All Electric NASCAR Series on the Horizon

Mispeedway15 said:
Tires would be absolutely fried by lap 10 haha
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I agree, but I don’t think NASCAR would let them use the full 1,340 hp. I don’t think the track surfaces could handle the power. We also don’t know how fast the cars could run on intermediate tracks with the extra power before becoming airborne and crashing into the catch fences.
But it would be a lot of fun to see them with a lot more horsepower, maybe something like 1,000 hp at Martinsville.

It might also open up a window to truly test Goodyear's capabilities. I believe they can currently make (boring) race tires that last much longer. They just limit themselves to provide us with a better racing tire with some built-in tire wear.
The demands of increased horsepower from batteries would make that less of a concern or free them up to focus more on delivering tires that are more durable. I think that is why the limitations of things like the track surface would matter more.

Maybe the life of the batteries would make it self governing. It could be that 1340 HP would be available to use but naturally limited by the length of the race.

My comments are purely speculative, all over the place and crude based on my limited knowledge. However, I believe there are still many unknowns, even for the experts or the greatest minds. The learning curve and consequences will also last far longer than we could ever anticipate.

I am not trying to be a skeptic, and it will happen. It is all just a matter of time regardless of any push back or initial rejection . Batteries or some other alternative will become more economical and practical and the common thing.

I hope loud, powerful V8s will be around for the rest of my life, and I think they will be. The shock from the noise and vibrations is something I love. But the Cowboys loved their horses in the 1800s, and I am sure they still love them, they still had to adapt to a changing world.
 
Meh. Too heavy. I thought they were going direction of hybrid design. I suspect most of OEM manufacturers will end up going that way. The Prius has made Yota a fortune.
 
Any word on what this thing weighs? Has to be heavy

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4000 lbs.

As per the technical data outlined in the article.
 
Does anyone else feel like that we as society are being forced into something? I mean, when I was a kid I chose to race RC cars...it was a choice. This just does not feel like 100% choice.
 
OldTimer said:
Does anyone else feel like that we as society are being forced into something?
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No one is forcing you to watch. Indeed, at this stage, there's nothing to watch.

When I was a kid, we were forced to do stuff, just different stuff. At least I didn't have to base my gasoline purchase on what card the wartime government issued me, or participate in useless 'Duck and Cover' drills.

The 'Good Ol' Days' weren't always good. Billy Joel, 'Keepin' the Faith'.
 
Fossil fuels will run out one day in the distant future. By then car should be flying though.
 
OldTimer said:
Even though the demand curve is heading south?
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I suppose that is tied to who you listen to.
2023 edition of the Global EV Outlook (GEVO-2023). Electric car sales in 2023 were 3.5 million higher than in 2022, a 35% year-on-year increase. This is more than six times higher than in 2018, just 5 years earlier. In 2023, there were over 250 000 new registrations per week, which is more than the annual total in 2013, ten years earlier. Electric cars accounted for around 18% of all cars sold in 2023, up from 14% in 2022 and only 2% 5 years earlier, in 2018. These trends indicate that growth remains robust as electric car markets mature. Battery electric cars accounted for 70% of the electric car stock in 2023.
 
The battery is the weak link. Any race that tests the range of the battery will become a fuel power millage race, they won't waste power on passing until the end of the race. I'm guessing, but running a race car at high speed will drain the battery pretty quick.

I think a hybrid might work better. A small gas engine powering an electrical system - imagine the sound of a Harley engine powering an electric motor.
 
There's a lot of things with EV's that people don't account for, the biggest being the weight. I was reading a few articles about how some go thru tires fast due to weight. Other concerns are that already taxed parking facilities won't be able to handle the weight when full of EV's. I haven't seen a lot of crash data with them yet but I imagine adding weight, without having a large mass in the front of the vehicle to protect the driver is going to increase the safety?
 
StandOnIt said:
I suppose that is tied to who you listen to.
2023 edition of the Global EV Outlook (GEVO-2023). Electric car sales in 2023 were 3.5 million higher than in 2022, a 35% year-on-year increase. This is more than six times higher than in 2018, just 5 years earlier. In 2023, there were over 250 000 new registrations per week, which is more than the annual total in 2013, ten years earlier. Electric cars accounted for around 18% of all cars sold in 2023, up from 14% in 2022 and only 2% 5 years earlier, in 2018. These trends indicate that growth remains robust as electric car markets mature. Battery electric cars accounted for 70% of the electric car stock in 2023.
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Please note: Global... not domestic. If the EV market was so hot in the USA why would Fisker now be bankrupt? Why would Ford be laying off half the staff at their primary EV plant?

From NPR:
"Bad headlines for electric vehicles have been piling up lately.

Sales leveled off at around 9% of the new car market, and even dipped down at the start of the year. Hertz is selling off a bunch of EVs, citing low demand for them. Ford is slashing production of the F-150 Lightning. GM cut its near-term investment in EVs and is now bringing back plug-in hybrids, which run on electricity and gasoline.

Even Tesla, the all-electric juggernaut that has shaped the rise of EVs in the U.S., warned investors that it's in between "growth waves" and has a quieter year ahead."

Without government involvement the EV market would collapse just as it did in the 1910-1920 era, and for the same reason.
It is a niche with government subsidies.
 
OldTimer said:
Please note: Global... not domestic. If the EV market was so hot in the USA why would Fisker now be bankrupt? Why would Ford be laying off half the staff at their primary EV plant?

From NPR:
"Bad headlines for electric vehicles have been piling up lately.

Sales leveled off at around 9% of the new car market, and even dipped down at the start of the year. Hertz is selling off a bunch of EVs, citing low demand for them. Ford is slashing production of the F-150 Lightning. GM cut its near-term investment in EVs and is now bringing back plug-in hybrids, which run on electricity and gasoline.

Even Tesla, the all-electric juggernaut that has shaped the rise of EVs in the U.S., warned investors that it's in between "growth waves" and has a quieter year ahead."

Without government involvement the EV market would collapse just as it did in the 1910-1920 era, and for the same reason.
It is a niche with government subsidies.
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You made the mistake of posting the name of the news organization, NPR, and once again not reading the whole article.

1720466308744.png

In fact, Toyota just forecast record profits for 2024, driven by its popular hybrids.
 
StandOnIt said:
You made the mistake of posting the name of the news organization, NPR, and once again not reading the whole article.

View attachment 79250
In fact, Toyota just forecast record profits for 2024, driven by its popular hybrids.
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No I read it. Shifting expectations is just another word for it is not all there. And, if the government shuts off the spigot, there will be a mad rush to disengage.

As far as the last line: "In fact, Toyota just forecast record profits for 2024, driven by its popular hybrids." To me, if we want to get away from traditional ICE vehicles, this would be the way to go. By the way, the NPR comment has to be taken with a grain of salt as the Toyota corporate financial statements actually have the hybrids as the least profitable of their total offerings. They are profitable, but single digit compared to the non-hybrid Lexus Suv's with double digits.
 
wi_racefan said:
There's a lot of things with EV's that people don't account for, the biggest being the weight. I was reading a few articles about how some go thru tires fast due to weight. Other concerns are that already taxed parking facilities won't be able to handle the weight when full of EV's. I haven't seen a lot of crash data with them yet but I imagine adding weight, without having a large mass in the front of the vehicle to protect the driver is going to increase the safety?
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What does that have to do with race vehicles?
 
OldTimer said:
No I read it. Shifting expectations is just another word for it is not all there. And, if the government shuts off the spigot, there will be a mad rush to disengage.

As far as the last line: "In fact, Toyota just forecast record profits for 2024, driven by its popular hybrids." To me, if we want to get away from traditional ICE vehicles, this would be the way to go. By the way, the NPR comment has to be taken with a grain of salt as the Toyota corporate financial statements actually have the hybrids as the least profitable of their total offerings. They are profitable, but single digit compared to the non-hybrid Lexus Suv's with double digits.
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Good luck with that.
 
OldTimer said:
Latest known global reserves, at current rate, are over two hundred years.
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According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration's (EIA) International Energy Outlook 2023 (IEO2023), the global supply of crude oil, other liquid hydrocarbons, and biofuels is expected to be adequate to meet the world's demand for liquid fuels through 2050.

That's only 26 years - not over 200.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Valid point. My apologies.

I recall reading somewhere that the 'parking garage weight' issue is a negligible one.
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The most popular new vehicles are pickup trucks and SUVs.

Pickup trucks weigh between 5000 and 7000 pounds.
Cross-over SUVs weigh between 3000 and 3500 pounds.
Medium sized SUVs weigh between 3500 and 6000 pounds.
Large SUVs weigh between 5400 and 6000 pounds.
EVs weigh between 3300 and 4400 pounds.

Looks like EVs aren't straining "parking garage weight" issues very much - particularly when they represent less than 20% of the vehicles on the roads.
 
Zerkfitting said:
The battery is the weak link. Any race that tests the range of the battery will become a fuel power millage race, they won't waste power on passing until the end of the race. I'm guessing, but running a race car at high speed will drain the battery pretty quick.

I think a hybrid might work better. A small gas engine powering an electrical system - imagine the sound of a Harley engine powering an electric motor.
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Hybrids could be interesting. Particularly if the electric portion is limited - I'd like to see it only capable of providing a short surge, kind-a like the "Push-To-Pass" system that IndyCar had. That would impact race strategy, and would also make the battery small.

Most small gas engines could not keep up with the power drainage of a race car. Electricity would be used much faster than it could be recharged.
 
gone said:
Hybrids could be interesting. Particularly if the electric portion is limited - I'd like to see it only capable of providing a short surge, kind-a like the "Push-To-Pass" system that IndyCar had. That would impact race strategy, and would also make the battery small.

Most small gas engines could not keep up with the power drainage of a race car. Electricity would be used much faster than it could be recharged.
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Give the teams unlimited use of the push to pass and let them tweak or develop better and more efficient hybrid systems. Shades of the first years of auto racing.
 
gone said:
Hybrids could be interesting. Particularly if the electric portion is limited - I'd like to see it only capable of providing a short surge, kind-a like the "Push-To-Pass" system that IndyCar had. That would impact race strategy, and would also make the battery small.
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Indy's new hybrid system didn't make much difference in Sunday's race, good or bad. For those who don't know, they use capacitors instead of batteries to keep the weight down. Chevy and Honda worked together to develop the system.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Indy's new hybrid system didn't make much difference in Sunday's race, good or bad. For those who don't know, they use capacitors instead of batteries to keep the weight down. Chevy and Honda worked together to develop the system.
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Cheap and easy. Stretching the term hybrid.
 
I think we get a hybrid powertrain in the near future....and it will be fine.....consistent with the market....ya know....stock cars. The new and fabulous 2025 Camry is hybrid only....so it's just a matter of time....and I am here for it.....literally......looking like I will be doing the deal on an XSE in Supersonic Red/Midnight Black roof with a black interior in the near future. Loaded. I walk the talk. Truly.
 
StandOnIt said:
Give the teams unlimited use of the push to pass and let them tweak or develop better and more efficient hybrid systems. Shades of the first years of auto racing.
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Yep. Limit the size of the battery, then whoever builds the most efficient system gets the most power surge.
 
gone said:
According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration's (EIA) International Energy Outlook 2023 (IEO2023), the global supply of crude oil, other liquid hydrocarbons, and biofuels is expected to be adequate to meet the world's demand for liquid fuels through 2050.

That's only 26 years - not over 200.
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"
OSLO, NORWAY–The United States now holds the world’s largest recoverable oil reserve base–more than Saudi Arabia or Russia–thanks to the development of unconventional resource plays.

Ranking nations by the most likely estimate for existing fields, discoveries and as-of-yet undiscovered fields (proved, probable. possible and undiscovered), the United States is at the top of the list with 264 billion barrels of recoverable oil reserves, followed by Russia with 256 billion, Saudi Arabia with 212 billion, Canada with 167 billion, Iran with 143 billion, and Brazil with 120 billion (Table 1).
Importantly, unconventional plays account for more than 50 percent of remaining U.S. oil reserves, with Texas alone holding more than 60 billion barrels of recoverable oil in shale plays.

The reserves data distinguish between reserves in existing fields and new projects, and potential reserves in recent discoveries and still undiscovered fields. The estimates include crude oil plus condensate.

Total global oil reserves are estimated at 2,092 billion barrels, or 70 times the current production rate of about 30 billion barrels of oil a year.

Other public sources of global oil reserves are based on official reporting from national authorities, with reserves reported based on a diverse and opaque set of standards. For example, some OPEC countries, such as Venezuela, report official reserves apparently including yet-undiscovered oil, while China and Brazil officially report conservative estimates and only for existing fields."

So... if my math is correct, the total accessible oil reserves are about 70 years. That does not include untapped sources in all but Venezuela. The thing is, that production of 30 billion barrels, is now down to 28 billion and projected to be down to 20 billion barrels by 2035. The ANWR that now not part of the known reserves has an estimated 1,096 additional barrels. If Trump opens that up.... some say it could be ten times that.
 
26 years, 70 years, 200 years. Regardless, it's a limited resource and we're wasting it spectacularly. According to this source, one third of US oil usage is outside of transportation. We have alternatives for some of those uses. Those applications that don't currently have replacements should get priority of use over those that do. Transportation and packaging have non-oil alternatives; better to stop using it for them as soon as possible instead of kicking the can down the road.
 
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