23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

SlicedBread22 said:
If anyone thinks these team owners aren't drooling at the idea of getting parts wherever they want you're absolutely insane. It may not be what this is all about but you could bet on the fact Joe Gibbs and Rick Hendrick are sitting back just rubbing their hands together with a big evil grin just waiting for the verdict.
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How do you think they're getting these "parts" and what do you think they want with them? Like, do you really think Michael Jordan wants to own a race track and not benefit from any sort of operational scale that NASCAR has? Or that Bob Jenkins desires to run a regional Nextgen series? That's the part that utterly baffles me about this. The teams dismantling NASCAR would lose all the value of those parts. They know that so well that they negotiated the existence of charters with NASCAR and apparently in the process became franchises in NASCAR.

Is the genesis of this that people forgot what NASCAR was like in it's boom era in terms of how the sport was structured and how tracks managed promotion AND television deals? I'm being serious here. This isn't even remotely as radical as a reversion to that.
 
aunty dive said:
In the meantime, I’m trying to understand why any team owner in his right mind would rather employ more people and buy half a dozen very expensive Haas 5 axis milling machines and an autoclave much larger than anything he currently has in order to produce front / rear suspension control arms, hub carriers, etc. and carbon fiber diffusers and under trays when all he currently has to do is pick up the phone or log on to the suppliers’ websites to place his orders.
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I know you know this, but SERIOUS racers are always perusing what Donohue called the "Unfair Advantage". The thrill of winning what cannot just be outright bought is just too much of an aphrodisiac. Always remember 1994. Roger Penske spent tens of millions of dollars to win ONE race, a race he had already won nine times and one that he probably had a 60-70% chance of winning without spending an extra dime. That's why when car owners bleat about cutting costs and saving money, I just put them on ignore because I know they are talking out of both sides of their mouth.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
But since we're backtracking, I'm still waiting to hear any economic reasons why 23XI and FRM would want to run the NextGen outside of NASCAR Cup. Winning the lawsuit doesn't seem to offer any economic opportunities outside of Cup.

racing-forums.com

23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

racing-forums.com racing-forums.com

For that matter, I'm still waiting to hear what differences Saudi ownership has made in PGA play.
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The ABILITY or POWER to run in any racing series outside of NASCAR using the same or extremely similar equipment is in and of itself, a HUGE leverage factor for teams. Don’t like the new or current terms/money/decisions of NASCAR? Threaten to take your cars and drivers elsewhere, for a few races or to join others and start your own series. NASCAR can’t manage, promote, develop and stage the best racing in America if they can’t regulate how the teams race within the series.

Can you see this now? Some here only think in the literal space they’ve been able to see/read/hear so far via TV, correspondents, articles, etc. “No teams have said anything about such things”, or “no way they’d do that”. Well…of COURSE they won’t SAY IT OUT LOUD…(Hambone might but they quickly shut him up after his first diarrhea mouth moment). What DO they want? Jenkins may just want to own his charters. I think the cabal behind Jordan see a bigger fish and want much more.
 
Both sides want the chance to make their case in person under oral arguments and will get the chance to do so at 2 p.m. on Wednesday January 8.

The below timeline in the case is now what is currently on the docket.

  • Wednesday January 8, 2025 | Hearing on motion to dismiss
  • Friday January 10, 2025 | Rule 26 Disclosures
  • Friday January 31, 2025 | Designation of Mediator
  • Saturday March 15, 2025 | Amendment of the Pleadings
  • Monday June 30, 2025 | Close of Fact Discovery
  • Friday September 19, 2025 | Completion of Discover
  • Wednesday September 24, 2025 | Mediation Report
  • Wednesday October 1, 2025 | Filing of Dispositive Motions
  • Monday December 1, 2025 | Trial
 
Conover said:
Can you see this now? Some here only think in the literal space they’ve been able to see/read/hear so far via TV, correspondents, articles, etc. “No teams have said anything about such things”, or “no way they’d do that”. Well…of COURSE they won’t SAY IT OUT LOUD…(Hambone might but they quickly shut him up after his first diarrhea mouth moment). What DO they want? Jenkins may just want to own his charters. I think the cabal behind Jordan see a bigger fish and want much more.
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So … Michael Jordan is fronting an evil cabal
fomenting an insidious plot to stage a coup and overthrow France? But Bob Jenkins is an innocent bystander who just wants to keep his 300 Taco Belle stores?

This story gets better every day. 😎
 
Conover said:
Threaten to take your cars and drivers elsewhere, for a few races or to join others and start your own series.
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Where would they take them? The NextGen wouldn't pass inspection in other existing series. If they attempted to start a new series, how would they overcome the economic challenges I've already listed?
 
Conover said:
The ABILITY or POWER to run in any racing series outside of NASCAR using the same or extremely similar equipment is in and of itself, a HUGE leverage factor for teams. Don’t like the new or current terms/money/decisions of NASCAR? Threaten to take your cars and drivers elsewhere, for a few races or to join others and start your own series. NASCAR can’t manage, promote, develop and stage the best racing in America if they can’t regulate how the teams race within the series.

Can you see this now? Some here only think in the literal space they’ve been able to see/read/hear so far via TV, correspondents, articles, etc. “No teams have said anything about such things”, or “no way they’d do that”. Well…of COURSE they won’t SAY IT OUT LOUD…(Hambone might but they quickly shut him up after his first diarrhea mouth moment). What DO they want? Jenkins may just want to own his charters. I think the cabal behind Jordan see a bigger fish and want much more.
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First, what leverage? It's only leverage if they had a TV contract lined up to pay for the events. Otherwise the only events it'll participate in are SCCA Track Days.

Second, do you really think there's a conspiracy using Michael Jordan to destroy NASCAR? Is this your actual belief?
 
virtualbalboa said:
How do you think they're getting these "parts" and what do you think they want with them? Like, do you really think Michael Jordan wants to own a race track and not benefit from any sort of operational scale that NASCAR has? Or that Bob Jenkins desires to run a regional Nextgen series? That's the part that utterly baffles me about this. The teams dismantling NASCAR would lose all the value of those parts. They know that so well that they negotiated the existence of charters with NASCAR and apparently in the process became franchises in NASCAR.

Is the genesis of this that people forgot what NASCAR was like in it's boom era in terms of how the sport was structured and how tracks managed promotion AND television deals? I'm being serious here. This isn't even remotely as radical as a reversion to that.
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I'm not sure what you're on about. When did I say anything that has to do with anything you just said?

I'm talking about the teams gaining an unfair competitive advantage in NASCAR by using parts that nobody else is using.

Wait, you really thought that I meant they wanted to buy parts so they could build a car and race it somewhere else? You know they already have the cars, right? 🤣 🤣 🤣
 
Formerjackman said:
I know you know this, but SERIOUS racers are always perusing what Donohue called the "Unfair Advantage". The thrill of winning what cannot just be outright bought is just too much of an aphrodisiac. Always remember 1994. Roger Penske spent tens of millions of dollars to win ONE race, a race he had already won nine times and one that he probably had a 60-70% chance of winning without spending an extra dime. That's why when car owners bleat about cutting costs and saving money, I just put them on ignore because I know they are talking out of both sides of their mouth.
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Wait, more money than others' combined with access to better parts can cause a team to have an unfair advantage?! What? No waaaaaay! *sarcasm*
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Where would they take them? The NextGen wouldn't pass inspection in other existing series. If they attempted to start a new series, how would they overcome the economic challenges I've already listed?
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As others have said, I don't believe these arguments exist for ANY other reason than to show in court that NASCAR has a monopoly and to get a more favorable deal from them. Winning a court case is FAR different than real world reality, something even I have remind myself of from time to time. ESPECIALLY in civil court, it only matters what you can get enough people to believe, not whether that argument has any actual merit or practical outcome.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Wait, you really thought that I meant they wanted to buy parts so they could build a car and race it somewhere else? You know they already have the cars, right?
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They have 7 for each existing team. =IF= they were to break away, eventually they'd need replacements.

But they're not going anywhere.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
They have 7 for each existing team. =IF= they were to break away, eventually they'd need replacements.

But they're not going anywhere.
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I never thought they were going anywhere. Didn't even really cross my mind as an actual thing that might happen. Just because they're being sued for monopolizing the industry doesn't mean someone else wants to enter the industry as competition.
 
hmmm298 said:
Has anyone ever thought this could all be a grand plan by Denny to force them to settle and finally award him a championship in exchange.
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Which cabal is backing that, the Illuminati, the KKK, Hollywood elites, the medical-industrial complex, or 'Big Needlecraft'?
 
In 2015, Hendrick Motorsports owner Rick Hendrick stated that negotiations with NASCAR to "create some sort of permanent value for the teams" were occurring in response to a phenomenon where if a team shut down, the owners would most likely go into debt as they could not sell off their equipment for their proper worth

en.wikipedia.org

Race Team Alliance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Interesting that the RTA hired an anti trust lawyer but nothing became of it and all but two signed the charter.

By February 2024, the RTA hired an antitrust lawyer, along with Hendrick Motorsports' vice chairman Jeff Gordon claiming that the team, despite being one of the most successful, had not made a profit within the last decade.[33] In October, 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports, who declined to sign the 2025 charter agreement, filed a lawsuit against NASCAR on antitrust grounds regarding the charter system.
 
Hmmm I wonder why Nascar had a provision in their contract about racing anywhere else along with not messing with their car? Maybe some of you charter only people can answer that? Type slowly, ok for us that have been exploring that exact thing.

With this news, the RTA has now publicly stated that they’re exploring hosting races outside of the NASCAR sanction while using top NASCAR talent. That’s a worrisome development.
racingnews.co

NASCAR teams could soon host exhibition races, without NASCAR

NASCAR teams could host exhibition races, without NASCAR. Teams are currently looking for more revenue as contract negotiations are ongoing.
racingnews.co racingnews.co
 
This was written before the PGA was consumed by a backer who invested 2 billion to do so.

A similar situation played out this year in the world of Golf. Many of the world’s top players left the PGA Tour for a new LIV Golf Series which paid significantly more to their players. The PGA responded by banning those players from any PGA events yet they’ve also increased revenue share to their own players as a result of the competing league. The sport of Golf is now divided.
 
Here were the two that were on that negotiating committee above. See any familiar names?

RTA Negotiating Committee​

Steve Newark
President RFK Racing

Curtis Polk
Co-Owner 23XI Racing
 
StandOnIt said:
Hmmm I wonder why Nascar had a provision in their contract about racing anywhere else along with not messing with their car? Maybe some of you charter only people can answer that? Type slowly, ok for us that have been exploring that exact thing.

With this news, the RTA has now publicly stated that they’re exploring hosting races outside of the NASCAR sanction while using top NASCAR talent. That’s a worrisome development.
racingnews.co

NASCAR teams could soon host exhibition races, without NASCAR

NASCAR teams could host exhibition races, without NASCAR. Teams are currently looking for more revenue as contract negotiations are ongoing.
racingnews.co racingnews.co
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The article is dated November 30, 2022.

The RTA doesn’t appear to be making much progress on this front.
 
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StandOnIt said:
This was written before the PGA was consumed by a backer who invested 2 billion to do so.

A similar situation played out this year in the world of Golf. Many of the world’s top players left the PGA Tour for a new LIV Golf Series which paid significantly more to their players. The PGA responded by banning those players from any PGA events yet they’ve also increased revenue share to their own players as a result of the competing league. The sport of Golf is now divided.
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This is odd.

Isn’t it your usual position that NASCAR racing has nothing to do with and cannot be compared to stick and ball sports in any way?
 
aunty dive said:
This is odd.

Isn’t it your usual position that NASCAR racing has nothing to do with and cannot be compared to stick and ball sports in any way?
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That's club and ball, different dynamics there.

I think @StandOnIt makes an interesting case despite the contradictions. I could not disagree more, but he's fleshed out what he is worried about.
 
aunty dive said:
This is odd.

Isn’t it your usual position that NASCAR racing has nothing to do with and cannot be compared to stick and ball sports in any way?
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Having trouble grasping a sports business being taken over by some of the similar items that are on the Anti trust suit that 23XI are suing for are ya?
 
gnomesayin said:
That's club and ball, different dynamics there.

I think @StandOnIt makes an interesting case despite the contradictions. I could not disagree more, but he's fleshed out what he is worried about.
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Fine that you disagree, but the clownish antics that some continue to do and say about other posters that dare to suggest that in addition to whatever other posters think the teams are suing for, other issues could also be involved/or not is getting old as hell.
 
StandOnIt said:
Fine that you disagree, but the clownish antics that some continue to do and say about other posters that dare to suggest that in addition to whatever other posters think the teams are suing for, other issues could also be involved/or not is getting old as hell.
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No-one has said a word about other posters or behaved in a clownish manner.
 
aunty dive said:
So … Michael Jordan is fronting an evil cabal
fomenting an insidious plot to stage a coup and overthrow France? But Bob Jenkins is an innocent bystander who just wants to keep his 300 Taco Belle stores?

This story gets better every day. 😎
Click to expand...
This is just one of many, it was handy. Can't we try to be adults here?
evil cabal? fomenting an insidious plot to overthrow France?

A cabal is a group of people who are united in some close design, usually to promote their private views or interests in an ideology, a state, or another community, often by intrigue and usually without the knowledge of those who are outside their group.
 
It was intended to inject a little humour into a conversation that in my opinion had gone over the top.

You don’t think it’s funny. I’m okay with that.
 
StandOnIt said:
This is just one of many, it was handy. Can't we try to be adults here?
evil cabal? fomenting an insidious plot to overthrow France?

A cabal is a group of people who are united in some close design, usually to promote their private views or interests in an ideology, a state, or another community, often by intrigue and usually without the knowledge of those who are outside their group.
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You might tell @Conover . He's the one that brought the cabal notion back in post 2443, apparently seriously.
Conover said:
Jenkins may just want to own his charters. I think the cabal behind Jordan see a bigger fish and want much more.
Click to expand...
 
Charlie Spencer said:
You might tell @Conover . He's the one that brought the cabal notion back in post 2443, apparently seriously.
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That is what you can call a group of private investors a CABAL. All the last couple of pages has been is trying to ridicule others who have different ideas then some of you do. Fact of the matter is none of us know how this is going to turn out. You are not "right" and everybody else is wrong. You my friend have an opinion...so do others.
 
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