2016 brickyard 400 worst race I have ever seen.

Skoalbandit33 said:
There are beer snobs, clothing snobs, automobile snobs and racing snobs and I have never cared for any of them. Nascar has always been about beatin and bangin and rubbin and it is not smart or dumb but just the product it provides.
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Thank you for inferring I am a snob, much appreciated. From my very first day on this board last year, I have been a vocal supporter of hard-nosed, aggressive racing, and you are well aware of that fact. That often means rubbin' and bangin'. If being a snob means I believe there is more to racing than the description you posted this morning, then I guess I'll plead guilty and glad of it...

Skoalbandit33 said:
I appreciate fans that like the technical aspects of a Nascar event but I think most fan don't give a toss. They want to see beating, banging, tempers, passing all over the place like a plate track provides and something that appears to be stimulating as opposed to sleep inducing.
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LewTheShoe said:
Thank you for inferring I am a snob, much appreciated. From my very first day on this board last year, I have been a vocal supporter of hard-nosed, aggressive racing, and you are well aware of that fact. That often means rubbin' and bangin'. If being a snob means I believe there is more to racing than the description you posted this morning, then I guess I'll plead guilty and glad of it...
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I would need to contact my middle school teacher but I think I implied it and you inferred it but I may have things turned around. Recently you were asking me to give you the winner of the Brickyard 400 because for some reason you felt I believed Nascar fixed races which is certainly not true. I have never stated such a thing anywhere but I do believe that Nascar does used the caution flag periodically to manage a race. This can happen multiple times in a race and then not happen again for a few weeks. Today you suggested I thought Nascar would go belly up which is poppycock as I have always been consistent in saying that Nascar will exist in one form or another.

So am I right in saying that you took offense because you thought I implied something yet you attributed things to me that are untrue but that is OK. I don't know how you square that.
 
29-4 said:
Wanting more "Beatin' and bangin" is no more 'dumbing it down' than wanting to see tackles in a football game. It's part of what NASCAR is; part of what set it apart from other forms of racing throughout it's history.
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Ya know, that's an outstanding point. I never looked at it that way. Thanks.
 
TAZ said:
NASCAR is now complaining they can't fill the stands -- this has been going on ever since NASCAR let a foreign auto company into the races and prices have gone sky high. This action chased MoPar out of the fold, and now the mega $$ the TuRD has put into their program has stunk up the events. Now there are rumors another foreign Co. is looking (Mercedes?). And again, prices have gone out of sight -- and for what ... to see one foreign auto company stink up the show? If something is not done, the old saying of "win on Sunday -- sell on Monday" will be gone. France did it to himself. I for one will not attend a NASCAR race at any venue -- I'll put up with a gazillion commercials and watch on the tube.
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Sigh
 
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LouieLouie said:
Whoa whoa, Stella is great! And it is made by the same company as Bud!
That being said, I would never pay $40 for a beer!
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I wasn't disputing it's value, only pointing out that I had no idea what it was and had to Google it to find out.

I've been known to pay $2.50 for a 12- or 16-ounce bottle of hard cider; but certainly not $40.
 
Kyle18fan said:
So what did IMS do wrong ? were the ticket prices too high, was it too hot outside or did IMS make plenty of money WITHOUT messing with filling seats
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I don't know that they did anything wrong as far as this year's weekend. Yeah, the tickets are higher than average, but there are other tracks that charge similar amounts. I think (hope?) it's that race-attending fans have learned that the quality of racing there is less entertaining than at other tracks, hosted in a venue that, no matter how historic, isn't well suited to actually watching a race in person, assuming you can navigate the traffic in town and snuffle up a parking space.

In short, there are much better racing experiences for your dollars.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I don't know that they did anything wrong as far as this year's weekend. Yeah, the tickets are higher than average, but there are other tracks that charge similar amounts. I think (hope?) it's that race-attending fans have learned that the quality of racing there is less entertaining than at other tracks, hosted in a venue that, no matter how historic, isn't well suited to actually watching a race in person, assuming you can navigate the traffic in town and snuffle up a parking space.

In short, there are much better racing experiences for your dollars.
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I would like to go to IMS just to see the place but yeah, I imagine there are better races to attend considering you can't even see the whole track
 
Kyle18fan said:
I would like to go to IMS just to see the place but yeah, I imagine there are better races to attend considering you can't even see the whole track
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IMO the best time to be at the track is in the month of May when IRL activities are in force or when no one is around and you can see the museum and drive around the track. I don't think it would be worth a specific trip but if it could be included with something else it would be well worth it.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
IMO the best time to be at the track is in the month of May when IRL activities are in force or when no one is around and you can see the museum and drive around the track. I don't think it would be worth a specific trip but if it could be included with something else it would be well worth it.
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They let you drive around the track ? in what ?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I don't know that they did anything wrong as far as this year's weekend. Yeah, the tickets are higher than average, but there are other tracks that charge similar amounts. I think (hope?) it's that race-attending fans have learned that the quality of racing there is less entertaining than at other tracks, hosted in a venue that, no matter how historic, isn't well suited to actually watching a race in person, assuming you can navigate the traffic in town and snuffle up a parking space.

In short, there are much better racing experiences for your dollars.
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A visit to the Speedway Museum will greatly enhance any visit to IMS.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
IMO the best time to be at the track is in the month of May when IRL activities are in force or when no one is around and you can see the museum and drive around the track. I don't think it would be worth a specific trip but if it could be included with something else it would be well worth it.
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Oh, definitely go for the Cup weekend! Just spend all your race-watching time at O'Reilly. On the following Monday after everyone's left, go to IMS for the museum and track tour.
 
aunty dive said:
A visit to the Speedway Museum will greatly enhance any visit to IMS.
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Agreed, but you can't hardly get in there on a race weekend.

Gawking at a century's worth of race cars can be entertaining for even non-race fans. For the technically minded, comparing the technical changes from year to year can be almost spiritual. Their special themed exhibitions change every several months, often enough for race fans who aren't going to be there every week. It's a marvelous facility, but we have to acknowledge that it definitely emphasizes the track's open-wheeled history. I was there two years ago and there were only two stock cars on display in the permanent non-rotating exhibits.
 
hidesert cowboy said:
something has to be done that was the most pathetic excuse for a race I actually couldn't stand it anymore. You had drivers throwing hale mary's with every manner of pit strategy knowing full well there was no way they were going to catch the 18 even if god was driving their cars. Passing terrible. I could only handle about half the race until I just said peace out I am going to do other things. HMS and the other teams have to be saying umm we suck and must scrap everything. I know indy doesn't put on that great of a race but frankly this one was terrible.
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I watched about half and came to the same conclusion. It was TERRIBLE. The most boring NASCAR race I've ever seen. The indy track is too big and flat
for good NASCAR racing. Pocono is the same way--too big and flat. When the cars get real spread out and it is hard to pass, you've got a bad track and a bad race.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Agreed, but you can't hardly get in there on a race weekend.

Gawking at a century's worth of race cars can be entertaining for even non-race fans. For the technically minded, comparing the technical changes from year to year can be almost spiritual. Their special themed exhibitions change every several months, often enough for race fans who aren't going to be there every week. It's a marvelous facility, but we have to acknowledge that it definitely emphasizes the track's open-wheeled history. I was there two years ago and there were only two stock cars on display in the permanent non-rotating exhibits.
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Agree. It's an open wheel racecar museum.

A friend of mine works there. There's more stuff in the basement than there is upstairs.
 
kazoo said:
I watched about half and came to the same conclusion. It was TERRIBLE. The most boring NASCAR race I've ever seen. The indy track is too big and flat
for good NASCAR racing. Pocono is the same way--too big and flat. When the cars get real spread out and it is hard to pass, you've got a bad track and a bad race.
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Welcome aboard.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I would need to contact my middle school teacher but I think I implied it and you inferred it but I may have things turned around. Recently you were asking me to give you the winner of the Brickyard 400 because for some reason you felt I believed Nascar fixed races which is certainly not true. I have never stated such a thing anywhere but I do believe that Nascar does used the caution flag periodically to manage a race. This can happen multiple times in a race and then not happen again for a few weeks. Today you suggested I thought Nascar would go belly up which is poppycock as I have always been consistent in saying that Nascar will exist in one form or another.

So am I right in saying that you took offense because you thought I implied something yet you attributed things to me that are untrue but that is OK. I don't know how you square that.
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Last week I disagreed with your often-repeated assertion that Nascar is not a sport, but rather some form of entertainment show that you compared to WWE. Your reply then was as lame as your reply now. If you want to gripe that certain aspects of race administration are not as "pure" as you want them to be, well I certainly agree with that. But WWE rather than sport... lame.

Good luck in finding enough "beating, banging, tempers, passing all over the place like a plate track" to rate a future race higher than 0.0. Meanwhile, I'll continue to consider those, plus the other aspects of a skill-based contest that I posted about earlier, such as degree of difficulty and drivers having to live on the ragged edge to run up front. I'm sure you are more in tune than I am with the more subtle facets of skill in a hockey arena...:idunno:
 
LewTheShoe said:
Last week I disagreed with your often-repeated assertion that Nascar is not a sport, but rather some form of entertainment show that you compared to WWE. Your reply then was as lame as your reply now. If you want to gripe that certain aspects of race administration are not as "pure" as you want them to be, well I certainly agree with that. But WWE rather than sport... lame.

Good luck in finding enough "beating, banging, tempers, passing all over the place like a plate track" to rate a future race higher than 0.0. Meanwhile, I'll continue to consider those, plus the other aspects of a skill-based contest that I posted about earlier, such as degree of difficulty and drivers having to live on the ragged edge to run up front. I'm sure you are more in tune than I am with the more subtle facets of skill in a hockey arena...:idunno:
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What does any of this have to do with fabricating 2 things I never said or believe? If you don't care for something implied how would you feel if someone said you believed certain things that were complete fabrications? Once I will let go but twice I won't stand for as it is OK to disagree with me on anything but it is totally uncool to lie about what any member has said or not said.

My opinion is Nascar is not a sport but it is just an opinion and nothing to get hung about. Comparing Nascar to the WWE is appropriate as both organizations have etch-a-sketch rule books and what is a foul one day is acceptable the next. The WWE manages the show 100% where Nascar manages things periodically plus both companies are bereft of leadership and suffering a loss of ratings. Those are substantial similarities from where I sit but you may see things differently.

If you prefer to believe Nascar is a pure sport with ensconced rules, professional broadcasters, an equitable method of determining a champion, a consistent method used to determine things like what constitutes a caution etc etc then that is fine in my book. I don't believe it but it is not something that aggravates me or gets my goat for goodness sake.
 
kazoo said:
I watched about half and came to the same conclusion. It was TERRIBLE. The most boring NASCAR race I've ever seen. The indy track is too big and flat
for good NASCAR racing. Pocono is the same way--too big and flat. When the cars get real spread out and it is hard to pass, you've got a bad track and a bad race.
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Cars get spread out at every track except 'Dega and Daytona. There's nothing wrong cars separating themselves amongst competition. I actually like long green flag runs because it also the have and have nots to be determined but also gives the crews an opportunity to make a difference. Plus, green flag pit stops are huge!

You can pass all the way around Pocono. It's nothing like Indy. The corners haven't been single groove for years. Back in the day it was death to go through the tunnel turn side by side. Since the late 90's you can pass on the outside of it. Pocono is similar to Michigan. They're both big, fast, wide track where horsepower and car setup are huge. The difference is the shifting and long lap time really brings strategy into the equation at Pocono. Pocono had a real bad stretch of races from about 2003-2009 or so. The gear ratio rule and COT were not a good combo for the track. But the recent races have all be solid if you go back in look. The 90's and early 2000's produced some really great races.

Michigan, Pocono and California are really nothing more than Daytona and Talladega without plates at this point imo...
 
KodiakRusty89 said:
Cars get spread out at every track except 'Dega and Daytona. There's nothing wrong cars separating themselves amongst competition. I actually like long green flag runs because it also the have and have nots to be determined but also gives the crews an opportunity to make a difference. Plus, green flag pit stops are huge!

You can pass all the way around Pocono. It's nothing like Indy. The corners haven't been single groove for years. Back in the day it was death to go through the tunnel turn side by side. Since the late 90's you can pass on the outside of it. Pocono is similar to Michigan. They're both big, fast, wide track where horsepower and car setup are huge. The difference is the shifting and long lap time really brings strategy into the equation at Pocono. Pocono had a real bad stretch of races from about 2003-2009 or so. The gear ratio rule and COT were not a good combo for the track. But the recent races have all be solid if you go back in look. The 90's and early 2000's produced some really great races.

Michigan, Pocono and California are really nothing more than Daytona and Talladega without plates at this point imo...
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In my opinion the racing at Fontana has been fantastic the last 5 years. They run from the apron to the wall these days.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
What does any of this have to do with fabricating 2 things I never said or believe? If you don't care for something implied how would you feel if someone said you believed certain things that were complete fabrications? Once I will let go but twice I won't stand for as it is OK to disagree with me on anything but it is totally uncool to lie about what any member has said or not said.

My opinion is Nascar is not a sport but it is just an opinion and nothing to get hung about. Comparing Nascar to the WWE is appropriate as both organizations have etch-a-sketch rule books and what is a foul one day is acceptable the next. The WWE manages the show 100% where Nascar manages things periodically plus both companies are bereft of leadership and suffering a loss of ratings. Those are substantial similarities from where I sit but you may see things differently.
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I did not fabricate anything or lie about anything.

1.) When I requested that you reveal the Brickyard winners, it was a rhetorical question intended to highlight the folly of your non-logic that you attempt to justify in the quoted passage above. It is completely bogus to admit that Nascar teams battle on the racetrack for P1 through P40, and yet claim Nascar is an entertainment gig similar to WWE. The two are mutually exclusive. I am sure any Nascar professional would take umbrage at your characterization of their endeavors, and rightly so.

That has nothing to do with believing Nascar is perfect in terms of "ensconced rules, professional broadcasters, an equitable method of determining a champion, a consistent method used to determine things like what constitutes a caution etc etc." Nascar has made plenty of mistakes along the way. BTW, what are the sports that never change rules, are played the same way they have always been played, and never have controversies about official decisions? Are there any?

2.) When I posted Monday about the "Death Spiral of Nascar" that was a poor choice of words. I am aware of your opinion that Nascar will survive in some greatly diminished form. I should have chosen words such as "Nascar's Downward Spiral Into Irrelevance." If that is what you mean by a fabrication or a lie, then I apologize for the wording. I do stand by the rest of it. Would you be expecting a third rate company paying paltry amounts as Nascar's next entitlement sponsor?
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I think I see where you are coming from and I believe you are looking at Nascar racing more as a connoisseur as opposed to an entertainment option. If true then I totally get where you are coming from as I consider myself an audiophile and prefer the warmer sound of a 40-50 year old 2 channel low wattage amplifier with properly placed speakers. Most people don't give a hoot about that sort of thing and are happy listening to an iPod with cheap earbuds.

It is the same thing with Nascar as the overwhelming majority of people are unwilling to sit through a snooze fest looking for real or imagined nuances. Instead they want to sit inside, turn on the tube and be entertained. I totally get that as after a long week of work and weekend chores you just want to entertained for a few hours as opposed to sitting through dullsville with an eagle eye looking for something redeeming.

When the NFL play becomes more defensive the league mandates rules to accentuate offensive play as that is what the majority of its consumers want. Can you imagine what would happen if a league spokesperson said "the problem with football is not the attendance, TV ratings, or the the game itself but how we watch." Talk about the height of arrogance! Nascar exists to please its fans not the other way around and perhaps that is why Nascar has lost half its fan base, is covered primarily on secondary and tertiary networks and fewer and fewer people tune in or go to the track.
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You freakin' nailed it. Thank you for listening! :cheers:
 
Kyle18fan said:
Probably 5 of the folks that show up at Monaco are race fans .... the rest are there because its cool to be there
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4. The guy who looks like Prince on the 8th floor balcony outside of the Lowe's hairpin passed out with the chick who looked like Madonna before the parade lap. Big time race fan, but hey, she looked like Madonna.....or at least the way she used to look.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I did not fabricate anything or lie about anything.

1.) When I requested that you reveal the Brickyard winners, it was a rhetorical question intended to highlight the folly of your non-logic that you attempt to justify in the quoted passage above. It is completely bogus to admit that Nascar teams battle on the racetrack for P1 through P40, and yet claim Nascar is an entertainment gig similar to WWE. The two are mutually exclusive. I am sure any Nascar professional would take umbrage at your characterization of their endeavors, and rightly so.

That has nothing to do with believing Nascar is perfect in terms of "ensconced rules, professional broadcasters, an equitable method of determining a champion, a consistent method used to determine things like what constitutes a caution etc etc." Nascar has made plenty of mistakes along the way. BTW, what are the sports that never change rules, are played the same way they have always been played, and never have controversies about official decisions? Are there any?

2.) When I posted Monday about the "Death Spiral of Nascar" that was a poor choice of words. I am aware of your opinion that Nascar will survive in some greatly diminished form. I should have chosen words such as "Nascar's Downward Spiral Into Irrelevance." If that is what you mean by a fabrication or a lie, then I apologize for the wording. I do stand by the rest of it. Would you be expecting a third rate company paying paltry amounts as Nascar's next entitlement sponsor?
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I have said before that while I consider the drivers and crew members to be athletes I don't see the series as a sport. I realize I am likely in the minority in that opinion and I bet you can imagine how concerned I am about that likelihood. Between the way the series is governed and races are managed plus a car that renders age, physical condition, strength and weight moot it is not a sport in my world. I may be completely wrong but if we all thought the same thing it would make for a very dull board.
 
Revman said:
4. The guy who looks like Prince on the 8th floor balcony outside of the Lowe's hairpin passed out with the chick who looked like Madonna before the parade lap. Big time race fan, but hey, she looked like Madonna.....or at least the way she used to look.
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Before or after her million dollar head to toe rebuild ?
 
I was at Indy and MIS in 2015 when they ran that high drag package. Worst races I have ever seen.
 
Zerkfitting said:
Harvick, Hamlin, and Johnson all served penalties that put them at the back of field. They all finished in the top 6. They passed a lot of cars mostly during green flag racing.
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It still isn't a bad deal for the drivers knowing that and even a later race screw up can be erased due to the sleight of hand Nascar provides.
 
With the anticipated 2017 rules (lower down force, lower side force, zero rear skew), the Brickyard 400 could be a very good race. I'm assuming Ford and Chevy achieve some semblance of parity with Toyota by then.
 
LewTheShoe said:
With the anticipated 2017 rules (lower down force, lower side force, zero rear skew), the Brickyard 400 could be a very good race. I'm assuming Ford and Chevy achieve some semblance of parity with Toyota by then.
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I hope so. I had really hoped this year's package would have made a big difference, but sadly it didn't.

I do appreciate their efforts though.
 
2 Sweet said:
I hope so. I had really hoped this year's package would have made a big difference, but sadly it didn't.

I do appreciate their efforts though.
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I think this year's rules package did make a significant (but not huge) difference, but it was obscured at the front by the Toyota speed advantage.
 
Zerkfitting said:
Harvick, Hamlin, and Johnson all served penalties that put them at the back of field. They all finished in the top 6. They passed a lot of cars mostly during green flag racing.
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I've been trying to figure out from this conversation what components make up a 'bad race' in people's minds . They say it's the ability to pass , but that's obviously not the case. A race is a fairly simple contest to determine the fastest car over a predetermined distance and we certainly got that. Some claim not to want management to interfere and bunch up the field but it would appear that maybe they would prefer that option. I thought it was a good race , there were a lot of cars on the lead lap. A few in contention for the win , some beatin and bangin too . I think Kyle may win three or four more races this year and maybe those will get the ' bad race' tag .
 
I still like this event and think it can get back to something valuable. They need to adjust the schedule for the weekend. The Xfinity series needs to move back to IRP. I know it is under contract but contracts can be ammended and broken when it is in the best interest of both parties.

Also, the cars need to be fixed. While the racing has been much better this year, there is still room for improvement. The cars need to be redesigned from the ground up. The cars no longer look cool, they are flimsy, and too aero dependent. They should really make the muscle cars in the xfinity series the cup cars. Boost the HP, shrink the rear spoiler, and move the current cup sedans to the xfinity series. The xfinity cars look cool and you can tell them apart from one another. They also have the brand name recognition behind them, mustang, camaro, camry. Maybe we can get the Dodge Challenger back or bring in some new manufacturers. With all the muscle cars out there, how is NASCAR not jumping on the opportunity? No one gets excited about a family sedan anymore. I can already see the midsize cars being a bore. The chevy malibu? Are they going to race the Ford Focus? How about the Corolla? Boy those sound exciting. Can we put 4 cylinder turbos in them?
 
LouieLouie said:
I still like this event and think it can get back to something valuable. They need to adjust the schedule for the weekend. The Xfinity series needs to move back to IRP. I know it is under contract but contracts can be ammended and broken when it is in the best interest of both parties.

Also, the cars need to be fixed. While the racing has been much better this year, there is still room for improvement. The cars need to be redesigned from the ground up. The cars no longer look cool, they are flimsy, and too aero dependent. They should really make the muscle cars in the xfinity series the cup cars. Boost the HP, shrink the rear spoiler, and move the current cup sedans to the xfinity series. The xfinity cars look cool and you can tell them apart from one another. They also have the brand name recognition behind them, mustang, camaro, camry. Maybe we can get the Dodge Challenger back or bring in some new manufacturers. With all the muscle cars out there, how is NASCAR not jumping on the opportunity? No one gets excited about a family sedan anymore. I can already see the midsize cars being a bore. The chevy malibu? Are they going to race the Ford Focus? How about the Corolla? Boy those sound exciting. Can we put 4 cylinder turbos in them?
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This.^

Mustang, Camaro, Toyota (FRS?), and the Dodge Challenger should be the Cup cars.
 
Yep second that. Pony cars are far cooler. Too bad the xfinity cars Aero package is crap now compared to cup.
 
ted@economy said:
I've been trying to figure out from this conversation what components make up a 'bad race' in people's minds . They say it's the ability to pass , but that's obviously not the case. A race is a fairly simple contest to determine the fastest car over a predetermined distance and we certainly got that. Some claim not to want management to interfere and bunch up the field but it would appear that maybe they would prefer that option. I thought it was a good race , there were a lot of cars on the lead lap. A few in contention for the win , some beatin and bangin too . I think Kyle may win three or four more races this year and maybe those will get the ' bad race' tag .
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It pains me to say this but it really doesn't matter what many of us here think is a good or bad race as we are considered irrelevant by the almighty advertisers. BTW.....lol about lots of cars on the lead lap.....if you can't hang on the lead lap at a 2.5 mile track.....well you might be in the wrong line of work!
 
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