2017 24 Hours of Le Mans

This wouldn't suck so much if Le Mans weren't the only time Corvette and Aston raced against each other. Gonna have to wait a whole year now.

That Porsche #2 comeback though...incredible.

A real test of endurance racing this was. Awesome race.
 
Well that installation of the 24hr of Le Mans had it all.
Feel bad for Jordan but his family, and Corvette for that
matter, have tasted winning and success a lot. This will be that
serving of humble pie that will keep them all grounded.
Maybe the #10 P2 Cadi can come over next year and compete
if rules permit.

Wow, no one qualified for a 3rd place P1 trophy. Don't think I have ever
seen that. Weird Podium.
 
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Such a bizarre race. I didn't watch as much as I wanted to and lost interest anyways after all the P1s fell out. What happened at the very end though? It sounds like the JC racing car had the overall and then lost the overall and it sounds like the Corvette team **** the bed while in the lead.
 
I said it before they ever dropped the flag, the Europeans compared to this side of the pond have done a much better job of screwing up the racing. They proved it.
 


It was thrilling for all the wrong reasons. That's racing .
 
I DVRed the entire race because I would not have a chance to look at it this weekend, but I'm going to delete it and pretend we didn't have a race this year. As a diehard sports car fan and Porsche supporter, I have to say this was the most disappointing display of supposed top level racing I have ever seen. It's not the fault of the teams or drivers. The LMP1 cars are simply criminally expensive, unnecessarily complex for the sake of being complex, and this year, stupidly unreliable. If the FIA and ACO want to maintain this course, we are set for another sports car Armageddon, as if having only five cars isn't bad enough.

This year's winning car spent an hour in the pits because no one could keep one of these overly complex LMP1 money burners together for 24 hours. A P2 almost won the race, and I would bet the IMSA Cadillac DPI would have definitely won.

Look, you aren't going to find a bigger sports car fan than me, so I'm not being overly negative because I'm a hater. I'm being overly negative because the LMP1 class is sucking the life out of both Lemans and the WEC. Sure, they are swoopy and fast as hell, but when you can only get five of them together for the world's best sport scar race, and then you can't keep any of them together, you also can't tell me that's a healthy sport.

The FIA and ACO came the closest to getting it right with the P2 class, except you can't have the top class being spec with no manufacturer involvement. They had 25 or 26 of them show up is year, and that's pretty healthy. I wish the TV coverage would center more on the P2s because they race the crap out of those cars. P2 is actually a damm good class, and in 180 degree contrast to LMP1, it actually makes financial sense for the privateers, who are the ones really holding the sport together.

The people who got it right were IMSA, where manufacturers are vendors making money instead of bleeding it, and privateers can both afford the cars and compete for the overall win. The ACO and FIA really need to sit down with IMSA and merge P2 with DPI for a common world formula. Then maybe we could get back to the health and excitement of the Group C/GTP era.
 
I started laughing in the opening minutes when one of the talking heads started using words like incredibility technical and complicated these cars were, like he and the rest of us should be in awe. About that time they started dropping like flies. They are ate up with it over there.
 
They interviewed Mags when J. Taylor got in the car for the final stint.
I wish I could listen to again. From what I remember he was not optimistic
that Jordan was the right guy for that duty and expressed concern for how fast he
knew the Astons were. Then when I saw the team together on the podium,
you could tell Mags was only paying attention to his child and ignoring the rest
of the team. So my admiration for Mags has dropped a few levels. I will see if
I can find any postrace interviews with Jan. Maybe he said something
supportive that will change my mind.
 
If Jordon is so slow he would not have gotten a Penske test.

I started laughing in the opening minutes when one of the talking heads started using words like incredibility technical and complicated these cars were, like he and the rest of us should be in awe. About that time they started dropping like flies. They are ate up with it over there.

The whole hybrid thing is all about the feel good globalist mentality. If you watch any of the Formula E races, they are so pleased with themselves that they are saving the planet, totally forgetting that racing has always been about burning as much fuel and rubber as possible, going fast as hell, making as much noise, and raising all the hell we are capable of. Yeah, you're saving the planet, but how much pollution do you make manufacturing and disposing of those batteries? How much fuel and carbon footprint do you leave behind you transporting them to places like China? All this hybrid is just a tiny pin prick of energy and pollution savings. It's nothing more than a fake, phony circus.

The fuel saving and energy recovery thing would have never been something teams would have come up with unless the rules mandated it. I'm betting if you put a Sauber C11 on contemporary tires it would run away from those complicated LMP1 nightmares. You don't need all this expensive, complicated, unreliable technology to go fast. Brute force still works just fine, which is really driven home by the fact that brute American force is ruling the DPI division with perfect reliability. I'll also go so far as to say if you took the BOP off the Cadillac DPI it would be at least competitive with n LMP1, and probably even beat it, just on reliability.

Don't think it's complicated? The winning Porsche spent an hour in the pits having a front axle motor replaced. Conversely, before it was banned, Nascar teams were changing an entire engine in seven minutes. I'm betting the mechanics absolutely hate these cars. Changing that motor should have been a five minute job. When you design something that's prone to breaking, you don't also design it to take an hour to fix. Of course, it may not be the engineers fault. The amount of energy recovery crap they have to build into what's a pretty small car is staggering. It's like trying to put 5 pounds of crap into a 2 pound sack. What you end up with is crap everywhere.

Do we need to waste so much money and make such crappy cars just to go fast? No, hell no. If you look back to Daytona, the 24 was decided with seven minutes or so to go, and those cars lapped the Sebring faster than the legendary GTP cars. The Cadillac has also finished every single lap of the season so far, and they have not even had a reliability related delay of any sort. The car simply runs like a freight train, on spite of being handed a BOP castration from IMSA every single race.You didn't see that kind of reliability a Le Sarthe this weekend. All I saw was LMP1 cars dropping like flies and fighting like hell to beat the supposedly second class P2 cars.

This is why people are losing interest in racing. I don't give a damm about hybrid stuff because I like cars. Technology is great, except that is, when it fails, which is exactly what we saw today. Yeah, eventually they will make it bulletproof, but how many people will lose interest before that? Do you think you can find one person impressed with the LMP1's performance this weekend?

Really, a world DPI formula is the solution. Use the current chassis rules, only let manufacturers supply cost controlled engines and body kits. The manufacturers make money and he privateers have a car they can afford to race while fighting for the overall wins, sort of like we have in Group C and GTP.

Let's be real for just a minute here. Without the privateers, we wouldn't have even had a race today. They have always been the backbone of the sport, even if the ACO and FIA re so in love with the prestige of having manufactures thump the crap out of them. This has bitten them in the ass before, and even if no one wants to see it, today is the proof it's biting them in the ass again. They will never learn how import it is to keep the privateers competitive, solvent, and filling up the grid.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. You might be getting the idea I don't love sportscar racing, but nothing is further from the truth. Check this:


 
yeah they might make hybrids bullet proof, but before they do, the next whiz bang will come along. Sooner or later they have to dummy up and simplify things a bit, then the competition factor increases. They keep courting the rare air instead of the common good.
 
yeah they might make hybrids bullet proof, but before they do, the next whiz bang will come along. Sooner or later they have to dummy up and simplify things a bit, then the competition factor increases. They keep courting the rare air instead of the common good.


>>>>WINNER<<<<
 
IMO that is why IndyCar continues to get better. The equipment they race with is fairly simple, any engine manufacturer wants to come into the series, they know what they have to build and there is a reasonable ceiling on how much they will have to spend.
 
That's also why I think DPI will get better and better. The concept with the engines and body kits is similar, only IMSA has to balance different types of engines. Personally I would like to see them all run 5 liter V8 modified production engines (because just about every manufacturer has one they could use) and make everyone run the same weight, same size air restrictor, same rev limit, no BOP and rules are the same for everyone. Either you get it together or you don't. You have to find the speed in making the chassis work and executing the race well. Really, BOP was the biggest story at Lemans this year and that's kind of boring compared to letting them go fast and working it out in battle. Racing used to be about the best car, not the one that got the best rules break. BOP would also be the big story in IMSA except the Cadillac is so good nothing they throw at it slows it down. Brute American Force at it's finest.

DPI would be the answer if only they all ran the same size engines and didn't have BOP to fight over. This way you have a diverse field of manufacturers who can get in at reasonable cost, healthy privateers, and big fields. It would also be a fair competition, which is something we have not seem since the Group C days. What was the ACO thinking when they refused to negotiate with IMSA over rules and they relegated P2 as second class to the million dollar wonder cars )all five of them) that can't run 24 hours without spending an hour in the pits? If they kept the LMP1s out, we would have had a 25 car battle for the overall win instead of Porsche whimpering across the line after beating essentially nobody.

You might think people involved in the sport would be motivated to come up with something simple, workable and affordable, but the AC and FIA seem to want to cling to their million dollar wonder cars.........all five of them, when they actually run, that is.
 
I will admit that I'm not much of a fan of the 2020 regulations. Too much cutesy **** with having to finish the race on electric power and running the first 1km out of the pits on electric power. Just really gimmicky, Formula E-type stuff.

But sports car racing, and Le Mans in particular, is supposed to act as some sort of proving ground and test bed for innovation. GTE can't deliver that like LMP1 can, being subject to BoP, and LMP2 has plenty of faults of its own. Ultimately, it's endurance racing and at Le Mans especially you have to bring it home first before you worry about pace. There's a lot more to worry about than during the 6-hour challenges the rest of the season brings. I think a lot of people bought too much into the "24-hour sprint race" meme that's been going around the past several years with the seemingly bulletproof machines we've seen. Even the brief Audi/Toyota/Porsche era saw a surprisingly high amount of reliability. But Toyota was really gunning for it all and set the bar awfully high after last year's devastation and combined with the hottest Le Mans on record in some time I think it was just ripe for failures to occur.

Now I agree we're going to need more than four full-season LMP1 machines in the future and I hope that an OEM (Peugeot...) can come on board and deliver that competition we had for the last three years. But I don't think the solution is to water down the regulations too much that it just isn't that interesting from a technical perspective anymore. And I also believe that in the next few years the prospective privateer LMP1 programs (SMP/BR Engineering, Ginetta, Perrinn...) will go a long ways towards filling that void in LMP1, because privateers at the top level is definitely something that's been lacking recently.
 
not it's not, dead wrong..it was never that way until they started screwing it up. And it continues to get worse every year and for what. Boring as hell. IMSA has it all over them and has been pressured to follow suit down the wrong road..smarter heads have prevailed.
 
I will admit that I'm not much of a fan of the 2020 regulations. Too much cutesy sh!t with having to finish the race on electric power and running the first 1km out of the pits on electric power. Just really gimmicky, Formula E-type stuff.

Unfortunately cutesy stuff is creeping in everywhere. Nascar has their stage racing and lucky dogs. There's DRS in F1 and push to block in Indycars. Both use the "mandatory option" (how is that even possible?) tires. GT racing and even DPI has the dreaded "balance of performance," which used to be called "manufactured racing." All is this is just phony gimmicks to "spice up the show."

Well, here's one for people running the show: It's not a show. it's a sport, and the people who aren't watching racing any more know the difference. How do I know people know the difference? They are staying home or doing other things, real things.

But sports car racing, and Le Mans in particular, is supposed to act as some sort of proving ground and test bed for innovation.

What's the incentive to be innovative they will just ban whatever you come up with? The most innovative thing in history being the turbine, which stood the entire racing world on it's ear. It got banned after two year, when the rules stated three year stability. Granatelli made the investment thinking he could race it for three years, and then he got hosed. Against their own rules, first USAC put crippling restrictions on it, and later even moré restrictions that made it impossible for a turbine to even make the race. Elsewhere they banned all sorts of things over the years, starting with movable aerodynamic aids (but the DRS is ok because it spices up the show), AWD, traction control, anti lock brakes, CTV transmissions, full ground effects, and is list of other stuff too long to compile. Just the ones I mentioned were real innovation, and all but the turbine engine have found their way into production vehicles.

The entire hybrid concept is a straw man anyway. It takes more energy to make a hybrid battery than can be saved over the lifetime of the car, and it disposing of one is harder on the environment than all the pollution the internal combustion engine in that car will emit over it's lifetime. essentially, it's pure bullschnitt.

The real innovation is going to come from what they learn in formula E that will eventually give us fast, reliable electric cars that will either travel hundreds of miles on a charge, or recharge in minutes. While I kind of despise Formula E because they seem so full of themselves, an so pleased with themselves for saving the planet, I can see more relevent technology coming out of there than sportscar racing.

GTE can't deliver that like LMP1 can, being subject to BoP, and LMP2 has plenty of faults of its own.

Well, they had 25 P2 cars and they raced the crap out of them, and over 24 hours they proved to, certainly more reliable, and nearly as fast and efficient as the million dollar wonder P1 cars. Seems like a hell of a lot more value to me. If P2 has a fault I am not seeing it, unless you are finding fault with it's spec engine. I agree we need a bit more diversity of equipment, but how do you balance it so no one gets an unreasonable upper hand? P2 is the proof of how good racing can be when the rules are the same for everyone.

Ultimately, it's endurance racing and at Le Mans especially you have to bring it home first before you worry about pace.

Man, that's never been more true than the last two Lemans.


I think a lot of people bought too much into the "24-hour sprint race" meme that's been going around the past several years with the seemingly bulletproof machines we've seen.

Personally I was shocked how Toyota's challenge evaporated, especially after last year. Now everyone is calling it the "Toyota Curse."

Even the brief Audi/Toyota/Porsche era saw a surprisingly high amount of reliability.

And look how boring and predictable that era was. Attrition is actually a good thing. Without iut, the same teams and drivers win over and over and over. Attrition is the real great equalizer.

But Toyota was really gunning for it all and set the bar awfully high after last year's devastation and combined with the hottest Le Mans on record in some time I think it was just ripe for failures to occur.

I hope no one falls on their sword tonight. Toyota has raced hard and with honor. Toyota's failure just shows how hard winning lemans really is.

Now I agree we're going to need more than four full-season LMP1 machines in the future and I hope that an OEM (Peugeot...) can come on board and deliver that competition we had for the last three years.

So that will give us six car, which is still embarrassing. The only way it could work with only three manufacturers would be for them to offer customer cars, but these LMP1s are so expensive and so difficult to run that the privateers would stand no chance, even with the latest stuff.

But I don't think the solution is to water down the regulations too much that it just isn't that interesting from a technical perspective anymore.

No, P2 is only interesting from a racing standpoint. OTOH, DPI offers the chance for a pretty diverse field of cars.

And I also believe that in the next few years the prospective privateer LMP1 programs (SMP/BR Engineering, Ginetta, Perrinn...) will go a long ways towards filling that void in LMP1, because privateers at the top level is definitely something that's been lacking recently.

I don't think those teams would have any better chance than Rebellion, which is a damm good team, or Bykolles who can hardly hold off the P2 cars. LMP1s are simply too expensive and too complicated for privateer outfits.
 
not it's not, dead wrong..it was never that way until they started screwing it up. And it continues to get worse every year and for what. Boring as hell. IMSA has it all over them and has been pressured to follow suit down the wrong road..smarter heads have prevailed.
Top-flight sports cars have almost always been like that. I mean, they're called prototypes for a reason. There's always been some sort of technology that pushed the envelope in a sense.
 
LeMans was about building a car that could win the race, see Rolex 24. Your idea and the Europeans who make the rules have faded away from that (some of us think) The races of years recent prove that to some of us.

this is their recent trend below

Purpose

At a time when Grand Prix motor racing was the dominant form of motorsport throughout Europe, Le Mans was designed to present a different test. Instead of focusing on the ability of a car company to build the fastest machines, the 24 Hours of Le Mans would instead concentrate on the ability of manufacturers to build sporty yet reliable cars. This encouraged innovation in producing reliable and fuel-efficient vehicles, because endurance racing requires cars that last and spend as little time in the pits as possible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_Le_Mans
 
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The entire hybrid concept is a straw man anyway. It takes more energy to make a hybrid battery than can be saved over the lifetime of the car, and it disposing of one is harder on the environment than all the pollution the internal combustion engine in that car will emit over it's lifetime. essentially, it's pure bullschnitt.

The real innovation is going to come from what they learn in formula E that will eventually give us fast, reliable electric cars that will either travel hundreds of miles on a charge, or recharge in minutes. While I kind of despise Formula E because they seem so full of themselves, an so pleased with themselves for saving the planet, I can see more relevent technology coming out of there than sportscar racing.

I'm not sure about Toyota, but Andreas Seidl has said that there's a direct transfer of technology and knowledge from their LMP1 program to their Mission E.

Well, they had 25 P2 cars and they raced the crap out of them, and over 24 hours they proved to, certainly more reliable, and nearly as fast and efficient as the million dollar wonder P1 cars. Seems like a hell of a lot more value to me. If P2 has a fault I am not seeing it, unless you are finding fault with it's spec engine. I agree we need a bit more diversity of equipment, but how do you balance it so no one gets an unreasonable upper hand? P2 is the proof of how good racing can be when the rules are the same for everyone.

LMP2 is dangerously close to becoming a spec formula, in my opinion. ORECA will monopolize that category soon enough just as Onroak/Ligier has LMP3. There are good teams, (mostly) good drivers, but it's on track to become the new LMPC.

And look how boring and predictable that era was. Attrition is actually a good thing. Without iut, the same teams and drivers win over and over and over. Attrition is the real great equalizer.

That's a large part of why I found this year's edition so fascinating. I thought the last three years were interesting too, but this was so in an entirely different manner.

So that will give us six car, which is still embarrassing. The only way it could work with only three manufacturers would be for them to offer customer cars, but these LMP1s are so expensive and so difficult to run that the privateers would stand no chance, even with the latest stuff.

That does suck. Audi and Peugeot could fill out a pretty good-sized grid. That's probably not possible with the hybrid powertrains.

I don't think those teams would have any better chance than Rebellion, which is a damm good team, or Bykolles who can hardly hold off the P2 cars. LMP1s are simply too expensive and too complicated for privateer outfits.

Rebellion will supposedly start a privateer LMP1 program again in 2019, who knows with what package though. Perrinn has sold two cars to someone already and the car is built with the capacity to have a KERS if the customer wants. Manor will reportedly run a couple of Ginettas and they're a good program. BR Engineering and Dallara collaborating on a project sounds promising and SMP are a strong customer outfit to run that. I'd have a lot more faith in those than in ByKolles. As depleted as the class is now I think good things are still on the horizon.
 
nice that the first article mentions the largest winning margin in history 1987 by a Porsche 962 a car that was cheap enough for privateers to buy.
 
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