Alon Day And Duck Dynasty

Instead of a formal invocation, why not hold a minute of silence before the race in order to pay tribute to fallen drivers and allow everyone attending the race to pray to their God if they have one? I think that would be a happy medium that the majority of fans could agree on.
 
sdj said:
My vote, leave it alone as is.
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I agree..... I have read this thread all the way through....... the pros and cons have merit..... but...... when it comes down to the nut cutting...... The invocation has worked for decades.... everytime something has been modified to make sure someone wasn't offended..... all us Americans and the majority of the population lost a little bit of our freedom that our forefathers fought and died for... and not just our forefathers..... the young men who fought and died in both the World Wars.... Korea... Vietnam... Afganistan.... Iran... Iraq......... They all fought for our freedom of speech ..... this crap about being so politically correct that we wouldn't say s@@t if our mouth was full is a lot of what's gotten us into the mess we are in today.... Where's Harry Trumann when we need him?? He wasn't afraid....... Where's John Kennedy? Where's Ronald Reagan?? We need someone like that to stand up and say.... ''To hell with hurting someones pitiful feelings''........ We ar as a whole a Christian nation and if you don't like it...... Move to one that isn't...... or....... better yet..... just leave and start your own...... Other than that shut up and sit down George..... cause you are rocking the wrong damned boat........
 
Team Penske said:
People paid admission to watch a race.
Learn to be tolerant and not insist that everything about you.
We were taught in school that if you don't like the public prayer, say your own prayer at the same time. No one got offended. Now it is illegal to say a prayer in school or any government building for fear you may hurt some ones feelings.
So how is this great country doing so far with all prayer stopped.????
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It is not illegal to say a prayer in school or government buildings. It's illegal for an authority figure to insist everyone in the class follow along with prayers that may not represent the faiths of all students or citizens.

"Learn to be tolerant and not insist everything be about you"
The same could be said to those leading prayers.

EDIT: Prayer hasn't stopped. If people were relying on teachers to show their children how to pray, prayer was never really started in the first place. Prayer should begin in the home. If it does, then what is or isn't led at school and government is irrelevant.
 
TwoZero said:
If someone wants to literally kill over hurt feelings about their religion, IMHO that says a lot more about their "religion" than any unintentional offense NASCAR may have given by having a Christian invocation before the start of the race. ...
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I didn't mean literally. I regret not expressing myself better on this one point and any incorrect interpretations that may have resulted from my poor wording.
 
kymartin6 said:
I agree..... I have read this thread all the way through....... the pros and cons have merit..... but...... when it comes down to the nut cutting...... The invocation has worked for decades.... everytime something has been modified to make sure someone wasn't offended..... all us Americans and the majority of the population lost a little bit of our freedom that our forefathers fought and died for... and not just our forefathers..... the young men who fought and died in both the World Wars.... Korea... Vietnam... Afganistan.... Iran... Iraq......... They all fought for our freedom of speech ..... this crap about being so politically correct that we wouldn't say s@@t if our mouth was full is a lot of what's gotten us into the mess we are in today.... Where's Harry Trumann when we need him?? He wasn't afraid....... Where's John Kennedy? Where's Ronald Reagan?? We need someone like that to stand up and say.... ''To hell with hurting someones pitiful feelings''........ We ar as a whole a Christian nation and if you don't like it...... Move to one that isn't...... or....... better yet..... just leave and start your own...... Other than that shut up and sit down George..... cause you are rocking the wrong damned boat........
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I glad I served to protect your freedom to tell me to shut up and sit down. It reflects well on your faith, too.

In case it gets past you, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of your position.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I glad I served to protect your freedom to tell me to shut up and sit down. It reflects well on your faith, too.

In case it gets past you, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of your position.
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If you served in the military in any way and I offended you ..... my deepest appologies to you sir. That was not my intent at all.....
 
kymartin6 said:
If you served in the military in any way and I offended you ..... my deepest appologies to you sir. That was not my intent at all.....
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I'm not offended in the least. It's a big wide web chock full of differing opinions.

But I did want to point out the contradiction in your statements. You can't do a good job of making your point when you contradict yourself. If you're going to praise all those who fight and died for our freedoms, recognize that they fought for those freedoms for everyone, not just select majorities. We've always been a nation of boat-rockers, sometimes for causes that still look right and sometimes for causes that now look like mistakes. Everyone has the right to rock their own boat, as long as it isn't tipping anyone else's over.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'm not offended in the least. It's a big wide web chock full of differing opinions.

But I did want to point out the contradiction in your statements. You can't do a good job of making your point when you contradict yourself. If you're going to praise all those who fight and died for our freedoms, recognize that they fought for those freedoms for everyone, not just select majorities. We've always been a nation of boat-rockers, sometimes for causes that still look right and sometimes for causes that now look like mistakes. Everyone has the right to rock their own boat, as long as it isn't tipping anyone else's over.
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Point taken my friend...... ;)
 
Boogity, boogity, boogity, boys, lets go invocating.


It seems to surprise a lot of people that the "rights" that allow christians to to invocate also allow everyone else to invocate.


In June, the Kenai Assembly discussed an ordinance aimed at doing away with invocations before meetings, but not enough members voted in favor of introducing it.

Now, the discussion is more along the lines of, "We are here to accomplish Assembly business, not pray. Maybe we should do just that."

All because on Tuesday, a member of the Satanic Temple offered this rather pleasant invocation:


"....Let us stand now, unbowed and unfettered by arcane doctrines, born of fearful minds in darkened times.

Let us embrace the Luciferian impulse to eat of the tree of knowledge and dissipate our blissful and comforting delusions of old.

Let us demand that individuals be judged for their concrete actions, not their fealty to arbitrary social norms and illusory categorizations.

Let us reason our solutions with agnosticism in all things, holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true.

Let us stand firm against any and all arbitrary authority that threatens the personal sovereignty of all or one.

That which will not bend must break and that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spared its demise. It is done. Hail Satan...."

http://www.adn.com/alaska-news/kena...ly-meeting-after-complaints-over-invocations/


Google "Satanist Invocation" and you will see this happening all across the US.

If I need shoes I go to a shoe store. If I need tires I go to a tire store. If I need healthcare I go to a doctor. If I decide I need religion I know where the churches are located. And for racing I go to the track- I certainly. don't need christians, satanist or mooselimbs waving their rhetoric in my face
 
bustedknee said:
Boogity, boogity, boogity, boys, lets go invocating.


It seems to surprise a lot of people that the "rights" that allow christians to to invocate also allow everyone else to invocate.


In June, the Kenai Assembly discussed an ordinance aimed at doing away with invocations before meetings, but not enough members voted in favor of introducing it.

Now, the discussion is more along the lines of, "We are here to accomplish Assembly business, not pray. Maybe we should do just that."

All because on Tuesday, a member of the Satanic Temple offered this rather pleasant invocation:


"....Let us stand now, unbowed and unfettered by arcane doctrines, born of fearful minds in darkened times.

Let us embrace the Luciferian impulse to eat of the tree of knowledge and dissipate our blissful and comforting delusions of old.

Let us demand that individuals be judged for their concrete actions, not their fealty to arbitrary social norms and illusory categorizations.

Let us reason our solutions with agnosticism in all things, holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true.

Let us stand firm against any and all arbitrary authority that threatens the personal sovereignty of all or one.

That which will not bend must break and that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spared its demise. It is done. Hail Satan...."

http://www.adn.com/alaska-news/kena...ly-meeting-after-complaints-over-invocations/


Google "Satanist Invocation" and you will see this happening all across the US.

If I need shoes I go to a shoe store. If I need tires I go to a tire store. If I need healthcare I go to a doctor. If I decide I need religion I know where the churches are located. And for racing I go to the track- I certainly. don't need christians, satanist or mooselimbs waving their rhetoric in my face
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Very well put. Religious freedom doesn't just mean Christian freedom. I really like the moment of silence to pray for whatever you want and to whatever God you want.
 
Michfan said:
Very well put. Religious freedom doesn't just mean Christian freedom. I really like the moment of silence to pray for whatever you want and to whatever God you want.
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Seems like the sensible thing to do. We are not a theocracy so no religious beliefs and expressions in public. That would also mean no burqas, turbans, ceremonial daggers or other things of that nature in public.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Seems like the sensible thing to do. We are not a theocracy so no religious beliefs and expressions in public. That would also mean no burqas, turbans, ceremonial daggers or other things of that nature in public.
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You're over extrapolating. He didn't say no public displays of religion. He supports a moment of silence instead of prayers at NASCAR events.

We're differentiating between 1st Amendment protected personal behaviors and organized group behaviors that not all involved may have signed on for. It's a distinction apparently we're not doing a good job of making clear., or that some are choosing to ignore.
 
I'm coming back to this thread since it was given TRL's blessing. Let's not undermine one of the few remaining areas of NASCAR that has not been destroyed by political correctness. As I said, I'm not religious & not a Christian. But the vast majority of race fans probably identify as Christian. It doesn't offend me in the slightest if the race opens with a Christian prayer. When NASCAR tries to surrender to political correctness-whether it is removing confederate flags or moving to a moment of silence instead of an invocation, they lose more fans than they gain.
 
Thirty years ago I was in the middle east and allowed to observe prayers in a mosque. I respectfully sat to the side and watched the proceedings. NASCAR has an invocation and I would expect everyone in attendance to respect the proceedings regardless of one's beliefs.
 
Zerkfitting said:
Thirty years ago I was in the middle east and allowed to observe prayers in a mosque. I respectfully sat to the side and watched the proceedings. NASCAR has an invocation and I would expect everyone in attendance to respect the proceedings regardless of one's beliefs.
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You don't see the difference between observing prayers as a guest in a structure dedicated to a single form of worship where prayer is a core part of the observance, versus as a paying customer in a secular entertainment facility where prayer is incidental?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
You don't see the difference between observing prayers as a guest in a structure dedicated to a single form of worship where prayer is a core part of the observance, versus as a paying customer in a secular entertainment facility where prayer is incidental?
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Charlie, I don't understand your focus on 'paying customer.' If anything, that lends more credence to those of us who say the prayer should stay. If someone doesn't like it, they can vote with their wallet. Also, I would dispute that the prayer is 'incidental.' As I mentioned earlier, prayer in auto-racing is in recognition of the fact that it is a dangerous endeavor; from the perspective of the drivers, crews and (occasionally) even the fans. When someone is engaging in an activity where they might lose their life, it is quite reasonable to mark the occasion with a prayer.

I attended my first IndyCar race this year. I was surprised to learn that they even pray at those races. But it makes sense--the danger is even more evident in that form of racing.
 
29-4 said:
... If anything, that lends more credence to those of us who say the prayer should stay. ...
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Then I hope you don't find yourself in the minority on a permanent basis at some time.

Maybe it's my atheist leanings, but I don't get why the entire audience has to be led through a prayer collectively, as opposed to those who wish to pray doing so on an individual basis. I'm pretty sure personal pre-race prayers wouldn't include comments about presidential candidates, race sponsor products, and other topics that stray far from gratitude for the joy of being there and the safety of drivers, officials, and fans.
 
29-4 said:
I'm coming back to this thread since it was given TRL's blessing. Let's not undermine one of the few remaining areas of NASCAR that has not been destroyed by political correctness. As I said, I'm not religious & not a Christian. But the vast majority of race fans probably identify as Christian. It doesn't offend me in the slightest if the race opens with a Christian prayer. When NASCAR tries to surrender to political correctness-whether it is removing confederate flags or moving to a moment of silence instead of an invocation, they lose more fans than they gain.
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Could you please explain to me why being tolerant of religious choices and cultures is classified as "political correctness" rather than "the right way" or "the American way?" Because I don't get that.
 
When I was in the 6th Grade we had a boy in the class, a friend of mine, who was from a Jehovah Witness family. He would stand when the class said the pledge to the flag and the lords prayer. He did no say the pledge or prayer, but, he stood silently as we pledged and then prayed.

Nobody ever said a word to him about it and we moved on. We understood his right to not participate if he chose not to.

Why does so few get so butt hurt over this and make the biggest fuss about it. I do not understand why they can not just, not participate, stay quiet and move on. Nobody is forcing anyone to participate, but, for goodness sake, leave the ones that are in peace.
 
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sdj said:
... Why does so few get so butt hurt over this and make the biggest fuss about it. I do not understand why they can not just, not participate, stay quiet and move on. Nobody is forcing anyone to participate, but, for goodness sake, leave the ones that are in peace.
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For the record, I'm not hurt over this personally, and during public prayers I usually do exactly what you describe. I'm trying to grasp why public prayer outside religious settings is desirable in the first place. Most of what I'm getting back seems to boil down to "We're the majority."

I'm incapable of religious faith. Some religious practices interest me academically, the same way I'm interested in how hummingbirds hover even though I'll never achieve that either. This is one of them.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Could you please explain to me why being tolerant of religious choices and cultures is classified as "political correctness" rather than "the right way" or "the American way?" Because I don't get that.
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I consider it generally to be political correctness when the desire of the majority is supplanted by fears that an extremely small minority will be offended. We are not dealing with a government organization here; in the context of government, I probably agree with those of you favoring no prayer/moment of silence. But a business should do whatever will please the largest number of people. I'd wager 90-95% of NASCAR fans identify as christian.
 
29-4 said:
I consider it generally to be political correctness when the desire of the majority is supplanted by fears that an extremely small minority will be offended. We are not dealing with a government organization here; in the context of government, I probably agree with those of you favoring no prayer/moment of silence. But a business should do whatever will please the largest number of people. I'd wager 90-95% of NASCAR fans identify as christian.
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Now we're back to the old question of whether NASCAR should focus on retaining its current fan base or attempt to reach newer / younger markets. I don't think it's done a good job of either one, but younger generations are definitely less religious.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Could you please explain to me why being tolerant of religious choices and cultures is classified as "political correctness" rather than "the right way" or "the American way?" Because I don't get that.
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Yeah, one man's 'destroyed by political correctness' is often my 'minor modification to include as many as possible'.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
You're over extrapolating. He didn't say no public displays of religion. He supports a moment of silence instead of prayers at NASCAR events.

We're differentiating between 1st Amendment protected personal behaviors and organized group behaviors that not all involved may have signed on for. It's a distinction apparently we're not doing a good job of making clear., or that some are choosing to ignore.
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I have no issue with Michfan as he is a great guy and wasn't directing anything at him at all. I should have been clear and said I would ban burqas and turbans........well maybe not turbans but as BA Baracus might have said....."I pity the fool that wears a burqa in my presence" and the idea could be sold as a matter of public safety as opposed to any religious context. They would make a great get up for a bank robbery.
 
There seems to be some controversy regarding Cleon Skousen, the author of the 'goals' quoted.

I'm not a communist or Islamic so I can't discuss his positions regarding those ideologies. I also regard Wikipedia as a questionable source at best. Sticking to what's relevant to this discussion, it points out Skousen was opposed to the separation of church and state.

What l do know is atheists are no less likely to have strong feelings for anything than any other group, and no less likely to fight for causes. What I do know of gay and lesbian friends is that they are no more likely to be Communist than heterosexuals, and no less likely to be religious.

EDITED: I'll go on record as opposed to religious symbols on public property. That notion isn't limited to communists. Why should my tax dollars be spent supporting one religious group over another, or any religious group at all? Regarding those who would post the Ten Commandments in schools or courthouses, I often wonder how many have them posted in their own homes.
 
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Skoalbandit33 said:
I have no issue with Michfan as he is a great guy and wasn't directing anything at him at all. I should have been clear and said I would ban burqas and turbans........well maybe not turbans but as BA Baracus might have said....."I pity the fool that wears a burqa in my presence" and the idea could be sold as a matter of public safety as opposed to any religious context. They would make a great get up for a bank robbery.
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I'm not a 'slippery slope' guy, but once one starts regulating burqas, turbans, hajabs (sp?), then necklaces with crucifixes, Stars of David, or pentagrams don't have a legal leg left to stand on.

Trench coats have long served as good robbery garments. There's lots more of them than the garments you describe. We haven't gone after those yet, and banning that purely secular garment would be a lot easier. I don't think the 'public safety' argument would fly far.
 
sdj said:
When I was in the 6th Grade we had a boy in the class, a friend of mine, who was from a Jehovah Witness family. He would stand when the class said the pledge to the flag and the lords prayer. He did no say the pledge or prayer, but, he stood silently as we pledged and then prayed.

Nobody ever said a word to him about it and we moved on. We understood his right to not participate if he chose not to.

Why does so few get so butt hurt over this and make the biggest fuss about it. I do not understand why they can not just, not participate, stay quiet and move on. Nobody is forcing anyone to participate, but, for goodness sake, leave the ones that are in peace.
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The answer to your question is that people choose to get offended by all sorts of things instead of choosing not to become offended. Due to my Irish heritage I could choose to become offended by Notre Dame's nickname "Fighting Irish" as it propagates the stereotype of the drunken Irish brawler. I could write a few pages on how it hurts my self image and esteem and how hearing that name over and over again has marginalized me and made me feel like I was less of a person. However I choose not to be offended by the "Fighting Irish" as I am sure no harm is meant and they have used the name for year.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Now we're back to the old question of whether NASCAR should focus on retaining its current fan base or attempt to reach newer / younger markets. I don't think it's done a good job of either one, but younger generations are definitely less religious.
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If Nascar had younger fans an invocation could become problematic but the fact that no one has challenged its validity indicates to me that none of the cool kids follow the series.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
The answer to your question is that people choose to get offended by all sorts of things instead of choosing not to become offended. ...
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Some have gotten tired of years of choosing not to be offended, especially in cases where offense was always intended.

I'm NOT saying that's the case with prayers at races. I don't recall anyone yet posting in this discussion that they have been offended. But I'll bet Irish immigrants got pretty tired of being treated like trash by the more established populations. I know women decided they wanted more options than being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
 
LouieLouie said:
My apologies if this gets moved to the podium. I make no reference to either side of the aisle so hopefully this can just further the discussion without being moved.

This is all a result of communism getting a larger foothold in our society. The goal of communism is to destroy freedom of thought so that all people will obey the government without questioning it. Christianity teaches that God gives each man free will to choose to follow His teachings. Islam teaches that everyone must obey the rule of Sharia Law or be punished. This is why Islam as well as aetheism are bigger now than 10 years ago. Communists encourage aetheism as well because most aetheists won't fight for a cause. Most aetheists don't have strong feelings for anything so they are less likely to fight communism or join Christianity or a freedom movement.

Communism also attacks symbols within our society that people have strong feelings about, i.e. pledge of allegiance, rebel flag, prayers in public, religious symbols on public property. The goal of communism is to destroy traditions and create new traditions that have little or no meaning. This country has primarily been Christian since it was founded and the traditions that Americans celebrate revolve around freedom. Think of the holidays that are no longer recognized (Columbus Day, Washington's Birthday, Lincoln's Birthday, Flag Day, MLK Day, etc ) or have morphed, (Christmas, Halloween, Thanksgiving). There are only 2 holidays that celebrate the greatness of the country, Independance Day and Memorial Day. Most people don't understand why we celebrate these days and are just happy that they don't have to work/go to school on these days.

Communism is also the reason for the increase in gay and transgender support. It is trying to take down the family unit because it is a tradition to grow up, get married, and have 2.5 kids. (A very Christian tradition) Communism increasingly attacks gender roles as well. Women are taught to act more like men traditionally do and men are taught to act more like women.

Anyway the bottom line is that all traditions are under attack and have been for a long time now. It just so happens that most of America's traditions are Christian based and Communism can't win if the majority of people believe in free will.

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963
http://rense.com/general32/americ.htm
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I enjoyed reading your thoughts but I would substitute Socialism for Communism as socialist countries like the Scandinavian troika, The Netherlands, Germany, and to some extent Canada, are not overly religious and big brother is looked at to solve a host of issues that should be left up to individuals and companies.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I enjoyed reading your thoughts but I would substitute Socialism for Communism as socialist countries like the Scandinavian troika, The Netherlands, Germany, and to some extent Canada, are not overly religious and big brother is looked at to solve a host of issues that should be left up to individuals and companies.
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Does Socialism have an anti-religious component as Communism does?

Germany? What do they know? They don't even have oval tracks, do they? Now THAT'S Communism. :D
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'm not a 'slippery slope' guy, but once one starts regulating burqas, turbans, hajabs (sp?), then necklaces with crucifixes, Stars of David, or pentagrams don't have a legal leg left to stand on.

Trench coats have long served as good robbery garments. There's lots more of them than the garments you describe. We haven't gone after those yet, and banning that purely secular garment would be a lot easier. I don't think the 'public safety' argument would fly far.
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To the best of my knowledge France bans items worn that cover the face in most cases in public places and it makes sense to me. I would not want to be the bank teller that had to cash this person's check. No trench coat can accomplish that and a face covering ban would make the KKK cowards take off their pointy little hats.

7808396-example-picture-islam-muslim-burqa-is-with-obscured.jpg
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Some have gotten tired of years of choosing not to be offended, especially in cases where offense was always intended.

I'm NOT saying that's the case with prayers at races. I don't recall anyone yet posting in this discussion that they have been offended. But I'll bet Irish immigrants got pretty tired of being treated like trash by the more established populations. I know women decided they wanted more options than being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
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I don't recall anyone being offended either and it will be interesting to see if a block of people end up making a stink about it. I am sure Brian would cave right away and invocations would be come actions detrimental to stock car racing.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
As an atheist, I'm not usually offended by invocations. They're just there with the pre-race concert, driver intros, displays of patriotism, and the national anthem. To me, they're all just stuff that comes before the green flag.
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I get upset when race fans get legitimately offended that other people don't stand during the invocation.

Race fans and drivers are the worst when it comes to bringing politics and religion into the sport and it's becoming a problem.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I get upset when race fans get legitimately offended that other people don't stand during the invocation.

Race fans and drivers are the worst when it comes to bringing politics and religion into the sport and it's becoming a problem.
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I have to avoid nascar twitter during major political events
 
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