23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

"Family owned" is not a legal distinction that has any meaning. There are wholly privately owned companies, there are publicly traded companies. The majority of "stick and ball" sports franchises are owned by families. This confers no special status or rights to the owners because they have a family.

I also find the comparisons to team sports leagues to be less than useful, and was responding to dispute a poor attempt at equating the two.
 
NASCAR is a major corporation, operating as a private, family-owned entity that owns 14 of the nation’s major motorsports entertainment facilities and sanctions over 1,200 races annually across 11 countries. As of August 2025, the company reported an annual revenue of $5 billion and employs approximately 5,000 people across North America, Europe, and South America.
 
Conover said:
So basically you want NASCAR to just grant these teams ownership and become franchises of the enterprise. OK, if that’s what they want, then NASCAR should send each team an invoice for $35M per car. Structure the rules and various approval processes like the NFL. But teams should NEVER get to just be HANDED multi million dollar assets without paying NASCAR for the privilege. “But….but…what about those teams like 23XI that paid someone for their charter?” TDB. If you want a franchise, pay NASCAR. They are the owners of the series. How you got to the point of becoming a potential franchisee is not their problem.
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Blah blah blah. NASCAR already gave the teams the charters and some already paid others for them, the teams should own them. End of story. We already also established you hate some of the parties involved, so your opinion is skewed.
 
Blaze said:
Blah blah blah. NASCAR already gave the teams the charters and some already paid others for them, the teams should own them. End of story. We already also established you hate some of the parties involved, so your opinion is skewed.
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Besides Rev who likes Denny? I can respect his talent, but I think the guy is an arrogant jackwagon.
 
wi_racefan said:
Besides Rev who likes Denny? I can respect his talent, but I think the guy is an arrogant jackwagon.
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I think that as well. But I don't let my opinion of someone sway my opinion on a matter. I love NASCAR, and always want to see it improving and moving forward, and I think teams getting to be a bigger part of the picture, and everything like that would help the sport. That's why I support the teams getting the charters permanently, because as I said, they then can try to negotiate on things with NASCAR, and have honest conversations with NASCAR when new deals come up at TV Contract time, without fear of losing the charters. They can have more say on different things to improve the car and improve the racing. We as fans should want that, no matter who one or two of the people pushing it is, because if your opinion changes because it's a Rick Hendrick, a Richard Childress, a Rodger Penske, etc then you don't hate the idea, you just don't want the person who is pushing it to get credit for helping make the sport better.
 
The problem is when owners have more input and say in things it generally comes at the cost of competition. The RTA is the main thing standing in the way of making performance changes to the current car.

IMO this sport needs to be a dictatorship. At the end of the day someone needs to have the power to make the call. What have all these committees accomplished? Heck in the spotters have a group and they can't even figure out how to keep guys from running into each other coming to pit road.
 
wi_racefan said:
The problem is when owners have more input and say in things it generally comes at the cost of competition. The RTA is the main thing standing in the way of making performance changes to the current car.

IMO this sport needs to be a dictatorship. At the end of the day someone needs to have the power to make the call. What have all these committees accomplished? Heck in the spotters have a group and they can't even figure out how to keep guys from running into each other coming to pit road.
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Well I mean the France family having all the say is how we got the Chase and the Playoffs, I say that came at the cost of competition. One of the worst things to happen to the sport tbh. So yeah maybe they should be some sort of committee so sucky stuff like that doesn't happen again. ☺️
 
Blaze said:
Well I mean the France family having all the say is how we got the Chase and the Playoffs, I say that came at the cost of competition. One of the worst things to happen to the sport tbh. So yeah maybe they should be some sort of committee so sucky stuff like that doesn't happen again. ☺️
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I can't see where it hurt the competition at all. If anything it ramped it up. Did it question the legitimacy of the champion some years? Definitely.

They had a championship committee this year and that seemed like a disaster. Never could reach a consensus.
 
wi_racefan said:
The problem is when owners have more input and say in things it generally comes at the cost of competition. The RTA is the main thing standing in the way of making performance changes to the current car.

IMO this sport needs to be a dictatorship. At the end of the day someone needs to have the power to make the call. What have all these committees accomplished? Heck in the spotters have a group and they can't even figure out how to keep guys from running into each other coming to pit road.
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Yeah I don't see how the tail wagging the dog is going to make anything better. You have a failed basketball franchise owner trying to run the show and make racing decisions along with his lawyer in hand? Nobody else of any matter decided it was a good idea to go along. The vast majority wrote letters in Nascar's favor FWIW.
 
wi_racefan said:
I can't see where it hurt the competition at all. If anything it ramped it up. Did it question the legitimacy of the champion some years? Definitely.

They had a championship committee this year and that seemed like a disaster. Never could reach a consensus.
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There has been. Like Charlie said, they are waiting til after the season to announce the change.
 
StandOnIt said:
Yeah I don't see how the tail wagging the dog is going to make anything better. You have a failed basketball franchise owner trying to run the show and make racing decisions along with his lawyer in hand? Nobody else of any matter decided it was a good idea to go along. The vast majority wrote letters in Nascar's favor FWIW.
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Failed? He paid 275 million and sold for 3 billion. The man won!
 
Blaze said:
Blah blah blah. NASCAR already gave the teams the charters and some already paid others for them, the teams should own them. End of story. We already also established you hate some of the parties involved, so your opinion is skewed.
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And you continue to act like these charters have no value to NASCAR (the OWNERS, since these are leased for a fixed period), and should just be GIVEN to the teams (your words). That is a simplistic and naive view of the business. NASCAR should NOT be expected to just hand over the value of those assets without those teams paying NASCAR compensation. And I used the “franchise” example to make two points:

1. Franchises in any stick and ball sport cost a lot of money to aquire. Why? They are limited, represent a form of ownership, share in the revenues of the league and carry rights and responsibilities. Did those teams just get their franchise handed to them? Nope. Why should Charters be owned by NASCAR teams with no compensation to the owner (NASCAR)?

2. NASCAR and racing in particular is not conducive to the franchise model. Too many variables, the tracks are not owned by the teams, and the viability of each team is a bigger concern than the billionaire owners of the NFL (as an example).

Also, do not misconstrue my despise for Hamcrap as the source of my perspective. I believe their contention of a monopoly is a ruse to gain power, money and control of the racing series. Jordan and his people are the source of it, Hamtrd and Jenkins went along after they couldn’t coerce the other teams to form a wedge in their favor. I believe this is damaging and dangerous to the sport I love.
 
StandOnIt said:
Nobody else of any matter decided it was a good idea to go along. The vast majority wrote letters in Nascar's favor FWIW.
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I wish someone would explain how those team owner statements are supportive of Nascar's position in this lawsuit. @StandOnIt, please enlighten me...

A bunch of team owners stated that their charters are crucial to the teams economic viability, with many of them adding that charters need to be permanent. Meanwhile, Jim France is an outspoken opponent of the entire concept of charters, and many times he has threatened to 'deep six' the charters completely. It is 23XI and FRM that are advocating for a stronger charter system, which the owner statements all also advocate. NASCAR and Jim France argue for unfettered power of the sanctioning body, including a weaker charter system until charters can be gotten rid of entirely.

For the life of me, I don't know why Nascar thinks those statements support their position (an opinion shared by Matt Weaver, Jordan Bianchi, and I think Bob Pockrass as well).
 
wi_racefan said:
If it was just permanent charters then why does Denny continue to say "we want our fair share"?

The reason they have to renegotiate everything tv deal is that's because that's where the vast majority of the money is coming from. Nascar and the tracks have a lot of fixed costs, if they money is good they share more. If the money isn't good they can't share more because at the end of the pay it still costs what it costs to operate tracks.

On the other hand teams spend a lot of money on things that aren't fixed costs. Wind tunnel time, fancy shops, engineering, simulation, CFD.....at the end of the day you can take that all away and still show up and race.
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Is it a fair share if NASCAR can just take a charter from you that you paid for? Or end it altogether next go around if they can’t get a good TV package?
 
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