Blame Carl Edwards for this crazy Silly Season

IDK what is going on as the article doesn't mention Joe Gibbs pushing out Carl Edwards or stabbing Matt Kenseth in the back. Journalists today.......:mad:
 
"... With Edwards, Joe Gibbs Racing had potentially six drivers who could race Cup in 2017 -- Edwards, Matt Kenseth, Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin, Erik Jones and Daniel Suarez. ... Gibbs can't find significant, stable sponsorship for Kenseth, ... "

Sounds more like JGR's 'fault', if it's anyone's.

So far, the 2018 shakedown appears less silly than many previous seasons. The #88 is going to one of two drivers in the Hendrick pipeline. What known vacancies are there beyond the #77?
 
Matt Kenseth has always been a hard driver to sponsor his whole career. Even when he had a good sponsor RFR had to try harder to fund some races and this when sponsors were easier to get. He didn't walk out on RFR, he had no sponsors and so he got the ride at JGR for a car that was sponsored. He lost those sponsors.
I think his career is over and your not going to see Edwards come back at 1/2 price either.
I do think if he wants to come back, the #77 is the best ride out there for him. A winning team and he only would have one other driver to cope with.
 
Team Penske said:
Matt Kenseth has always been a hard driver to sponsor his whole career. Even when he had a good sponsor RFR had to try harder to fund some races and this when sponsors were easier to get. He didn't walk out on RFR, he had no sponsors and so he got the ride at JGR for a car that was sponsored. He lost those sponsors.
I think his career is over and your not going to see Edwards come back at 1/2 price either.
I do think if he wants to come back, the #77 is the best ride out there for him. A winning team and he only would have one other driver to cope with.
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I'm not sure how much of this was Matt's fault though. Roush has struggled to keep sponsors on all his cars for more than a decade now, and the two major sponsors he lost at JGR had more to do with the companies themselves than they had to do with Matt. Home Depot and Dollar General had new CEO's take over who had zero interest in motorsports sponsorships and decided their advertising dollars would be better spent somewhere other than NASCAR.
 
Your partly right however I believe those companies may not have left if they had some options. Kenseth had sponsor problems even when Jack had 5 teams.
 
Team Penske said:
Your partly right however I believe those companies may not have left if they had some options. Kenseth had sponsor problems even when Jack had 5 teams.
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If HD and DG had simply left Matt to go sponsor another driver then I'd say yeah, it was because of Matt, but both left the sport entirely. If they had wanted to stay in the sport with another driver they could have very easily done so, considering how sponsorship hungry most teams are these days. NASCAR was just no longer in the plans of either company.
 
Carl Edwards was a driver/showman, doesn't matter where or when, stick a mic on him and he would entertain, or if he won a race, we were all waiting on the back flip. I can only imagine what he was like during sponsor duties but sponsors loved him. He left a big hole when he quit. I personally don't think that Carl when he left thought what Pockress is saying would happen. I doubt he had any idea what was going to happen to Kenseth.. To me Arris wanted Suarez to have a cup ride ASAP anyway so that ride was pretty much paid for, but the performance purses are suffering. There is no way Suarez can generate sponsor interest like Carl could. I think Carl knew that was going to happen. I'm not sure I believe all of the article. But we all know **** rolls downhill and Barney got left holding a bag of it it looks like for now.
 
ToyYoda said:
If HD and DG had simply left Matt to go sponsor another driver then I'd say yeah, it was because of Matt, but both left the sport entirely. If they had wanted to stay in the sport with another driver they could have very easily done so, considering how sponsorship hungry most teams are these days. NASCAR was just no longer in the plans of either company.
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I don't think these companies cared who was available, the price tag is still to high and the teams are to blame. The shop costs are way out there and some driver salaries are ridiculous.
The CEO's of these companies are not idiots sitting at a table with no information. They also have to have the approval of the board of directors. If their accountants etc. come back and say we are not getting our money's worth and we need more money for ( fill in the project) then Nascar is gone. How many board of directors are getting the salary that Kenseth, Edwards, Junior and Harvick get?
 
Team Penske said:
I don't think these companies cared who was available, the price tag is still to high and the teams are to blame. The shop costs are way out there and some driver salaries are ridiculous.
The CEO's of these companies are not idiots sitting at a table with no information. They also have to have the approval of the board of directors. If their accountants etc. come back and say we are not getting our money's worth and we need more money for ( fill in the project) then Nascar is gone. How many board of directors are getting the salary that Kenseth, Edwards, Junior and Harvick get?
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Oh I'm sure the CEO's get all the info they can and weigh all their options before making a final decision. Obviously for the new CEO's at HD and DG, they felt like they weren't getting their money's worth with the NASCAR sponsorships.
 
Team Penske said:
Your partly right however I believe those companies may not have left if they had some options. Kenseth had sponsor problems even when Jack had 5 teams.
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Kenseth was a known commodity when JGR and Home Depot (sponsor at the time) signed him, they knew what they were getting. I dont have insider information but the talk at the time was that Home Depot and JGR preferred Kenseth over Logano. And Kenseth rewarded them by almost winning the championship, and with at least 7 cup wins in the pairs first season together. As an aside it also proved to be a positive for Lagano who has since matured into one of the top drivers.
RFR was already sinking by then too.

The current economics is just tougher now, with a product that has out-priced itself. Nascar will survive they are essentially a monopoly, it is just going to be rough adjustments and lost careers for many.
Kenseth falls into that group, 45 years old and not as much shelf remaining to a team with an overstocked bench.

But it isn't a statement or reflection about Kenseth or the way he performed througout his career. It is just bad timing, at least imo.
 
Greg said:
But it isn't a statement or reflection about Kenseth for the way he performed througout his career. It is just timing, at least imo.
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performance in the car is one thing, representing the company and drawing a crowd is another.
I believe those sponsors made decisions before Kenseth got in the car. He may have helped keep the sponsors for the duration of the contract.
 
Whole lot more for a sponsor to consider than who is driving the car. Comparing any driver to what Carl could draw for sponsorship? On that level Carl would win the championship and that hit Joe right in the pocketbook. But I thought that Roush was having a hard time getting sponsorship for Carl also in addition to Matt, so it could be geographical area, the auto brand, or what the team perks can offer, or a company wanting to sponsor one race for their company employees to attend, or a country wide corp that wants their name out there.
 
Honestly I was trying to say something like this right away but no one could get over the rose tinted "Carls a good guy" stuff to hear it...

I like Carl, I was a big fan but it was obvious he roughed a lot of waters up when he left. You have to remember he and his sponsors agreed to a 3 year deal, he did two thirds of it and then called everyone to say he wants to quit. You can word it anyway you want but the dude didint follow the original agreement. Arris came over because they knew Carl was going to be the guy for them. That's what was said originally, that Carl was the main driving point for them to make the cup commitment.

I'm sure coach Gibbs did work the phones a lot when Carl wanted out, but when he told everyone in a interview that things were "worked out by all parties for this to happen", you have to think there's a lot of people still involved that aren't thrilled.

Dave Rodgers leaving. Maybe that would have happened anyway, maybe not. It definitely is a coincidence isn't it? They shook up the crew chiefs and Carl was a big reason for that that last time. Dave was moved over to the 19 only to watch Carl almost get it done but then quit... how'd you feel? All those cars prepared for Carl to compete for a title, now you have a rookie coming in and you have to hope he'll finish top 15 in points? Talk about a demotion for Dave...
 
JohnHill said:
Honestly I was trying to say something like this right away but no one could get over the rose tinted "Carls a good guy" stuff to hear it...

I like Carl, I was a big fan but it was obvious he roughed a lot of waters up when he left. You have to remember he and his sponsors agreed to a 3 year deal, he did two thirds of it and then called everyone to say he wants to quit. You can word it anyway you want but the dude didint follow the original agreement. Arris came over because they knew Carl was going to be the guy for them. That's what was said originally, that Carl was the main driving point for them to make the cup commitment.

I'm sure coach Gibbs did work the phones a lot when Carl wanted out, but when he told everyone in a interview that things were "worked out by all parties for this to happen", you have to think there's a lot of people still involved that aren't thrilled.

Dave Rodgers leaving. Maybe that would have happened anyway, maybe not. It definitely is a coincidence isn't it? They shook up the crew chiefs and Carl was a big reason for that that last time. Dave was moved over to the 19 only to watch Carl almost get it done but then quit... how'd you feel? All those cars prepared for Carl to compete for a title, now you have a rookie coming in and you have to hope he'll finish top 15 in points? Talk about a demotion for Dave...
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all you gotta do is go here to see that almost every race in Suarez's career has been sponsored by Mexico based Arris. Arris did not "come over" Carlos Slim is one of the richest men in the world and Suarez is his guy
http://racing-reference.info/driver/Daniel_Suarez
 
StandOnIt said:
all you gotta do is go here to see that almost every race in Suarez's career has been sponsored by Mexico based Arris. Arris did not "come over"
http://racing-reference.info/driver/Daniel_Suarez
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That's good and all but making the step up to the NASCAR ranks requires a lot of things. Carl moving over to JGR gave Arris promise to their their brand competing at the top. Having Suarez move along made perfect sense for them, but they weren't going to jump on a cup car with just his name being all that's offering to them. Hell arris is the party who was talking about how Carl Edwards coming to JGR is a no brainer for them to take their name to the cup level.

But it's ok guys, what I'm saying has to be incorrect. Carl is a great guy! It was the perfect moment for Carl to step aside the car even though he was filming videos in his 2017 fire suits for sponsors who were uploading them to social media just days and hours before he "retired"... they were all smiles when they had to delete all that and erase it all and then watch the press conference with Carl leaving. Nothing out of the ordinary here.

Dave just also decided he didint like NASCAR after a handful of races in 2017. That's all. Go Daniel!
 
Team Penske said:
performance in the car is one thing, representing the company and drawing a crowd is another.
I believe those sponsors made decisions before Kenseth got in the car. He may have helped keep the sponsors for the duration of the contract.
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I have to believe Kenseth was an upgrade to Lagano. A better driving resume, and a more credible HD kind of guy. No disrespect to Lagano but Kenseth looks and handles himself more like the guy sorting and picking out a good piece of plywood.
He also seemed to keep Dewalt a similar demographic happy for several years.
 
JohnHill said:
Honestly I was trying to say something like this right away but no one could get over the rose tinted "Carls a good guy" stuff to hear it...

I like Carl, I was a big fan but it was obvious he roughed a lot of waters up when he left. You have to remember he and his sponsors agreed to a 3 year deal, he did two thirds of it and then called everyone to say he wants to quit. You can word it anyway you want but the dude didint follow the original agreement. Arris came over because they knew Carl was going to be the guy for them. That's what was said originally, that Carl was the main driving point for them to make the cup commitment.

I'm sure coach Gibbs did work the phones a lot when Carl wanted out, but when he told everyone in a interview that things were "worked out by all parties for this to happen", you have to think there's a lot of people still involved that aren't thrilled.

Dave Rodgers leaving. Maybe that would have happened anyway, maybe not. It definitely is a coincidence isn't it? They shook up the crew chiefs and Carl was a big reason for that that last time. Dave was moved over to the 19 only to watch Carl almost get it done but then quit... how'd you feel? All those cars prepared for Carl to compete for a title, now you have a rookie coming in and you have to hope he'll finish top 15 in points? Talk about a demotion for Dave...
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The writer just wanted a catchy headline, hence a Carl Edwards headline. The chicken or the egg discussions on JGRs evolution has an infinity of discussion points.

If Edwards wasn't happy, I am glad he got out.
 
JohnHill said:
Honestly I was trying to say something like this right away but no one could get over the rose tinted "Carls a good guy" stuff to hear it...

I like Carl, I was a big fan but it was obvious he roughed a lot of waters up when he left. You have to remember he and his sponsors agreed to a 3 year deal, he did two thirds of it and then called everyone to say he wants to quit. You can word it anyway you want but the dude didint follow the original agreement. Arris came over because they knew Carl was going to be the guy for them. That's what was said originally, that Carl was the main driving point for them to make the cup commitment.

I'm sure coach Gibbs did work the phones a lot when Carl wanted out, but when he told everyone in a interview that things were "worked out by all parties for this to happen", you have to think there's a lot of people still involved that aren't thrilled.

Dave Rodgers leaving. Maybe that would have happened anyway, maybe not. It definitely is a coincidence isn't it? They shook up the crew chiefs and Carl was a big reason for that that last time. Dave was moved over to the 19 only to watch Carl almost get it done but then quit... how'd you feel? All those cars prepared for Carl to compete for a title, now you have a rookie coming in and you have to hope he'll finish top 15 in points? Talk about a demotion for Dave...
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One thing folks don't mention is that Carl did say that he would honor his commitment if his release was not possible and that seems to have been completely forgotten. Obviously this year would have been Carl's last if he had to fulfill is contract and all parties would have had to do the exact same things they did a year earlier.

Regarding quitters people quit on marriages, quit on paying another what they promised and quit looking after their kids so Carl asking out of a contract is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
 
JohnHill said:
That's good and all but making the step up to the NASCAR ranks requires a lot of things. Carl moving over to JGR gave Arris promise to their their brand competing at the top. Having Suarez move along made perfect sense for them, but they weren't going to jump on a cup car with just his name being all that's offering to them. Hell arris is the party who was talking about how Carl Edwards coming to JGR is a no brainer for them to take their name to the cup level.

But it's ok guys, what I'm saying has to be incorrect. Carl is a great guy! It was the perfect moment for Carl to step aside the car even though he was filming videos in his 2017 fire suits for sponsors who were uploading them to social media just days and hours before he "retired"... they were all smiles when they had to delete all that and erase it all and then watch the press conference with Carl leaving. Nothing out of the ordinary here.

Dave just also decided he didint like NASCAR after a handful of races in 2017. That's all. Go Daniel!
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Oh brother..read this man (2014)


Its emphasis in NASCAR circles, Domit said, is to put talented drivers like Suarez, newly named to JGR's Nationwide driver corps, at the top levels of NASCAR racing.


Meet the man who bridges JGR and Mexico's top drivers

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-me...scar-mexico-joe-gibbs-racing-development.html
 
StandOnIt said:
Oh brother..read this man (2014)


Its emphasis in NASCAR circles, Domit said, is to put talented drivers like Suarez, newly named to JGR's Nationwide driver corps, at the top levels of NASCAR racing.


Meet the man who bridges JGR and Mexico's top drivers

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-me...scar-mexico-joe-gibbs-racing-development.html
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Doesn't really prove anything. No where does it tell me they planned to take Daniel to the cup series. carl is the reason arris is even on a cup car.

We will see the answer to this anyway, arris and all those other logos on the 19 right now will let you know what they really think with their money... we will just have to watch as it's time for all those companies to go to the contract re signing talks for the 19... we will see who they really wanted in the car
 
JohnHill said:
Doesn't really prove anything. No where does it tell me they planned to take Daniel to the cup series. carl is the reason arris is even on a cup car.

We will see the answer to this anyway, arris and all those other logos on the 19 right now will let you know what they really think with their money... we will just have to watch as it's time for all those companies to go to the contract re signing talks for the 19... we will see who they really wanted in the car
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like they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink.;)
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
One thing folks don't mention is that Carl did say that he would honor his commitment if his release was not possible and that seems to have been completely forgotten. Obviously this year would have been Carl's last if he had to fulfill is contract and all parties would have had to do the exact same things they did a year earlier.

Regarding quitters people quit on marriages, quit on paying another what they promised and quit looking after their kids so Carl asking out of a contract is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
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Yeah, and I would have taken him up on it, honestly. Things would have been a bit different in terms of the JGR timeline. Think that Coach guy might have been more concerned about the person than the driver....but let's keep that between us....a few around here that aren't into Coach. Shhhhhhh. All in all, however, JGR is going through what they would have always gone through--just a year or so earlier. I think that the FRR investment, however, is taking a bit of a hit here. This is frustrating.

About quitting....You are right. We really don't know what the hell Carl is doing, and honestly, it's his business. It is pretty irritating, however, that we just assume that he is taking the kids to school, and cleaning the house while his wife is at work. We have never known what makes Carl tick, and we don't have a right to, but man, we love a fairly tale, don't we? Happily ever after....
 
StandOnIt said:
like they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink.;)
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I do believe that I felt so strongly about this that I referred to Carl as a "placeholder," and took a rash of **** for it.
 
Revman said:
I do believe that I felt so strongly about this that I referred to Carl as a "placeholder," and took a rash of sh!t for it.
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I have no idea what you are alluding too, I usually check out on the first "we" or "my". sorry bout that :D
 
Edwards was an above average spokesman, he was a natural in commercials. I suspect sponsors prefer acting skills plus driving skills. For me, driving skills is more important than communication skills. But NASCAR has become a televised sport and drivers have to give a lot of interviews - that has become a driver skill now.
 
Zerkfitting said:
Edwards was an above average spokesman, he was a natural in commercials. I suspect sponsors prefer acting skills plus driving skills. For me, driving skills is more important than communication skills. But NASCAR has become a televised sport and drivers have to give a lot of interviews - that has become a driver skill now.
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half a year after he left Edwards was still doing sponsor obligations. Says a lot about his sponsor skills.
 
StandOnIt said:
half a year after he left Edwards was still doing sponsor obligations. Says a lot about his sponsor skills.
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Thought it was interesting how the whole transition to Toyota thing went....Toyota didn't push it (this was intentional per David Wilson), and Carl didn't go overboard. Doubtful that Carl was ever destined to be the face of Toyota. :D
 
Jones was going to be in Cup sooner rather than later. JGR had to find a spot in their stable ASAP. Busch isn't going anywhere, they just brought in Suarez. That left Denny and Matt as to who was out. I think Denny just signed a new contract. Maybe I'm wrong. Matt's age probably worked against him.

I really think Gibbs wanted Jones to drive for FR for one year, then figure out where to go regarding Suarez and who was out. Carl forced their hand by retiring a year early. I really think JGR would have put Jones in the 20 in '18 even if Edwards didn't retire. The problem is Edwards retirement forced their hand and Kenseth spilling the beans made both of their moves public without them announcing it themselves.
 
Kenseth is almost 3 races ahead of Jones in real points 4 points ahead of the other. 6 places ahead in 11th. I guess it is all about the money, it isn't performance so far.
 
MRM said:
Jones was going to be in Cup sooner rather than later. JGR had to find a spot in their stable ASAP. Busch isn't going anywhere, they just brought in Suarez. That left Denny and Matt as to who was out. I think Denny just signed a new contract. Maybe I'm wrong. Matt's age probably worked against him.

I really think Gibbs wanted Jones to drive for FR for one year, then figure out where to go regarding Suarez and who was out. Carl forced their hand by retiring a year early. I really think JGR would have put Jones in the 20 in '18 even if Edwards didn't retire. The problem is Edwards retirement forced their hand and Kenseth spilling the beans made both of their moves public without them announcing it themselves.
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Sensible people see it as you do but other tin foil hat wearing folks see conspiracies and Joe Gibbs stabbing people in the back.
 
JohnHill said:
Doesn't really prove anything. No where does it tell me they planned to take Daniel to the cup series. carl is the reason arris is even on a cup car.

We will see the answer to this anyway, arris and all those other logos on the 19 right now will let you know what they really think with their money... we will just have to watch as it's time for all those companies to go to the contract re signing talks for the 19... we will see who they really wanted in the car
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By 2019 Carl would have been gone anyway and Arris would have had their boy in the car 1 year later than later. Carl means nothing to the Mexican race fans, their own boy is who they watch and so the sponsor has the right driver in the car.
 
Team Penske said:
By 2019 Carl would have been gone anyway and Arris would have had their boy in the car 1 year later than later. Carl means nothing to the Mexican race fans, their own boy is who they watch and so the sponsor has the right driver in the car.
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I don't think he will get it even when I showed him that Daniel has been sponsored by Mexican based Arris for almost his whole career. If Carl didn't see that one coming he would be blind as a bat. The big Arris on his car hood might have been his first sign.;)
 
Team Penske said:
By 2019 Carl would have been gone anyway and Arris would have had their boy in the car 1 year later than later. Carl means nothing to the Mexican race fans, their own boy is who they watch and so the sponsor has the right driver in the car.
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Carl was smart to bail out before Joe Gibbs stabbed him in the back.........:D
 
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