Next Gen Chassis Usage in Non Cup Racing

KTMLew01

KTMLew01

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The lawsuit has a crucial point that NASCAR owns the design of the car and dictates where the chassis can be used. For 50+ years old Cup cars were used in ARCA when the Cup days were over. So the question I have is, does the Next Gen EVER get used in ARCA "as-is" or instead, since the clips bolt on, do they create new "old-school" clips with conventional suspension so the teams can use their existing parts? Does the driveline tunnel have enough room for a 4 speed transmission or easily/cheaply modified? That seems to me the main question.

IF they can build somewhat conventional front and rear clips even if they have to use coil-over shocks, and a quick-change solid rear axle be optional probably 3 link with coil-overs, seems like could be done. Then could use the 15" wheels and brake packages. Whole lot cheaper. Just read an article that claimed Next Gen Car ready to race is $350K each minimum. Yikes! Are current ARCA teams building brand new chassis? Talking about the hard parts/frame/cage NOT the body.

Suppose maybe real question is...would that car be faster than the current Next Gen? Guess that possibility would kill the whole idea. Because NASCAR sure wouldn't like that.
 
Essentially what I'm thinking is NASCAR allows ARCA teams to buy the center cage section and body work, build or buy rest themselves from their own sources. Anyway you figure it, selling more product is profitable. And NASCAR is all about the money.
 
Xfinity and ARCA are going to be spec/kit cars soon enough. As will everything else in short track racing that isn't a kit already. The days of fabrication, junkyard picking, and hand-me-down parts from other cars and series is rapidly going extinct. The new takeoff of Crown Vic racing is happening because there are the last cheap and plentiful cars that you can turn into a racecar.

I do not see NextGen cars ever racing in ARCA or any other series.
 
When I saw highlights of a recent ARCA race, I was wondering what they will do for cars once it gets harder to get a Gen6 chassis. They'll be around a while. Still, that time will come. I agree with Speedbowl14, I don't see the Gen7 car in ARCA. I guess they'll get retired Xfinity cars.
 
When NASCAR moved to the COT, that broke the relationship between NASCAR Cup and ARCA having basically identical car specifications. To my knowledge, ARCA is still essentially a Gen 4 series with spec motors from Ilmor or Yates and something approximating a BOP for cars that still hang metal bodies instead of composite. Not that anyone with a steel body is anywhere near the leader's pace in modern ARCA but whatever.

ARCA exists as nothing more than a manner to let people with absolutely no experience race at superspeedways. It does nothing else of value for driver development. Even that: how much can you learn if half the field is trash and outside plate tracks there's only 15 cars?
 
virtualbalboa said:
When NASCAR moved to the COT, that broke the relationship between NASCAR Cup and ARCA having basically identical car specifications. To my knowledge, ARCA is still essentially a Gen 4 series with spec motors from Ilmor or Yates and something approximating a BOP for cars that still hang metal bodies instead of composite. Not that anyone with a steel body is anywhere near the leader's pace in modern ARCA but whatever.

ARCA exists as nothing more than a manner to let people with absolutely no experience race at superspeedways. It does nothing else of value for driver development. Even that: how much can you learn if half the field is trash and outside plate tracks there's only 15 cars?
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Composite bodies have been mandatory in ARCA for a few years now. 396 big blocks producing 700 H.P. In ARCA they race short, intermediate, Super Speedways, road courses and Dirt. What other series besides the higher up Nascar series offer anything close to the experience a driver can have that wants to move up in the higher series? The series also has privateers at various skill levels.
 
virtualbalboa said:
ARCA exists as nothing more than a manner to let people with absolutely no experience race at superspeedways. It does nothing else of value for driver development.
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I don’t see it as driver development as much as a showcase for drivers to demonstrate whether they merit moving to a developmental series.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I don’t see it as driver development as much as a showcase for drivers to demonstrate whether they merit moving to a developmental series.
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If they are running for Venturini or Gibbs and one of the Chevy teams they are in the pipeline. Not every one of them, some have pretty good sponsorship that allows them to race in the series for the better teams. They found a place for Zilisch last year, Heim raced in the series, Swalitch, Brent Crews, Corey Day, Thad Moffit, Brenden Queen.
 
virtualbalboa said:
When NASCAR moved to the COT, that broke the relationship between NASCAR Cup and ARCA having basically identical car specifications. To my knowledge, ARCA is still essentially a Gen 4 series with spec motors from Ilmor or Yates and something approximating a BOP for cars that still hang metal bodies instead of composite. Not that anyone with a steel body is anywhere near the leader's pace in modern ARCA but whatever.

ARCA exists as nothing more than a manner to let people with absolutely no experience race at superspeedways. It does nothing else of value for driver development. Even that: how much can you learn if half the field is trash and outside plate tracks there's only 15 cars?
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My theoretical Next Gen/ARCA car would use Gen 4 or whatever is commonly available, suspension/steering/rear diff, they are using now. That was my point. The clips aren't a big deal to fabricate especially if they dump the transaxle.
 
StandOnIt said:
Composite bodies have been mandatory in ARCA for a few years now. 396 big blocks producing 700 H.P. In ARCA they race short, intermediate, Super Speedways, road courses and Dirt. What other series besides the higher up Nascar series offer anything close to the experience a driver can have that wants to move up in the higher series? The series also has privateers at various skill levels.
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They don't race dirt in any of the three major NASCAR touring series, so while I appreciate it being different, it is meaningless as preparation for Cup, Xfinity, or Trucks. Similarly I don't know that there's anything about ARCA that makes it a superior option for getting seat time vs. a super late model stock car when it comes to anything the size of Richmond or smaller. There's no way in hell that ARCA is the best option for training to run Cup on road courses if for no other reason than the aero and diffusers completely changing the handling characteristics (and likely making GT racing a better option).

It doesn't even separate out the wheat from chaff before getting to Trucks. ARCA money is indistinguishable from Truck money; anyone who has the intention of moving up will regardless of their performance in ARCA. We've seen that time and again for years.
 
virtualbalboa said:
They don't race dirt in any of the three major NASCAR touring series, so while I appreciate it being different, it is meaningless as preparation for Cup, Xfinity, or Trucks. Similarly I don't know that there's anything about ARCA that makes it a superior option for getting seat time vs. a super late model stock car when it comes to anything the size of Richmond or smaller. There's no way in hell that ARCA is the best option for training to run Cup on road courses if for no other reason than the aero and diffusers completely changing the handling characteristics (and likely making GT racing a better option).

It doesn't even separate out the wheat from chaff before getting to Trucks. ARCA money is indistinguishable from Truck money; anyone who has the intention of moving up will regardless of their performance in ARCA. We've seen that time and again for years.
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Take dirt out if that bothers you so much, like I said, there is nothing out there at that level that gives a driver the experience to transcend to higher levels. It laughable to think an ARCA car costs the same as the Truck series. You aren't going to get anything but short track experience in a late model. The facilities are light years difference, speeds are low and drivers are lost at road courses and larger tracks. Very rare to see anybody from late models jump over ARCA into a truck and be successful. I don't know of any.
 
They have to get some seat time somewhere. I would prefer seeing a kid getting time in an ARCA, Legends, or a Late Model car before trying the trucks or xfinity (unless they have a William Byron PC).
 
I think they called him Wee Willy when he raced in CARS and ARCA. Probably computer less and Rick Allen less back then.
 
StandOnIt said:
Take dirt out if that bothers you so much, like I said, there is nothing out there at that level that gives a driver the experience to transcend to higher levels. It laughable to think an ARCA car costs the same as the Truck series. You aren't going to get anything but short track experience in a late model. The facilities are light years difference, speeds are low and drivers are lost at road courses and larger tracks. Very rare to see anybody from late models jump over ARCA into a truck and be successful. I don't know of any.
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I don't think it's at all laughable. Why do you think there are 30+ trucks entered at every race and <20 at most ARCA ones? Also, who gets to skip ARCA ever? NASCAR can just force guys to run it for licensing purposes. Why wouldn't they? ARCA income is NASCAR income.
 
virtualbalboa said:
I don't think it's at all laughable. Why do you think there are 30+ trucks entered at every race and <20 at most ARCA ones? Also, who gets to skip ARCA ever? NASCAR can just force guys to run it for licensing purposes. Why wouldn't they? ARCA income is NASCAR income.
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It's called sponsorship over a larger audience. Every Truck race is broadcast on either Fox or FS-1. Trucks go thru more tires than most of the ARCA budgets. Have full time athletic pit crews, C'mon man.
 
StandOnIt said:
Have full time athletic pit crews
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Full time? Where are those crews when the trucks run standalone events and are doing scheduled, non-competitive, 5-minute stops? They're at their real full-time jobs, wherever the Cup teams are running.

Otherwise I'm in agreement with you.
 
StandOnIt said:
It's called sponsorship over a larger audience. Every Truck race is broadcast on either Fox or FS-1. Trucks go thru more tires than most of the ARCA budgets. Have full time athletic pit crews, C'mon man.
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100+ cars showed up to Knoxville this month; in no universe is Dirtvision getting larger viewership than FS1. ROI exists and ARCA has way less of it than the Trucks while costing not all that different. I mean, you yourself pointed out that ARCA has competitive pit stops, and we all know the Trucks run standalones without them. How do competitive pit stops benefit driver development to series that don't have them or at all? I mean, I know the real answer is that if you're renting a ride from Venturini, you expect to be made to look as good as possible for the next ladder rung and the pit stops help you look better than you are. I just want to know how you imagine this stuff working in this weird, disassociated from reality context.
 
Also, I actually did deal with the question of "How many drivers skip ARCA?" two years ago and the answer is "most of them at least as full time drivers":

V

Thread 'ARCA Hasn't Mattered For Years'

INSPIRED BY A THREAD ON THIS FORUM~!: I'm just going to throw something out there that needs to be said. ARCA doesn't matter for driver development. ARCA doesn't develop meaningful, top tier Cup talent and has not successfully done so for a generation. This is hard for some people to accept, but one look at the car counts for current ARCA races doesn't lie. Nor do lists of past champions. Certainly it graduates drivers, but what kind of drivers does it graduate?

Well, I went ahead and looked at the Cup series in 2023 and pulled out all 16 competitors for the Chase. What did I...

Martin Truex Jr. never even made a single ARCA start. Clearly a huge impact negatively on his career.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Full time? Where are those crews when the trucks run standalone events and are doing scheduled, non-competitive, 5-minute stops? They're at their real full-time jobs, wherever the Cup teams are running.

Otherwise I'm in agreement with you.
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Most of the teams top teams are affiliated with the same teams in Cup or Xfinity. How many times does that happen a season ol' muddy the water? Once? Twice? at the most a year?
 
virtualbalboa said:
. I mean, you yourself pointed out that ARCA has competitive pit stops, and we all know the Trucks run standalones without them.
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No I didn't. ARCA doesn't have competitive pit stops. The Trucks do have competitive pit stops. Again. Pit Crews cost money. Truck pit crews cost much more than ARCA. Drivers who are fast in ARCA don't stay around long. They get seen, racing on the big tracks by people who have the resources to advance their careers.
 
Personally I don't think it is a point of argument to worry about who skips ARCA or who doesn't as a reason to say the ARCA series is irreverent. We have drivers funneling in to Nascar from just about every series out there. The drivers are good, skillful and the Nascar series is where some of the best competition and payouts of any series out there.
 
For the sake of the argument, I'll agree that ARCA isn't a hotbed of driver development for a while. So what? Is anyone being harmed by the continuation of this series? They make a decent sideshow when they're scheduled on the same day as a Truck or X race.

Regarding chassis, did we decided they're limping along on older Cup chassis as long as they can get them?
 
I'm mostly interested in whether my ARCA/Next Gen Chassis uses a rack & pinion or conventional steering box. And does it use big coil springs and regular shocks or coilovers. The old school 9 inch or a quickchange? I already said 15" five lug STEEL wheels. Run what they already own.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
For the sake of the argument, I'll agree that ARCA isn't a hotbed of driver development for a while. So what? Is anyone being harmed by the continuation of this series? They make a decent sideshow when they're scheduled on the same day as a Truck or X race.

Regarding chassis, did we decided they're limping along on older Cup chassis as long as they can get them?
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I'm pretty hyped today to see how this evening's ARCA race goes. Big day for the fellow Okie Kaylee Bryson. She's a GT champion, first women to win a USAC race, Made the A feature in midgets at the Chili Bowl and is getting her first shot in an ARCA race.
Queen and Isabella who come from the supers have been a draw for me also. I don't freakin care where they come from particularly, I care that I get the ability to watch and ARCA has the coverage.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Regarding chassis, did we decided they're limping along on older Cup chassis as long as they can get them?
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No, this thread was about everything but the question that was asked by the OP.

Is ARCA even using Gen 6 chassis underneath the composite bodies?
Frankie Muniz was running Sterling Marlin's 2001 car during his first start at Daytona.
 
There are a number of drivers currently in Xfinity and Cup that have raced in ARCA within the last 5 or 6 years. It's just one avenue for a driver to get noticed.

Back on topic, NASCAR's partners build the NextGen cars. I don't see those cars going to anyone that is not in the Cup series. Especially now with the tension between NASCAR and 23XI with rumors of a split going around. NASCAR would not want a competitive series racing their own cars.
 
The fallacy of this whole thing is that the Next Gen chassis would take so much work to adapt to any racing series nobody in their right mind would attempt it. No Nascar type series is set up for a trans axle and the series that do have trans axles, they have their own designs that they use. The setups in the front aren't anything special. There isn't any shortage of ARCA cars, there are tons of chassis out there. Many are years old in the series that have been fixed and re-fixed. No shortage of parts and pieces to do that. Somebody built all those to start with. Bent tubing. A bunch of chassis builders out there that do just that.
 
StandOnIt said:
No shortage of parts and pieces to do that. Somebody built all those to start with. Bent tubing. A bunch of chassis builders out there that do just that.
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Since both clips bolt on the Next Gen, said fab guys could build both ends in a day. Put the ole 9 inch in the rear. That was my point but you probably didn't read my drivel.
 
It doesn't make any sense at this point. The damaged sections are sent back, repaired and sent back to the teams.
 
A front or rear clip with known good geometry is available from a # of sources NOT just from the current builder. Howe has always built their chassis in sections. Makes it easier to repair the car. A clip off one of these is a great example. Gets the rack back down where it belongs and uses "let's-not-kill-the-driver" round tubing for the upper section. Doesn't have holes punched thru the tubing to make it collapsible.

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