23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

wi_racefan said:
Charter money is guaranteed. You get more for better performance, but if you finish dead last you still get paid out. Bottom line is they bring in more than enough to run, but its an arms race that they choose to spend more on.

If a single entity runs all the teams the arms race is gone.
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If a single entity (NASCAR) owns and runs all the teams, yeah the arms race is gone, but so is the sport of stock car racing... to be replaced by a traveling exhibition/ theatrical production similar to Disney On Ice or the Barnum & Bailey Circus. You may be excited at the prospect of a grid filled by Rick Ware Racing look-a-likes, but I shudder at the thought.

wi_racefan said:
Just like Marcus Smith said way back in negotiations. Something along the lines of "If you want more money don't spend $20 million a year putting a race car one the track"
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I can't believe these are serious comments from an actual fan of stock car racing. Anyone who has been around the sport awhile, such as yourself, knows that once a Real Racer learns how to make speed, it is a lesson that can never be un-learned.

I genuinely admire and respect the competitive drive of Rick Hendrick and Roger Penske and Joe Gibbs and the others. The passion to win. The unending search for excellence. The "leave no stone un-turned" commitment to find a way.... These are the attributes that make it a sport, that differentiate Nascar from a mere travelling show such as Disney On Ice or the Harlem Globetrotters. So be careful what you wish for... because what you wish for is the end of major league stock car racing as a sport.
 
This thing is heading to court Dec. 1st. With any luck
it will be televised on a youtube channel or something.
Link:
 
Carl Long apparently wants to buy a charter if one becomes available. Joe Gibbs walked the tightrope with his letter. He also wants permanent charters of course like the fellow Toyota 23XI teams want. Two open team letters, Long and BJ Mcleod were interesting to put in the mix. Nobody wanted to get rid of the charters. Penske mentioned his Indycar series had them.
 
Pretty much same info as above just formatted differently. Permanent charters folks. As Charlie & I have said before, THAT is the primary goal.

sports.yahoo.com

Complete statements from ten NASCAR team owners defending charter system

In various statements provided as part of a Friday filing, ten NASCAR Cup Series team owners spoke about the impact of the charter system and the uncertainly created by this ongoing lawsuit
sports.yahoo.com sports.yahoo.com

 
I think there is a pathway to NASCAR making the Charter system more permanent, but that time is not now. They made their new Charter Agreement language reflect what they were willing and able to do at that time, and it runs for 7 years. I think these statements make a clear statement. The owners who signed it realized they had reached the maximum agreement possible, one that significantly increased revenue. While they wanted permanent Charters, they understood the risk of not signing outweighed the benefits of moving forward with the charter system and greater revenues. There may come a time when the France family and NASCAR develop a methodology for charters to become more a permanent asset for those possessing them verses an authorized lease agreement. Economic and business conditions may change, for better or worse.

Jordan pushed for the teams to rebel and join his mega suit. He wants it all. Break up the NASCAR system, turn it into franchises, and obtain multiple millions in team wealth by sucking it away from the family and private business who built the sport from the dirt. Their summary judgement request is comical. Trying to isolate NASCAR from all other forms of racing because….they are “stock” cars? LMAO. Kessler is trying to set the table, but it’s a hell of a reach.
 
Conover said:
I think there is a pathway to NASCAR making the Charter system more permanent, but that time is not now. They made their new Charter Agreement language reflect what they were willing and able to do at that time, and it runs for 7 years. I think these statements make a clear statement. The owners who signed it realized they had reached the maximum agreement possible, one that significantly increased revenue. While they wanted permanent Charters, they understood the risk of not signing outweighed the benefits of moving forward with the charter system and greater revenues. There may come a time when the France family and NASCAR develop a methodology for charters to become more a permanent asset for those possessing them verses an authorized lease agreement. Economic and business conditions may change, for better or worse.

Jordan pushed for the teams to rebel and join his mega suit. He wants it all. Break up the NASCAR system, turn it into franchises, and obtain multiple millions in team wealth by sucking it away from the family and private business who built the sport from the dirt. Their summary judgement request is comical. Trying to isolate NASCAR from all other forms of racing because….they are “stock” cars? LMAO. Kessler is trying to set the table, but it’s a hell of a reach.
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23XI's claim, Nascar is a monopoly. Kezelowski's letter said he competed full time in Tony Stewart's SRX series and Nascar didn't prohibit him doing so. The owners spoke about keeping Nascar intact. Don't touch the charters system judge, we like it.

Apparently because one of the officials said Nascar would be happy to exist without the charter system 23XI's lawyers seized on that statement.
Here is keep your mouth shut Hambone's comment.
 
I'll start posting every hour.

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I'm surprised it has gotten this close to trial. With the late season TV viewership spiraling and the turmoil over the playoffs debate, NASCAR simply does not need this case overshadowing coming changes and a new marketing push for 2026.

There has been a significant shift in NASCAR's posture from playing hardball and maintaining that they had no interest in working with the two suing teams ever again, to now publicly pushing for a settlement. It's always been my hope that a settlement would be reached that rewards all of the teams with greater stability. There is no good reason for NASCAR's and the team owners' interests to be so at odds. The teams should not be negotiating for their very existence with every new TV deal cycle. That is why permanent charters are the entire key to the dispute. I don't see how the teams settle for less than that at this stage.
 
I figured NASCAR would be more interested in limiting the potential damage to their public persona than it was hoping to hurt FRM/23XI during all the pre-trial shenanigans. I was wrong. They wanted to be messy before they caved. I don't know that it helped them one iota but I hope they're happy with spending all the money, time, and energy they have to get to this predictable point.
 
An attorney once told me 9/10ths of legal maneuvering was the bluff. Everyone is bluffing until they cannot anymore.
 
StandOnIt said:
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NASCAR is responding to published reports that the teams are seeking a settlement. They don’t want to be seen as not willing to try and reach a settlement. HOWEVER, it is clear NASCAR does NOT trust the current mediator that was hand picked by MJ’s buddy Judge Bell. Within NASCAR’S statement they make this clear:

“NASCAR would also like to resolve this case prior to trial and believes that the parties should be able to reach a reasonable resolution with the assistance of a neutral judicial officer."

They believe the current mediator is BIASED. Perhaps there are certain forces working behind the scenes to sway this judge and his decision making…I do not know. But clearly NASCAR does not trust Bell’s selection to render fair judgement. If Bell TRULY wants this to be settled, like he’s pushed for, easy peasy…have a court appoint a neutral mediator from wherever. Perhaps have that done by the circuit judges above this court. The plantiff’s don’t want a different mediator….why? My guess is Kessler and company already set this up to tip the scales. Why else oppose using a different mediator?
 
23 tennis shoe ain't happy. They want to keep "Mr. Mishkin" a basketball V.P. for the National basketball association. Lol gosh I wonder if he would be biased?
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Conover said:
NASCAR is responding to published reports that the teams are seeking a settlement. They don’t want to be seen as not willing to try and reach a settlement. HOWEVER, it is clear NASCAR does NOT trust the current mediator that was hand picked by MJ’s buddy Judge Bell. Within NASCAR’S statement they make this clear:

“NASCAR would also like to resolve this case prior to trial and believes that the parties should be able to reach a reasonable resolution with the assistance of a neutral judicial officer."

They believe the current mediator is BIASED. Perhaps there are certain forces working behind the scenes to sway this judge and his decision making…I do not know. But clearly NASCAR does not trust Bell’s selection to render fair judgement. If Bell TRULY wants this to be settled, like he’s pushed for, easy peasy…have a court appoint a neutral mediator from wherever. Perhaps have that done by the circuit judges above this court. The plantiff’s don’t want a different mediator….why? My guess is Kessler and company already set this up to tip the scales. Why else oppose using a different mediator?
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Bell has the fix in. Nascar isn't going for it. From the post above their mediator, a Mr. Mishkin, is a Mr. stick n ball executive and an X NBA big wig.
 
StandOnIt said:
23 tennis shoe ain't happy. They want to keep "Mr. Mishkin" a basketball V.P. for the National basketball association. Lol gosh I wonder if he would be biased?
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You must have missed this part:

Accordingly, Plaintiffs respectfully maintain that the court should order the parties to engage in another session with the previously selected mediator. However, Plaintiffs remain willing and available to engage in meaningful settlement discussions anytime, anywhere, and with anyone.

As for 23XI having the "fix" in with Bell, it is no more logical they would than NASCAR would be working behind the scenes to have the court select their mediator of choice.
 
Whizzer said:
You must have missed this part:

Accordingly, Plaintiffs respectfully maintain that the court should order the parties to engage in another session with the previously selected mediator. However, Plaintiffs remain willing and available to engage in meaningful settlement discussions anytime, anywhere, and with anyone.

As for 23XI having the "fix" in with Bell, it is no more logical they would than NASCAR would be working behind the scenes to have the court select their mediator of choice.
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I didn't miss this part. The three paragraphs above are pleading with the court to keep Mr. Mishkin.
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Nascar instead wants a judicial conference.

In a new filing pertaining to the 23XI/Front Row case, NASCAR asks the court to order a judicial settlement conference and "order the parties to participate, and appoint the magistrate judge assigned to this case or another judicial officer to preside over a conference to be scheduled at the convenience of the Court." Teams would prefer to continue using a court-ordered mediator.
 
StandOnIt said:
I didn't miss this part. The three paragraphs above are pleading with the court to keep Mr. Mishkin.
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See that? You did it again. Why not highlight that 23XI is willing and available to engage in meaningful settlement discussions anytime, anywhere and with anyone.

Seems that is a critical part of displaying they want this over as much as NASCAR, who at the very moment could be using every dirty trick in the play book to secure a mediator of their choosing.
 
Trying to use participation in SRX, a spec car series that was basically a part time gig for retired drivers and Hailie Deegan, as proof that NASCAR isn’t a monopoly is laughable. You can be a monopoly while still tolerating entities that aren’t a threat to you.

NASCAR’s market is stock car auto racing. They’re not in the same market as IndyCar or F1.
 
Whizzer said:
See that? You did it again. Why not highlight that 23XI is willing and available to engage in meaningful settlement discussions anytime, anywhere and with anyone.

Seems that is a critical part of displaying they want this over as much as NASCAR, who at the very moment could be using every dirty trick in the play book to secure a mediator of their choosing.
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You read the credentials of Mr. Mishkin and can say that Nascar is doing that lol. Mr. Mishkin was court ordered appointee by judge Bell. Talk about a kangaroo court appointed mediator. Nascar on the other hand wants a judicial settlement conference. That is with a magistrate Judge, is confidential to both parties, and surely wouldn't have the bias of Mr. Mishkin long time friend/acquaintance of the plaintiffs along with the judge Bell who was overruled earlier in favor of Nascar being able to curtail paying 23XI and Front Row charter wages and benefits.
 
Naitch said:
Trying to use participation in SRX, a spec car series that was basically a part time gig for retired drivers and Hailie Deegan, as proof that NASCAR isn’t a monopoly is laughable. You can be a monopoly while still tolerating entities that aren’t a threat to you.

NASCAR’s market is stock car auto racing. They’re not in the same market as IndyCar or F1.
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Keselowski is a Nascar Cup champion, Nascar team owner and full time driver in the Nascar series. Kyle Larson is a Nascar Cup champion co-owner/driver in High Limit Racing indirectly in competition with Nascar. Larson currently a full time driver in the Nascar series. One of Nascar's biggest stars has his own racing series, raced an IndyCar at their 500. Justin Marks, owner of Trackhouse races and wins in the GT series. I'd say IF they were a monopoly and were so against another racing team going somewhere else to race, there isn't much evidence of that happening.
The Sherman Act is about prohibiting businesses to compete.
 
StandOnIt said:
High Limit Racing indirectly in competition with Nascar.
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The NFL is more of a competition to NASCAR than “High Limit Racing.”

You can worship dirt racing all you want but they’re not competing with NASCAR. Unless it’s a stock car racing series, it’s not a competitor to NASCAR. The CARS Tour is the best argument against a monopoly.
 
Naitch said:
The NFL is more of a competition to NASCAR than “High Limit Racing.”

You can worship dirt racing all you want but they’re not competing with NASCAR. Unless it’s a stock car racing series, it’s not a competitor to NASCAR. The CARS Tour is the best argument against a monopoly.
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This isn't a case of mine is bigger than yours or this is more of a problem than others. The Sherman act is about a monopoly crushing the competition and creating an unfair playing field. Yours and my examples are showing that it isn't a monopoly because these series would be easy to crush if Nascar decided it wanted to. They could run Cars type events at their tracks and easily up the prize money and put them out of business quickly, buy up their failing facilities...but they don't. I don't know of one instance of Nascar muscling another series out of business in their history.
 
StandOnIt said:
Bell has the fix in. Nascar isn't going for it. From the post above their mediator, a Mr. Mishkin, is a Mr. stick n ball executive and an X NBA big wig.
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America's Cup, PGA, and USTA are about as far from stick and ball as possible.

Why did NASCAR not complain months ago? Mishkin's history was known to them then. Now that it's actually coming to arbitration, they decide he's not suitable?
 
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