23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

Charlie Spencer said:
Based on the quote you posted in #2116, that's what the judge said, at least at the 'elite' level.
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Yeah I believe he opened up a mess for auto racing in general. If that sticks and Nascar is a monopoly, what about say about F-1 and Indycar for example are my thoughts. F-1 has requirements about who can race, Indycar/Penske who owns the series was talking about charters, I haven't followed where that is going.
 
StandOnIt said:
Using that logic, da judge in his own way is saying F-1 and Indycar are monopolistic also. Looks like he opened up a can of worms.

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IndyCar and F1 occupy similar spheres, they’re both open wheel series that race on road courses. Race fans know the difference but it would be easy for one of them to argue that the other represents a competitor.

There’s nothing close to NASCAR in the four fender world.
 
The group, including Gainbridge and others we’re familiar with here, behind the new Cadillac entry into F1 are preparing to pay $520 Million to secure their spot on the 2026 grid.

Expensive “charter”.
 
Naitch said:
IndyCar and F1 occupy similar spheres, they’re both open wheel series that race on road courses. Race fans know the difference but it would be easy for one of them to argue that the other represents a competitor.

There’s nothing close to NASCAR in the four fender world.
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similar spheres? About the only thing they have in common is that they have open wheels. One man Penske I believe owns the series outright.
 
StandOnIt said:
Are you trying to say there isn't any stock car racing besides Nascar?
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Good points, as I also conclude from this judge’s ruling, that IRL is a monopoly, F1, heck any racing with set parameters for just their league. Frankly this judge must have never been to or watched stock car racing. He’s a momma’s boy who likes to make cookies, decorate pocketbooks and try on momma’s clothes.
 
After some thought (what is that burning smell)...I saved the gif, then apparently right-clicked to post instead of clicking attach files?

Thank you to the mod that threw a bucket of sand over my mistake. See...I can own it. Was truly puzzled how it happened. Is quite frustrating that so many here are eager to attack your mistakes. Thought this was a forum for adults. Maybe posting gifs isn't completely "adult", but it's funny? YMMV.
 
aunty dive said:
The group, including Gainbridge and others we’re familiar with here, behind the new Cadillac entry into F1 are preparing to pay $520 Million to secure their spot on the 2026 grid.

Expensive “charter”.
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And it comes with rules, hoops they will have to jump thru in order to stay in the series. They are only going to get paid so much (that they agreed to), limited on how many cars they can have etc. Can't race anywhere else. Monopoly, anti trust?
 
StandOnIt said:
And it comes with rules, hoops they will have to jump thru in order to stay in the series. They are only going to get paid so much (that they agreed to), limited on how many cars they can have etc. Can't race anywhere else. Monopoly, anti trust?
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Sure. If someone feels sufficiently aggrieved they can take Liberty Media to court over it.

In August, the US DOJ was investigating the possibility of an antitrust action against F1’s commercial rights holder following Mario Andretti’s appearance before Congress to complain about the treatment given Andretti Autosports by Liberty.

Shortly after that, son Michael stepped aside, the real money stepped in and the new team was in business.
 
aunty dive said:
Sure. If someone feels sufficiently aggrieved they can take Liberty Media to court over it.

In August, the US DOJ was investigating the possibility of an antitrust action against F1’s commercial rights holder following Mario Andretti’s appearance before Congress to complain about the treatment given Andretti Autosports by Liberty.

Shortly after that, son Michael stepped aside, the real money stepped in and the new team was in business.
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That's similar in a way to 23XI and his little buddy Front Row. It is possible more teams will join the suit. If MJ is footing the bill probably so, but if he isn't I will be surprised if any do.
 
If the plaintiffs are successful, NASCAR will be paying the Kessler and Co invoices for legal services rendered. It won’t cost Jordan more than a few green fees and some clubhouse lunches.

NASCAR and its ownership group had their collective ass handed to them today. If they don’t find a way to negotiate a deal that they can live with while satisfying the teams, they’ll be facing a severe financial setback and a complete restructuring of their current business model.

Why would the other teams officially join the circus? All they have to do is sit back and wait for the benefits to accrue.
 
aunty dive said:
If the plaintiffs are successful, NASCAR will be paying the Kessler and Co invoices for legal services rendered. It won’t cost Jordan more than a few green fees and some clubhouse lunches.

NASCAR and its ownership group had their collective ass handed to them today. If they don’t find a way to negotiate a deal that they can live with while satisfying the teams, they’ll be facing a severe financial setback and a complete restructuring of their current business model.

Why would the other teams officially join the circus? All they have to do is sit back and wait for the benefits to accrue.
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Plus, won’t NASCAR financials be revealed in court?
 
aunty dive said:
If the plaintiffs are successful, NASCAR will be paying the Kessler and Co invoices for legal services rendered. It won’t cost Jordan more than a few green fees and some clubhouse lunches.

NASCAR and its ownership group had their collective ass handed to them today. If they don’t find a way to negotiate a deal that they can live with while satisfying the teams, they’ll be facing a severe financial setback and a complete restructuring of their current business model.

Why would the other teams officially join the circus? All they have to do is sit back and wait for the benefits to accrue.
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As a judgement on the present injunction, it was a smack down on NASCAR. Was it a correct decision? I do believe NASCAR will appeal, with grounds available. Then it goes to a different judge, who could change everything. But game is DEFINITELY ON.
 
StandOnIt said:
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THIS RIGHT HERE is why I think a lot of owners were reluctant to join the lawsuit. By putting their own charters at risk, they could very likely be in breach of their driver, sponsor, and probably manufacturer contracts, and possibly even some other contracted employees. That's a LOT of expensive and potentially business fatal long term consequences that might convince guys like Rick, Richard and the rest to just raise the white flag and surrender, even if they were in full sympathy with the plaintiffs.
 
The thing that I have learned is that we need more civil lawsuit TV.

Most everybody is an expert when it comes to murder trials thanks to Law and Order, Barnaby Jones, Perry Mason, Ironside etc.

But there is real famine of civil lawsuit knowlede, jargon, procedures, and the laws.

TV has failed us.
 
Judge Bell...
“Plaintiffs have established that they are likely to succeed on their claims that 1) NASCAR has monopoly power in the market for premier stock car racing and 2) to the extent that NASCAR’s 2025 Charter Agreement includes a release that bars teams from asserting the antitrust claims asserted by Plaintiffs, such a provision would be a violation of the antitrust laws,” he continued. “Further, Plaintiffs have shown that in the absence of guaranteed entry into all races as a chartered team, they will likely suffer irreparable harm through the loss of contractual control over their best drivers and the resulting inability to field their best race team.”

The quote above, reported by Jordan Bianchi for The Athletic, was a shocker to me. "Likely to succeed on their claims" seems very strong and clear. And the part about Nascar's release clause of antitrust claims, the infamous section 10.3 of the charter contract, in and of itself violates antitrust laws... wow. I've sorta wondered about that, but all the media has been silent on that particular very crucial point.

In addition, Judge Bell seems to concur that the relevant market for this case is premier-level stock car racing rather than something broader. (NASCAR tried in early briefs to claim the relevant market was "professional sports and entertainment" LMAO.)

My personal, non-lawyer opinion is that issuing the preliminary injunction is the proper decision, as it maintains the status quo conditions while the lawsuit is pending. But I'm still shocked to see such a forcefully worded decision from the judge.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Judge Bell...
“Plaintiffs have established that they are likely to succeed on their claims that 1) NASCAR has monopoly power in the market for premier stock car racing and 2) to the extent that NASCAR’s 2025 Charter Agreement includes a release that bars teams from asserting the antitrust claims asserted by Plaintiffs, such a provision would be a violation of the antitrust laws,” he continued. “Further, Plaintiffs have shown that in the absence of guaranteed entry into all races as a chartered team, they will likely suffer irreparable harm through the loss of contractual control over their best drivers and the resulting inability to field their best race team.”

The quote above, reported by Jordan Bianchi for The Athletic, was a shocker to me. "Likely to succeed on their claims" seems very strong and clear. And the part about Nascar's release clause of antitrust claims, the infamous section 10.3 of the charter contract, in and of itself violates antitrust laws... wow. I've sorta wondered about that, but all the media has been silent on that particular very crucial point.

In addition, Judge Bell seems to concur that the relevant market for this case is premier-level stock car racing rather than something broader. (NASCAR tried in early briefs to claim the relevant market was "professional sports and entertainment" LMAO.)

My personal, non-lawyer opinion is that issuing the preliminary injunction is the proper decision, as it maintains the status quo conditions while the lawsuit is pending. But I'm still shocked to see such a forcefully worded decision from the judge.
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Judge Bell also said this.

While U.S. District Court Judge Kenneth Bell wrote that he "does not reach and expresses no opinion as to Plaintiffs’ likelihood of success on their other Sherman Act claims," he later added: "The Court finds that NASCAR possesses monopoly/monopsony power in the relevant market."
 
I wonder whose brilliant strategy decision caused the new charter agreement to include a clause forbidding antitrust actions by the teams? A clause that in and of itself violates antitrust law.

Did NASCAR’s highly rated antitrust legal team review and approve the document”s wording before it went out at 5pm demanding signature by midnight?

And people wonder why some competitors have had enough of the high-handed arrogance displayed by this example of the sanctioning body’s “business practices”?
 
aunty dive said:
I wonder whose brilliant strategy decision caused the new charter agreement to include a clause forbidding antitrust actions by the teams? A clause that in and of itself violates antitrust law.

Did NASCAR’s highly rated antitrust legal team review and approve the document”s wording before it went out at 5pm demanding signature by midnight?

And people wonder why some competitors have had enough of the high-handed arrogance displayed by this example of the sanctioning body’s “business practices”?
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Probably because they had been threatened with it. 23XI wasn't around for the last contract signing.
 
aunty dive said:
I wonder whose brilliant strategy decision caused the new charter agreement to include a clause forbidding antitrust actions by the teams? A clause that in and of itself violates antitrust law.
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I wonder if this clause was new to the 2025 agreement, or if it's been in previous ones and it wasn't public knowledge?

Did NASCAR have any intellectual property rights specified in the last contract? Is this something new with the Next Gen or did it apply to previous car generations? if it's new to this contract, that might also be in 23FRM's favor.

I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 
wi_racefan said:
So they should just give up on making money?
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They're still going to make the same money. Owning the charters doesn't earn much, if anything beyond the transfer fees. Those aren't going away.

They should have recognized the inevitable and accepted the owners' request to transfer ownership of the charters from NASCAR to the teams. Now they're going to wind up doing so and it will have only cost them several million dollars in legal fees. This isn't hindsight; many here and elsewhere have said for a couple of years that this is all about charter ownership, pure and simple.
 
Formerjackman said:
THIS RIGHT HERE is why I think a lot of owners were reluctant to join the lawsuit. By putting their own charters at risk, they could very likely be in breach of their driver, sponsor, and probably manufacturer contracts, and possibly even some other contracted employees. That's a LOT of expensive and potentially business fatal long term consequences that might convince guys like Rick, Richard and the rest to just raise the white flag and surrender, even if they were in full sympathy with the plaintiffs.
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Michael Jordan has been spotted in Vegas a time or a million.....not afraid of pushing the chips to the center of the table. Fascinating that the other owners have never had the balls. They didn't get there by folding.....
 
Revman said:
Michael Jordan has been spotted in Vegas a time or a million.....not afraid of pushing the chips to the center of the table. Fascinating that the other owners have never had the balls. They didn't get there by folding.....
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Michael MAY have had assurances from his key partners that they would be willing to work with him on this that others may not have had. There is also the fact that Michael has less to lose than many others. He hasn't spent 30-50 years or more building his program, his driver lineup would be no earth shattering loss if they left, and Michael has the advantage that people are lined up at the door to be on Team Mike. He could find other sponsors or another manufacturer far more easily than most of his fellow owners. He could also just walk away, which would be a lot harder for the guys that have devoted their life to it. For all of these reasons and more, Michael is really the right guy to carry the torch on this.
 
Conover said:
THIS is what we were quiet about…just waiting until the appeal was announced.

Don’t start dancing in the end zone when there’s a flag on the field.
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I was under the impression of what my ol' daddy used to say. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.
word to the wise, this deal probably isn't going to be over anytime soon. There are going to be many punch/counter punches. It's Nascar's turn to appeal.
Part of the appeal
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