Are more limits coming for Cup drivers in Xfinity, Truck Series?

clarkfn2284 said:
True statement, however, it doesn't change the analogy. The reality is that more and more people watch the people they want to watch. All of the fans that tune in on Saturday for an Xfinity race or attend to see their favorite driver are going to outweigh the ones that are bitter because he or she is in the field. It works that way all the way down to our local scenes. My Son and myself have favorites all around the local tracks, but their are a couple of guys that we will go out of our way to see because the experience is better for us that way.
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I honestly do not know anyone that went to a X or truck race because a cup driver was racing that day...myself included.
 
I did once when I was a new fan because Dale E. was scheduled to race. He made 50 laps and parked the car. Apparently he was paid to come to help make that track more popular.
Later I spent $3000, in 3 weeks to watch him drive 5 laps in a Daytona 500 before crashing out. :(
 
Team Penske said:
Then you won't have a series. Count the cars currently owned by cup teams
in Xfinity alone. Junior's team don't use cup drivers but his engineering etc is from HMS.
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Team Penske said:
At one time no cup teams had cars in the lower series, now half the field are cup cars.
Who wants to throw a few million out the window trying to start a team these days?
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Uhhh, not so fast, I am bad at math, but even I know 11 is not half of 41

There are 41 cars entered for Mich, 11 of those cars are Cup owned, that leaves 30 none owned Cup cars.
 
They need to invite the Cup drivers not limit them. Ten specific races that are Cup Invitationals where the Cup guys have a separate points system and something to race for.
 
jws926 said:
Uhhh, not so fast, I am bad at math, but even I know 11 is not half of 41

There are 41 cars entered for Mich, 11 of those cars are Cup owned, that leaves 30 none owned Cup cars.
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Nit picking but its 15 cars. Jr Motorsports is a Cup shop. It just doesnt have Hendricks name above the door.
 
Spotter22 said:
Nit picking but its 15 cars. Jr Motorsports is a Cup shop. It just doesnt have Hendricks name above the door.
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I know, I did that on purpose and went by the "listed" owner.

But, yes when you include JR its 15, still not half the 40 car field , being nit picky of course:lol2::lol2:
 
DIDIT said:
You are right...back in the day they did not drive in the minor leagues for cup owners. That is a big difference from now.
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What years are we discussing? Didn't Jack Roush own the #60 when Mark Martin was cutting a swath through the field?
 
Picky? include affiliated cars, there are a few of those.
jws926 said:
I know, I did that on purpose and went by the "listed" owner.

But, yes when you include JR its 15, still not half the 40 car field , being nit picky of course:lol2::lol2:
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Some Xfinity cars are affiliated with cup teams also picking the nit out of the pick. IDK if they count as a whole cup car, honorable mention, or participation trophy status when counting though. :lol2:
 
I doubt there would be much of an Xfinity series if you take out the cars supported by Cup Teams
and some of the better drivers are sitting in those rides, thinking of Hemric in a RCR car.
I know many divers would drop down to the poor rides but I doubt it would be good racing.
 
Team Penske said:
I doubt there would be much of an Xfinity series if you take out the cars supported by Cup Teams
and some of the better drivers are sitting in those rides, thinking of Hemric in a RCR car.
I know many divers would drop down to the poor rides but I doubt it would be good racing.
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Sounds a lot like ARCA, now that you mention it.
 
Team Penske said:
I doubt there would be much of an Xfinity series if you take out the cars supported by Cup Teams
and some of the better drivers are sitting in those rides, thinking of Hemric in a RCR car.
I know many divers would drop down to the poor rides but I doubt it would be good racing.
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I think it would be fine. A lot of former owners got out because they couldnt compete with the Cup teams fielding cars with Cup drivers. Terry Bradshaw was outspoken on this and the reason he bailed. Many others followed.
 
I don't think it would be feasible to get the factory backed cup team owners out of the sport, but I do think they can run the designated cup drivers out and for the most part they won't be missed. With the exception of a very small number who have worn out their welcome, most cup drivers who are new to cup run the Xfinity for a short time after they make it to the cup level. Older drivers like KDB, Kez, Logano don't have any business in Xfinity, they have enough experience, they are only there to leach out money from the series. 5 years in cup and you are banned from Xfinity racing should be enough IMO
 
Spotter22 said:
I think it would be fine. A lot of former owners got out because they couldnt compete with the Cup teams fielding cars with Cup drivers. Terry Bradshaw was outspoken on this and the reason he bailed. Many others followed.
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But do they want to jump back in with the climate the way it is and fighting for sponsors?
Besides, Brian is still making decisions to a degree. Does seem like Nascar has slowed down on stupid moves made in seconds.
 
StandOnIt said:
5 years in cup and you are banned from Xfinity racing should be enough IMO
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I think that it should be after three years in cup you're banned with a limit of 3 races a year in each of the minor leagues..
 
It occurs to me a lot of these issues would go away if the developmental series ran more stand-alone races, particularly at tracks that don't host ever host Cup events.
  • Separation from the Cup races makes it inconvenient for Cup drivers to participate.
  • Running at other tracks would help grow the sport. Tracks could be used that are closer to fans living far from current Cup tracks. The tickets would probably be less expensive than Cup races.
Stick and ball alert. Look at baseball's development system, beyond the fact that MLB players rarely return voluntarily to the AAA farm teams. Developmental team don't play in the same towns or facilities as the big tier teams. They play in separate facilities in smaller towns for cheaper prices. People who can see the sport that way are more likely to become fans of the upper echelons and motorsports in general. Baseball's developmental leagues also start later and end earlier than the top tier. More attention might be paid to Truck and X playoffs if they aren't overshadowed by Cup stages.

In short, reconfigure the developmental series so they aren't competing directly with Cup. They're going to lose that battle every time.
 
Hopefully smaller teams will respond, it will be interesting to read what they think about the situation

But Earnhardt expressed a desire to know what mid-pack teams, those unaffiliated to a Cup organization like JD Motorsports and Jeremy Clements Racing, feel about Cup drivers in the series.

“I haven’t heard a good, solid idea of where those teams are, the teams that are vested in that series … What do they think about the Cup drivers coming in there and knowing that knocks them down a few pegs?” Earnhardt said. “What do they think about the Cup drivers coming in there and knowing that knocks them down a few pegs? What does that matter to them as far as their bottom dollar over the course of a season and does it help them that they’re or not? To hear their opinion doesn’t really change the whole argument because it’s always going to come down to what the fan thinks. I think it would help to understand if it’s hurting. If it’s not hurting them, that’s good to know. But if it does hurt them, if it does make it more challenging for them financially, then that’s also important information to know.”
https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...imiting-cup-drivers-on-smaller-xfinity-teams/
 
JRM lost championships in the xfinity series to the cup teams.
Brad K was one driver and he won his championship after going cup. That was a real shame
in my books. This is the one reason I never liked cup teams racing in the series. It
is a little better now as no cup driver can earn points.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Nobody's mentioned the option to allow teams to earn only OWNER points in one series. Penske, Gibbs, etc. might reconsider their participation if they couldn't run for an owner's title.
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Penske pulled out when he didn't have a sponsor to cover all costs for that series.
I think ( not sure) but JGR xfinity cars are the same as his cup cars so it looks like his sponsors want both series run as well.
 
There is something sick about hating on the teams that show up for races with well-prepared cars. I'm opposed to the idea of dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator. Silly me... I thought that was the point of racing... to show up with cars that are properly prepared to race.

As for Cup drivers being excluded or welcomed... I believe most people have personal preferences as fans for what they like to watch, and I'm fine with that. What is amusing, however, is when they try to dress up their preferences in the armor of larger truths about what is right or wrong, what is good for the the sport or bad, what is righteous versus unethical. This attempt "to justify" a personal preference usually winds up sounding more like hypocrisy. For example, it is bad for Kyle Busch to take candy (money, trophies, seats, fame) from the young guys in Xfinity races. But it's good for Busch to do that very thing at the Snowball Derby, and it's good for Harvick to do it in K&N races. If you truly believe the minor league drivers deserve protection from up-market poachers, you must see these two situations as direct analogies, I believe.

For the record, I'm opposed to limiting who can race where. Open competition is a tradition I'd not like to see swept aside. That includes Cuppers in Xfinity, IndyCar drivers or Cuppers in the 24 hours at Daytona, F1 drivers at Le Mans, and Donny Schatz at Williams Grove any ol' time.
 
It's pretty rare when I actually fundamentally disagree with @LewTheShoe. I understand his perspective broadly, but I think the real point of separation is how we view the purpose of the Xfinity and Trucks series. I view them primarily as, for lack of a better term, minor league. A clear and delineated step down from the very top level. I see value in them serving multiple purposes as both developmental and 'senior' circuits for drivers who attempted Cup but don't have a place in it anymore. I don't see much value in them being continually dominated by current Cup stars in their prime. Limited appearances are cool, but I consider the era in which Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, Kevin Harvick etc. were running for Xfinity and Cup championships simultaneously as the worst era for the junior series.

I don't see Kyle Busch dominating the Xfinity series and Kyle Larson running WoO races as the same at all on a competition level. Largely because the latter is so specialized that Larson is at a disadvantage to the regulars of that series when he drops in for a visit.

Having said that, it isn't on Kyle Busch to limit himself, and he's done nothing wrong. It is the sanctioning body's job to define the series, as they are now doing.
 
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gnomesayin said:
It's pretty rare when I actually fundamentally disagree with @LewTheShoe. I understand his perspective broadly, but I think the real point of separation is how we view the purpose of the Xfinity and Trucks series. I view them primarily as, for lack of a better term, minor league. A clear and delineated step down from the very top level. I see value in them serving multiple purposes as both developmental and 'senior' circuits for drivers who attempted Cup but don't have a place in it anymore. I don't see much value in them being continually dominated by current Cup stars in their prime. Limited appearances are cool, but I consider the era in which Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, Kevin Harvick etc. were running for Xfinity and Cup championships simultaneously as the worst era for the junior series.

I don't see Kyle Busch dominating the Xfinity series and Kyle Larson running WoO races as the same at all on a competition level. Largely because the latter is so specialized that Larson is at a disadvantage to the regulars of that series when he drops in for a visit.

Having said that, it isn't on Kyle Busch to limit himself, and he's done nothing wrong. It is the sanctioning body's job to define the series, as they are now doing.
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I can't find anything there I disagree with. :)
 
LewTheShoe said:
But it's good for Busch to do that very thing at the Snowball Derby, and it's good for Harvick to do it in K&N races. I
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No, it is not good for these drivers to drop down and take purse money away from the regulars in these series. $5,000 to these millionaires mean nothing, but to some of the regulars it could mean racing or not racing the next week. Bring in the cuppers and do match races and meet and greet with the fans. Sprint car racing is a totally different animal and I can't compare that to stock cars.
 
What if we mandated a certain amount of cup drivers? For instance at least 12 have to run tomorrow at Michigan. That would at least give some parity instead of a couple guys being totally dominant
 
I agree with the above comment. If you want the smaller tracks to survive, you need to race Xfinity and trucks as combo events with CUP racing alone. It is possible for some drivers to
race at two tracks the same day so adjust the starts times to prevent it.
I for one would rather go see X and Trucks than a cup race.
Support the local tracks and you will have a better fan base for cup.
 
Mispeedway15 said:
What if we mandated a certain amount of cup drivers? For instance at least 12 have to run tomorrow at Michigan. That would at least give some parity instead of a couple guys being totally dominant
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Parity on Saturday? We don't have parity on SUNDAY (thankfully).
 
LJ7201 said:
First "fix" that comes to mind is not having Cup and Xfinity/Trucks run schedules that are near 100% the same, but that'd cause more issues that it would solve
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And most (all?) of those issues would be from ISC and SMI.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Parity on Saturday? We don't have parity on SUNDAY (thankfully).
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We do though. While three guys right now are killing it, there is a decent crop that can challenge absolutely. But put a guy like Kyle Busch against Xfinity drivers who are very raw talents or guys who couldn’t cut it at the cup level in a top ride and it’s no contest
 
Mispeedway15 said:
But put a guy like Kyle Busch against Xfinity drivers who are very raw talents or guys who couldn’t cut it at the cup level in a top ride and it’s no contest
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Agreed, but I don't know of a way to force a given number of Cup drivers to participate (or force sponsors to pay for them).
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Agreed, but I don't know of a way to force a given number of Cup drivers to participate (or force sponsors to pay for them).
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I don't know why we'd still be trying to get more Cup drivers into Xfinity races. But yes, it would be difficult to imagine the mechanism that would force some but not all Cup drivers to participate. Which ones? Will there be a draft? What are the penalties if they don't want to?

Ditto the rules that would force certain Xfinity car owners to hire active Cup drivers and nobody else.
 
Had a fan council survey on this today. I like the Cup drivers in the lower Series but I also like when the regulars race one another. I think a 10 race Cup driver Invitational is a better way to go instead of limits. Gives the Xfinity regulars 23 races to themselves and 10 opportunities to beat a Cup driver. It'd also give the Cup drivers something to race for in the series if the kept points for the Cup guys and the guy with the most points throughout the 10 races wins a trophy and some more cash. Like a Dash for Cash only with Cup guys.
 
Simple Fan said:
Had a fan council survey on this today. I like the Cup drivers in the lower Series but I also like when the regulars race one another. I think a 10 race Cup driver Invitational is a better way to go instead of limits. Gives the Xfinity regulars 23 races to themselves and 10 opportunities to beat a Cup driver. It'd also give the Cup drivers something to race for in the series if the kept points for the Cup guys and the guy with the most points throughout the 10 races wins a trophy and some more cash. Like a Dash for Cash only with Cup guys.
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Good concept.
 
Mixed feelings. There's only one driver who runs tons of Xfinity and Truck Series races. At the same time, that driver usually wins all of them. But I also think the limits are why more guys don't run more.

Schedule changes would fix it altogether. With Cup drivers not being able to earn points, they're not going to fly from Pocono to Memphis for example. There's no incentive for them to go out of their way, even risk Cup success, to run Xfinity.
 
The problem isn’t cup drivers, it’s the cars they have. They’re basically dominating people with inferior cars, it’s like when a world of outlaws guy runs an off race at a local track. Guy absolutely eats it up
 
I think it's fine the way it is this year. I wouldn't mind if they were banned for good altogether though.
 
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