, it just takes a LOT. The schedule just lines up for Blaney. The final round and championship races come at tracks that Penske and Blaney excel at. It is what it is. Even in the old Chase format, I don't think Blaney wins a title. But he's champ under the rules that be and is very, very likely to go back to back. Major props to him. He's excelling at the game at hand.
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Yeah this is great..I do think Elliott can go off the handle like Blaney. My comment was moreso about their driving style.

Elliott is a guy who is just extremely efficient. Even if he isn't able to maximize the car overall, he's going to maximize a run.

Blaney is a guy who is just fast and is always trying to maximize his own speed, rather than the car's performance which makes me feel like if the setup isn't nailed, he can struggle and fly off the handle.

But his comments about consciously managing his rear tires show his improved racecraft


I don't have to say anything about Chase because he is who he is as a driver and he's been that way for a bit and he has frankly been there done that in terms of winning a championship, Dom anything races and just winning races.

Blaney on the other hand has really broken out as one of THE guys. Perineal threat. Champion. He flat out wasn't that guy 2 years ago, and I don't think anyone thought he'd end up this good.

I'm just really really impressed
 
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Dr_B_UNC said:
Nah. I don't think he gets another title. He has one, which is validating. At this rate, barring major changes, he may have 10 or so wins left. Just my .02
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I think him never winning a championship isn't an outrageous take, at a son agree with it. Although you could have said the same about Brad K.

But 10 more wins?

Come on man lol
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
See right there tough "he's the best in the biz." Larson fans say that so much and nothing deters them form that. To be clear, I am not necessarily disagreeing on that but at what point to we start to question this? He sure seems to wreck a lot of his own making for being as good as he is I will say that. Also - he needs to learn where the line is. If he does not spin out racing for the lead at Homestead he's in the final 4. No need to push that hard. If he is as good as everyone says he should know EXACTLY where that line is and stop crossing it so much. Again - don't get me wrong - I think he's the best too but at some point he needs to learn this. He is "prime" diving age where he should know where that line is.
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So, I think Logano is the best in the series behind the wheel...

But to your question if "when do we start to question this?"... Well... When the data tells us otherwise...

And since joining HMS...

As of the Roval (haven't updated my data since then)
- 1 championship
- 23 wins (11 more than the next best driver)
- 61 top 5's (8 more than anyone else)
- 79 top 10s (3 more than anyone else )
- Nearly 6000 laps lead, almost 2000 more laps than anyone else
- 12.83 average finish (3rd)
- 10 playoff wins (twice as much as anyone else)

We start questioning Larson being the best when the data tells us otherwise, and since joining HMS, despite crashing himself and all the flaws, he's doubled the field in wins, leads the series in top 5's, top 10's, laps lead, playoff wins, and is third in average finish.

I mean, come on. He's ranked 1st in every single statistical category since 2021, with the worst being average finish, in which he is... Wait for it...3rd best.

And if you focus just on gen 7.... No championships, 1st in wins, top 5's, laps lead, playoff wins, 2nd in top 10s, 3rd in average finish.

Larson has flaws as a driver and he's no Jimmie Johnson, Jeff Gordon or Tony Stewart..and all things equal, I think Logano is better.

But objectively, no one has performed better than Larson in the cup series and claiming he's the premiere driver in the series is much easier to defend with data than it is to challenge.

Larson overdrives, is mistake prone, and struggles with racecraft compared to other drivers who have been as talented. He also has been the best driver in the cup series. Both can be true.

And you sir .. you aren't objective when it comes to him, and you know it. And if you won't admit it, I'll declare it for you ;)

I don't think Larson is the greatest racecar driver ever, and I don't think he's the most talented driver I've seen in my lifetime as a NASCAR fan. But I think he's the best today in terms of results. Because he is
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
My only issue with Larson fans is comments like that right there. Larson has been better yes but he's been better than everyone, not just Chase and Chase is not as "distant" as people think. Considering everything that has gone wrong for him in that this new car just does not suit his style like the old did and the injury and having a crew chief that makes puzzling at best calls I think it's pretty amazing how well Chase is doing. Yes the wins and stage wins are lacking but those come when you have that raw speed and the CC is making the right calls too and more often than not AG misses them. Larson has supreme talent AND a top notch crew chief. Larson also makes a lot of head scratching mistakes that a driver of his level simply should not make and I'd like to see one Larson fan throw some criticism at him for it but none seem to.
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This is nonsense. I've been vocally critical here of him. And plenty of fans criticize his mistakes. Here as well. But this is what I'm talking about.

Elliott fans just have this completely unreasonable habit of criticizing or having issues with Larson fans, and that attitude is NOT reciprocated.

It feels very much like "Larson fans aren't welcome to HMS"

I sincerely think people generalize his fans to justify frustration. This attitude you discuss just doesn't show up here man.
 
jaqua19 said:
Yeah this is great..I do think Elliott can go off the handle like Blaney. My comment was moreso about their driving style.

Elliott is a guy who is just extremely efficient. Even if he isn't able to maximize the car overall, he's going to maximize a run.

Blaney is a guy who is just fast and is always trying to maximize his own speed, rather than the car's performance which makes me feel like if the setup isn't nailed, he can struggle and fly off the handle.

But his comments about consciously managing his rear tires show his improved racecraft


I don't have to say anything about Chase because he is who he is as a driver and he's been that way for a bit and he has frankly been there done that in terms of winning a championship, Dom anything races and just winning races.

Blaney on the other hand has really broken out as one of THE guys. Perineal threat. Champion. He flat out wasn't that guy 2 years ago, and I don't think anyone thought he'd end up this good.

I'm just really really impressed
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@Dr_B_UNC’s post is great, I’d love to have seen Chase in the 90’s, I think he’d done very well. He’s consistent, smooth, brings the car home.
 
StandOnIt said:
Nascar has opened up a can of worms.

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Oh **** off (NASCAR, not you)

NASCAR has gone public with being pro wrestling.

A legitimate racing series was something they could have (foolishly) tried to defend....

But this? It's reality tv. This is Survivor with Jeff Proberst ..


Production planted the immunity idol for Russell Hantz!!!


I mean Byron!
 
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