23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

donthaveanickname said:
I have tons of respect for the fact he's still competing for wins in his mid-40s. Not many drivers have been able to do that.
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I have ZERO respect for the way he slides other cars up into the wall time and time again, or how he blames everyone but himself for his own disasters, or how he positions himself as the “great sage of the sport” while participating in the tear down attempt of it’s sanctioning body. His years of “tantrums” have intimidated officials who regularly fail to hold him accountable for his belligerent antics on the track. He’s a narcissistic ego maniac, just like buddy MJ.

But I suppose his mama loves him.
 
Conover said:
I have ZERO respect for the way he slides other cars up into the wall time and time again, or how he blames everyone but himself for his own disasters, or how he positions himself as the “great sage of the sport” while participating in the tear down attempt of it’s sanctioning body. His years of “tantrums” have intimidated officials who regularly fail to hold him accountable for his belligerent antics on the track. He’s a narcissistic ego maniac, just like buddy MJ.

But I suppose his mama loves him.
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*looks at avatar, and laughs*
 
kkfan91 said:
bull****, they've built the ****** sport and the disrespect towards that which many show is ridiculous. Maybe MJ and Denny can work for a ****** living instead of bringing down someone else's work.

If you support this lawsuit you are actively killing stock car racing and there's no way around it and I will hold you as responsible at I hold them.
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I strongly doubt losing it will kill NASCAR. There's no reason for the Frances to say something like, "Here, you run it" and give up all the money it will still be capable of generating. If NASCAR loses, they'll continue to manage it in a reduced capacity, still making more money than you and I will ever see.

As to what you hold me responsible for, I support NASCAR by spending my entertainment dollars on it. That's all the Frances and their company need or should ask for.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
From: https://www.motorsport.com/nascar-c...ar-assert-claim-of-irreparable-harm/10755802/



Okay, how is the value of a charter tied to the season's results? I'm missing another piece of the puzzle.
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The revenue streams associated with a particular charter are a base amount for simply showing up each week, a historical performance-based portion tied to the charter’s points standings finish the past two years, and participation in the season-end championship bonus fund. So if you were to lease a charter for a year, one that finished 20th in the championship on average over the past two years would be more valuable than one that finished 30th.
 
FLRacingFan said:
The revenue streams associated with a particular charter are a base amount for simply showing up each week, a historical performance-based portion tied to the charter’s points standings finish the past two years, and participation in the season-end championship bonus fund. So if you were to lease a charter for a year, one that finished 20th in the championship on average over the past two years would be more valuable than one that finished 30th.
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Ah, so that explains why Legacy cares which charter RWR is (supposedly) selling them. I thought it just guaranteed a start and a fixed amount. I wonder what other benefits are in there that I'm not aware of (yet).

Thanks.
 
aunty dive said:
The case will decided by a jury, not by Judge Bell alone.

Different ball game …
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And if* appealed, the same higher court may rule with the teams this time. This is a different case with different evidence and different legal questions.

*'If' because I still think this will be settled out of court eventually.
 
Conover said:
I have ZERO respect for the way he slides other cars up into the wall time and time again, or how he blames everyone but himself for his own disasters, or how he positions himself as the “great sage of the sport” while participating in the tear down attempt of it’s sanctioning body. His years of “tantrums” have intimidated officials who regularly fail to hold him accountable for his belligerent antics on the track. He’s a narcissistic ego maniac, just like buddy MJ.

But I suppose his mama loves him.
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I can understand not caring for him personally for refusing to sign on with Nascar and for all the legal disputes.

But I have never thought of Hamlin for being the nasty or dirty driver you described. At least when considering the full body of the work of a man that raced in over 10,000 times (^ + races after his claim).

I do remember him trying to bully Logano during Logano's first season with Penske. Hamlin was a pure a**hole deluxe in that case.
But Hamlin did pay the price, imo with a resulting injury that sidelined him for several races.

He also wrecked Elliot one year at Martinville, and Elliot returned the favor in the following race or two at Phoenix.
I would consider those cases even based on the results.

I dont recall Hamlin carrying a grudge against them for years. I also do not see other drivers who are routinely angry at Hamlin about something that happened on the track. He seems to be within most of the drivers' unwritten code imo.

I dont think of Hamlin as a bump and run artist either, I think he gets most of his wins based on his technical skills to finesse his way around the demading tracks.

If I were a driver lining up during a GWC, I would prefer to do it against drivers like Hamlin. I think he is more prone to try and beat you honestly than many of the others who would just try to drive through you.

But you know what they say about opinions, and this one is it just mine, and our milage will obviously be different
 
Naitch said:
If they have to divest the tracks, I wonder who would buy.
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I doubt they'd have to divest. They'd probably have to be more open about who they lease track time to, and drop the requirement that a track hosts a NASCAR sanctioned race can't also host other stock car series.
 
Conover said:
I’d say he KNEW any alternative ruling would be smacked down by the higher court. But will give him credit for recognizing the lack of merit in the claim by the MJ cabal.
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It's not that there was no merit to the claim when it was filed. It's that NASCAR switched course and made a giant concession to hold charters for 23XI and FRM while the lawsuit proceeds. This was not in keeping with what NASCAR signaled their intent was previously. That is what satisfied the core aims of the injunction request and rendered it unnecessary.

Also, you have no basis to reach such absurd snap conclusions about the judge, whom you know nothing about. He made a ruling on an injunction that you didn't like. You'll find nobody on the other side of this discourse here slamming the judge when he makes rulings favorable to NASCAR.
 
Blaze said:
*looks at avatar, …..
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gnomesayin said:
It's not that there was no merit to the claim when it was filed. It's that NASCAR switched course and made a giant concession to hold charters for 23XI and FRM while the lawsuit proceeds. This was not in keeping with what NASCAR signaled their intent was previously. That is what satisfied the core aims of the injunction request and rendered it unnecessary.

Also, you have no basis to reach such absurd snap conclusions about the judge, whom you know nothing about. He made a ruling on an injunction that you didn't like. You'll find nobody on the other side of this discourse here slamming the judge when he makes rulings favorable to NASCAR.
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I know, I know, I’m mostly having fun talking about him being a drooling fan of MJ. But I couldn’t figure out how he could make some of the early comments he shared in court without some early bias. Also his rationale for his judgement that was overturned by all 7 judges above him was quite the exercise in legal gymnastics.

Indeed NASCAR has made commitments relative to some of the concerns by the plaintiffs, namely fearing the sale of their previous charters. It was an easy step for NASCAR, and the right one. So why didn’t the cabal withdraw their injunction? Wasn’t enough in their eyes…it’s never enough. With this ruling…keep crying…TDB.
 
Conover said:
I know, I know, I’m mostly having fun talking about him being a drooling fan of MJ. But I couldn’t figure out how he could make some of the early comments he shared in court without some early bias. Also his rationale for his judgement that was overturned by all 7 judges above him was quite the exercise in legal gymnastics.

Indeed NASCAR has made commitments relative to some of the concerns by the plaintiffs, namely fearing the sale of their previous charters. It was an easy step for NASCAR, and the right one. So why didn’t the cabal withdraw their injunction? Wasn’t enough in their eyes…it’s never enough. With this ruling…keep crying…TDB.
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Why am I quoted in this, when this has nothing to do with what I'm saying in said quote?
 
Blaze said:
Why am I quoted in this, when this has nothing to do with what I'm saying in said quote?
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Oh sorry, I meant to add that I looked at your avatar, and laughed remembering how Hamcrap took out your guy multiple times over the years. 😉

BTW, I am a fan of Chase…one of my favorites I pull for and have since he started.

But with the court ruling it’s a good day, and I’m McLovin It!
 
Conover said:
Oh sorry, I meant to add that I looked at your avatar, and laughed remembering how Hamcrap took out your guy multiple times over the years. 😉

BTW, I am a fan of Chase…one of my favorites I pull for and have since he started.

But with the court ruling it’s a good day, and I’m McLovin It!
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Your guy took him out a couple times as well. I'm just saying that it's kind of funny to see a Ross fan talking about people driving through people. But it's cool when he does it, right?
 
Pretty sure the feeling is mutual.

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I'm surprised that Judge Bell is exerting such extreme pressure on both parties to reach a pre-trial settlement. But I hope they do settle, including significant concessions by Nascar in favor of all the teams. At the hearing last week, Judge Bell seemed to offer a threat to both sides that they really can't afford the risk of going to trial...

What To Know About NASCAR Antitrust Lawsuit: Team Owners Urge Resolution | FOX Sports

Two teams — Michael Jordan's 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports — are suing NASCAR alleging a violation of antitrust laws. Here is the latest news and everything to know about the saga.
www.foxsports.com www.foxsports.com
Bell also delivered several messages during the hearing:

--That the case will not be decided at the summary judgment phase as there are clear disputes of fact. If it is not settled, they will go to trial in December.

--If either side is certain it will win at trial, that is clearly a wrong feeling.

--That anything presented at trial will be public.

--That if NASCAR loses the case, NASCAR will look much different than it did prior to 2026.
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Blaze said:
Your guy took him out a couple times as well. I'm just saying that it's kind of funny to see a Ross fan talking about people driving through people. But it's cool when he does it, right?
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I know you’re a “gotta have the last word” guy, but since you posed the question…

Ross raced super aggressive early on, got a lot of cars sideways, and got chapped too heavy for it IMO. But he has matured his approach and drives about as clean as anyone out there now. Hamcrap is a very good driver, no doubt, but continues to ride other cars up into the marbles at will. He then defends by deflecting and seeking to blame others. I don’t like the guy, and I hold a grudge against him for all the many times he’s done this crap.

When he joined this cabal lawsuit with his narcissistic pal Jordan that put him over the top on the douche scale.

So with this ruling, just finish this season, one in which I hope Hambone finds many a wall and ultimately blows another championship. Then let the trial begin, where I hope he and his pals lose it all big time. That’s just how I feel about it. Nuff said.
 
kkfan91 said:
NASCAR doesn't owe teams any concessions especially not if they settle. If anything the teams that sued should pay them for the pointless chaos they've unleashed without merit.
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If there’s a settlement, concessions will be made by both sides.

Success or failure in court will determine who pays whom, your emotional response notwithstanding.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I'm surprised that Judge Bell is exerting such extreme pressure on both parties to reach a pre-trial settlement. But I hope they do settle, including significant concessions by Nascar in favor of all the teams. At the hearing last week, Judge Bell seemed to offer a threat to both sides that they really can't afford the risk of going to trial...

What To Know About NASCAR Antitrust Lawsuit: Team Owners Urge Resolution | FOX Sports

Two teams — Michael Jordan's 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports — are suing NASCAR alleging a violation of antitrust laws. Here is the latest news and everything to know about the saga.
www.foxsports.com www.foxsports.com
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Judge Bell made a horrible ruling in the first hearing. He gave the two teams false hope to continue on the path they were taking. Out of anybody involved with this case, I would take Judge Bell's legal advice with a grain of salt. The panel of 7 are watching.
 
kkfan91 said:
NASCAR doesn't owe teams any concessions especially not if they settle. If anything the teams that sued should pay them for the pointless chaos they've unleashed without merit.
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NASCAR already moved the case be dismissed as lacking merit. The judge found otherwise. That doesn't mean the teams are right, only that there's enough smoke to make it worth looking for a fire.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
NASCAR already moved the case be dismissed as lacking merit. The judge found otherwise. That doesn't mean the teams are right, only that there's enough smoke to make it worth looking for a fire.
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The same judge that let them keep their charters, but who was overruled....and then changed his stance and declined the teams appeal to have the charters reinstated. No smoke or fire there.
 
StandOnIt said:
The same judge that let them keep their charters, but who was overruled....and then changed his stance and declined the teams appeal to have the charters reinstated. No smoke or fire there.
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Don't make the mistake of conflating pre-trial motions with the true basis of the antitrust lawsuit. So far, just two pre-trial motions have been adjudicated. (1) The teams' request to be paid like chartered entries has been denied, after Nascar made several concessions on guaranteed starting slots and holding the disputed charters in escrow during the litigation. And (2), Nascar's motion to dismiss the suit has also been denied.

Meanwhile, the actual issues in dispute have not been addressed in any significant way, but the December 1 trial date is looming. The judge's plain-English recommendation to both sides is to negotiate a settlement, because the outcome is uncertain, and the risk of losing at trial is very severe. Imagine for a moment that Jim France called you for advice. Would you tell him, "There's no smoke or fire there. Do not make any concessions to reach a pre-trial settlement."
 
LewTheShoe said:
Don't make the mistake of conflating pre-trial motions with the true basis of the antitrust lawsuit. So far, just two pre-trial motions have been adjudicated. (1) The teams' request to be paid like chartered entries has been denied, after Nascar made several concessions on guaranteed starting slots and holding the disputed charters in escrow during the litigation. And (2), Nascar's motion to dismiss the suit has also been denied.

Meanwhile, the actual issues in dispute have not been addressed in any significant way, but the December 1 trial date is looming. The judge's plain-English recommendation to both sides is to negotiate a settlement, because the outcome is uncertain, and the risk of losing at trial is very severe. Imagine for a moment that Jim France called you for advice. Would you tell him, "There's no smoke or fire there. Do not make any concessions to reach a pre-trial settlement."
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If you think that is is a no big deal functioning as non charter teams, that is your opinion. Trying to prove the Sherman act claiming unfair practices while losing twice to prove that it is unfair to have their charters removed? I disagree that this isn't part of their case. That was a ruling that favored Nascar.

It's been already said, Judge Bell gave the teams the moon and it has already been clawed back by a higher court. He didn't make that mistake the second time. The teams are getting paid at non chartered rates. They have guaranteed starting spots...like they needed them? Nascar can sell or give away other charters if they desire. They have no restrictions on that. That's a win for the teams? I don't see it.
 
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