BUILDER RELIABILITY

In your opinions who do you think has the best horsepower?
In this order I would say....
Hendrick



Roush Yates
ECR
TRD

Triad & everyhting else

The big gap is because Hendrick seems to have the most by far and the other big three are really close.
 
pudge said:
i got a tour of james finch's shop and i asked nick harrison about some motors there, and he pointed to 2 motors and said they bought those from hendrick's and pointed at another one and said that one is a lease. he also said with the leasing hendrick would sometimes offer a discount on price if they would take a motor that had something new in it that hadn't been proven yet. it was there choice to try the unproven motor or go with proven one.
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this is accurate, finch did run experimental stuff for a discount. When a team leases engines which is what SHR does, penske, ECR does with furniture row and jtg. the deal comes with an engine turner. I think they even install and remove the engines. The teams are extremely careful about who can look at their engines. Tony stewart once said years ago gibbs would keep spare parts for 2-3 years before they would sell them. They would not let an engine or even parts out of the place for that long. I would imagine the engine tuner can adjust the engine to whatever maps the team wants, just like before where maybe they leaned the engine out at a road course like senoma or someplace else.
 
hidesert cowboy said:
this is accurate, finch did run experimental stuff for a discount. When a team leases engines which is what SHR does, penske, ECR does with furniture row and jtg. the deal comes with an engine turner. I think they even install and remove the engines. The teams are extremely careful about who can look at their engines. Tony stewart once said years ago gibbs would keep spare parts for 2-3 years before they would sell them. They would not let an engine or even parts out of the place for that long. I would imagine the engine tuner can adjust the engine to whatever maps the team wants, just like before where maybe they leaned the engine out at a road course like senoma or someplace else.
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I'm surprised they even sell the engines outright to the factory teams. For 30 years in F1 and IndyCar they have only "leased" engines, so the Cosworths and Ilmors of the world could get them back at the end of the season to prevent the enemy from buying engines from bankrupt teams and tearing them down to learn their secrets.
 
KevinWI said:
I'm surprised they even sell the engines outright to the factory teams. For 30 years in F1 and IndyCar they have only "leased" engines, so the Cosworths and Ilmors of the world could get them back at the end of the season to prevent the enemy from buying engines from bankrupt teams and tearing them down to learn their secrets.
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In theory, there is no such thing as a factory team in NASCAR (although TRD teams come very close). Manufacturers have to make the blocks and heads available to anybody who wants to buy 'em. Now, I would imagine that you would get the version that is made of Legos, but you get the idea. It is the builders who lease the engines to teams.
 
Fordracing7 said:
In your opinions who do you think has the best horsepower?
In this order I would say....
Hendrick



Roush Yates
ECR
TRD

Triad & everyhting else

The big gap is because Hendrick seems to have the most by far and the other big three are really close.
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You know, I had never really thought of it. I suppose your ranking is fine. However, I don't think the gap is huge. What impresses me about Hendrick is the chassis tuning. Those guys are freakin' brilliant. I seriously doubt that there is much of a gap in hp between any of the teams in hp. What makes you think that the Hendrick power is so massively larger than the others? Where is the line between a car having straight away speed because they got off of a corner, and raw hp? Not asking those questions to be argumentative. Just want your thoughts...
 
Revman said:
In theory, there is no such thing as a factory team in NASCAR (although TRD teams come very close). Manufacturers have to make the blocks and heads available to anybody who wants to buy 'em. Now, I would imagine that you would get the version that is made of Legos, but you get the idea. It is the builders who lease the engines to teams.
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I didn't mean to write "factory teams". I guess my fingers have a mind of their own sometimes.

I guess my question was is does anybody "buy" engines in NASCAR or are they all leases so HMS/TRD/RYR can get them back at the end of the season to prevent the other builders from getting their hands on them.
 
Revman said:
You know, I had never really thought of it. I suppose your ranking is fine. However, I don't think the gap is huge. What impresses me about Hendrick is the chassis tuning. Those guys are freakin' brilliant. I seriously doubt that there is much of a gap in hp between any of the teams in hp. What makes you think that the Hendrick power is so massively larger than the others? Where is the line between a car having straight away speed because they got off of a corner, and raw hp? Not asking those questions to be argumentative. Just want your thoughts...
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Maybe it is all in the chassis, maybe it's the corner off speed but it would be hard to say for sure, because they never release any numbers. But it simply seems like those things "pull" after the corner off exit momentum turns into the straight away speed everywhere they go better than almost everyone all the time. Obviously not the plate tracks.
 
Revman said:
You know, I had never really thought of it. I suppose your ranking is fine. However, I don't think the gap is huge. What impresses me about Hendrick is the chassis tuning. Those guys are freakin' brilliant. I seriously doubt that there is much of a gap in hp between any of the teams in hp. What makes you think that the Hendrick power is so massively larger than the others? Where is the line between a car having straight away speed because they got off of a corner, and raw hp? Not asking those questions to be argumentative. Just want your thoughts...
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Maybe I just see that way because I can't stand them haha.
 
KevinWI said:
I didn't mean to write "factory teams". I guess my fingers have a mind of their own sometimes.

I guess my question was is does anybody "buy" engines in NASCAR or are they all leases so HMS/TRD/RYR can get them back at the end of the season to prevent the other builders from getting their hands on them.
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All lease as I understand it. Gotcha on the factory team thing....The JGR/MWR/TRD relationship comes very close to a factory team approach, and in some respects could be consider so. However, without going into great detail the way it all works is pretty much identical to the relationships that other builders have with teams.
 
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Fordracing7 said:
Maybe it is all in the chassis, maybe it's the corner off speed but it would be hard to say for sure, because they never release any numbers. But it simply seems like those things "pull" after the corner off exit momentum turns into the straight away speed everywhere they go better than almost everyone all the time. Obviously not the plate tracks.
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Yeah, like I said, I am more impressed with Hendrick chassis dynamics than motor. IMO all of the manufacturers are pretty close which is why reliability is crucial. If they introduced the 5 liter, the horsepower race would be on and that would be fun. I believe that the Hendrick advantage is in corner off and not raw hp. They aren't giving anything up there of course, but their exit is killer.
 
HENDRICK-- 4
RCR-- 2
RYR-- 2
TRD-- 2
TRIAD-- 1
RACE ENGINES PLUS (TOYOTA)-- 1
PRO MOTOR (CHEVY)-- 1
ERNIE ELLIOT (CHEVY)-- 2
 
HENDRICK-- 4
RYR-- 3
RCR-- 2
TRD-- 2
TRIAD-- 1
RACE ENGINES PLUS (TOYOTA)-- 1
PRO MOTOR (CHEVY)-- 1
ERNIE ELLIOT (CHEVY)-- 2
 
HENDRICK-- 4
RYR-- 3
ECR-- 3
TRD-- 2
TRIAD-- 1
RACE ENGINES PLUS (TOYOTA)-- 1
PRO MOTOR (CHEVY)-- 1
ERNIE ELLIOT (CHEVY)-- 2
 
ToyYoda said:
You mean Chocolate was actually talking about something other than Dale Earnhardt or RCR on that show? Color me shocked.
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Choc is probably the top radio personality IMO, He's old school , not one of your slick , university trained media types . He comes from racing and has lived racing , still does . He's a fixture at Bowman Grey still . When he says something that offends you , that's what is great . He's not afraid to do that . As for talking about Earnhardt , he can't hide his past . He's into the RCR shop almost every day and keeps up with the news , who else is that close to the sport?
 
ted@economy said:
Choc is probably the top radio personality IMO, He's old school , not one of your slick , university trained media types . He comes from racing and has lived racing , still does . He's a fixture at Bowman Grey still . When he says something that offends you , that's what is great . He's not afraid to do that . As for talking about Earnhardt , he can't hide his past . He's into the RCR shop almost every day and keeps up with the news , who else is that close to the sport?
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I absolutely agree with you on all accounts. Choc is awesome, but it is irritating when he is forced into the PC thing, and won't say what he really thinks about certain drivers--namely, Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick. I have interacted with him via Twitter, and he will get after it one to one, but backs down when it's too public. I think that is unfortunate. I would like to see him say EXACTLY what he thinks 100% of the time. As for his references to The Intimidator--I cannot get enough. He loved the dude, and would kill for him IMO. I respect that deeply.
 
I guess I read between the lines too when Choc is being politically correct . The man isn't stupid , we all say things we regret , and then have to eat our words later on . Didn't Bowyer call Michael the stupidest driver on track ( or something similar) . True or not , I'm thinkin Bowyer won't be saying what he really thinks about any other owners . Opinions change , folks in the media have to live with theirs .
 
ted@economy said:
I guess I read between the lines too when Choc is being politically correct . The man isn't stupid , we all say things we regret , and then have to eat our words later on . Didn't Bowyer call Michael the stupidest driver on track ( or something similar) . True or not , I'm thinkin Bowyer won't be saying what he really thinks about any other owners . Opinions change , folks in the media have to live with theirs .
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Clint called Michael "the worst driver in NASCAR" haha
 
ted@economy said:
I guess I read between the lines too when Choc is being politically correct . The man isn't stupid , we all say things we regret , and then have to eat our words later on . Didn't Bowyer call Michael the stupidest driver on track ( or something similar) . True or not , I'm thinkin Bowyer won't be saying what he really thinks about any other owners . Opinions change , folks in the media have to live with theirs .
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Yup, but the Choc's awesomeness is evident when he refuses to kiss ass. Call it out man! It is freakin' painful to listen to him start a piece on his hatred of Kyle with...."Look, I don't have any problem with Kyle. He's a vury, vury good driver......"
 
Revman said:
Yup, but the Choc's awesomeness is evident when he refuses to kiss ass. Call it out man! It is freakin' painful to listen to him start a piece on his hatred of Kyle with...."Look, I don't have any problem with Kyle. He's a vury, vury good driver......"
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True , we gotta be a be respectful of other peoples' favorite driver . If not respectful of the driver , at least respectful of his fans . Some of whom are little kids who don't deserve or understand the hatred coming from the mouths of the adults .
 
ted@economy said:
I guess I read between the lines too when Choc is being politically correct . The man isn't stupid , we all say things we regret , and then have to eat our words later on . Didn't Bowyer call Michael the stupidest driver on track ( or something similar) . True or not , I'm thinkin Bowyer won't be saying what he really thinks about any other owners . Opinions change , folks in the media have to live with theirs .
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Clint was telling the truth though.
 
Revman, can you fill us in on what happened to Kyle at Pocono?

Seems very early in the race to have a failure, was it an experimental engine?
 
3wideinturn1 said:
Revman, can you fill us in on what happened to Kyle at Pocono?

Seems very early in the race to have a failure, was it an experimental engine?
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Yeah, I have been back and forth on this since the failure. The ESPN crew kind of insinuated that it was experimental when Kyle said, "You know what it is...it's a piston...." to Dave Rogers. That made sense because Kyle wasn't totally freakin' out, and he was specific in his description. Of course, when they interviewed him, he said the problem was "...between the frame rails." Dave Moody put it out there on NASCAR Radio that he used the wording he used because Toyota has given him the word that his rants about the engines won't be tolerated any longer. Brian Pattie said today on NASCAR Radio that another spec is coming for Michigan and then a final one for Atlanta. Soooooo, my feeling is that there is a possibility that Kyle was running an experimental piece (not a different spec, perhaps a piston) on the assumption that it had a more than reasonable chance of holding together while producing more power. Kyle wouldn't run a Hail Mary IMO. It had to have been pretty much sound. I would assume that they could have been making some decisions on the Chase spec motor--probably too late for Michigan if they were experimenting. Equally possible is that Kyle has been given the gag. Why would he comply? Easy. Toyota is totally floating KBM, and he knows it (check out the truck sponsorships lately). Kyle has one more year on his contract. There is a significant possibility IMO that next year will be better with the horsepower reductions. The cars should suit Kyle, and if he gets on a roll and happier, he would re-up with JGR with the continued Toyota support for KBM. If he remains in the same frame of mind he is in currently, I believe that he will leave JGR next year in favor of anything running a Hendrick--maybe the Danica experiment goes away and he joins his brother at SHR. Without Toyota, KBM will go away. I doubt that Chevy and Mr. H. would float KBM. Overall, probably a combination of an experimental piece and the gag IMO.
 
HENDRICK-- 4
RYR-- 3
ECR-- 3
TRD-- 3
 
I find it hard to believe that any top Cup team would run an experimental engine in a points paying race, there's just too much on the line. Especially when you look at what happened in 2011, tied in points, title decided by wins. Just 1 more point and Carl Edwards would have a championship. What do I know though, I always thought the dyno room, ARCA & non pts events was where experiments were carried out. As far as the gag, gotta agree, you never slap the hand that feeds you. Kyles won a lot of races for Toyota since Comming on board in 08 but that doesn't mean they wouldn't drop him for continuously dissin their equipment. Personally, I'd love to see him join SHR, that would be awesome.
 
Restrictor Plate King! said:
I find it hard to believe that any top Cup team would run an experimental engine in a points paying race, there's just too much on the line. Especially when you look at what happened in 2011, tied in points, title decided by wins. Just 1 more point and Carl Edwards would have a championship. What do I know though, I always thought the dyno room, ARCA & non pts events was where experiments were carried out. As far as the gag, gotta agree, you never slap the hand that feeds you. Kyles won a lot of races for Toyota since Comming on board in 08 but that doesn't mean they wouldn't drop him for continuously dissin their equipment. Personally, I'd love to see him join SHR, that would be awesome.
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Nothing was on the line for Kyle though, he's already in the Chase. Plenty of time for experimenting.
 
Restrictor Plate King! said:
I find it hard to believe that any top Cup team would run an experimental engine in a points paying race, there's just too much on the line. Especially when you look at what happened in 2011, tied in points, title decided by wins. Just 1 more point and Carl Edwards would have a championship. What do I know though, I always thought the dyno room, ARCA & non pts events was where experiments were carried out. As far as the gag, gotta agree, you never slap the hand that feeds you. Kyles won a lot of races for Toyota since Comming on board in 08 but that doesn't mean they wouldn't drop him for continuously dissin their equipment. Personally, I'd love to see him join SHR, that would be awesome.
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Well when your manufacturer has 2 wins through 21 races, it's probably a good idea to try some new things because what they've been doing hasn't been working thus far. Furthermore, the points during the first 26 races won't affect the Chase standings, they're reset based on total wins. During the Chase every point and position will matter, but with the current system it doesn't make a huge difference during the first 26 races. Obviously total points matter to stay in the top 30, but Kyle's DNF will have little impact on his Chase seeding so it makes sense to push the envelope somewhere.
 
Wow, let's all gang up on RPK, guess I hit a nerve...
 
3wideinturn1 said:
Well when your manufacturer has 2 wins through 21 races, it's probably a good idea to try some new things because what they've been doing hasn't been working thus far. Furthermore, the points during the first 26 races won't affect the Chase standings, they're reset based on total wins. During the Chase every point and position will matter, but with the current system it doesn't make a huge difference during the first 26 races. Obviously total points matter to stay in the top 30, but Kyle's DNF will have little impact on his Chase seeding so it makes sense to push the envelope somewhere.
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Yeah, I don't think this so much that Toyota has been that bad. Good reliability, and 4 of 5 TRD teams in the Chase. It's that Hendrick has been so good. You've got to start lofting Hail Marys to even have a shot at them. I am absolutely certain that ever since race 4 or 5, Toyota has been building for the Chase--they knew where they were and what a mammoth undertaking it would be to get caught up. They want wins, but would trade them to have 5 in the Chase. Pattie said on NASCAR Radio that the Chase spec TRD piece would be run in Atlanta. That will be the definitive moment for Toyota, 2014.
 
Restrictor Plate King! said:
I find it hard to believe that any top Cup team would run an experimental engine in a points paying race, there's just too much on the line. Especially when you look at what happened in 2011, tied in points, title decided by wins. Just 1 more point and Carl Edwards would have a championship. What do I know though, I always thought the dyno room, ARCA & non pts events was where experiments were carried out. As far as the gag, gotta agree, you never slap the hand that feeds you. Kyles won a lot of races for Toyota since Comming on board in 08 but that doesn't mean they wouldn't drop him for continuously dissin their equipment. Personally, I'd love to see him join SHR, that would be awesome.
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...as far as Kyle leaving JGR and Toyota/TRD....if he doesn't want to be here, I really don't want him here. I love the guy--everything about him including his criticism of TRD--that's who he is, but if he truly is unhappy with TRD....Good-bye. This sport is cyclical. He should be careful about jumping to the current best thing because it tends to be current for a very short period of time. Don't get me wrong--Hendrick will be strong forever, but if another builder/manufacturer can get close enough to allow the talent of the driver to challenge, then they can be beaten. Right now, kicking Hendrick's ass is impossible, but getting close enough to beat them is very possible--Penske is there, and JGR has an outside chance. This is what makes NASCAR great.
 
Restrictor Plate King! said:
Wow, let's all gang up on RPK, guess I hit a nerve...
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Umm I don't think anybody is "ganging up" on you, sorry if you feel that way. We're just having a discussion with some differing opinions, that's all. I'd try not to take it personally, it's just a forum.
 
KevinWI said:
I guess my question was is does anybody "buy" engines in NASCAR or are they all leases so HMS/TRD/RYR can get them back at the end of the season to prevent the other builders from getting their hands on them.
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i know some teams have bought and also leased some engines too. my understanding from a crew chief i know, it's their choice.
 
Revman said:
...as far as Kyle leaving JGR and Toyota/TRD....if he doesn't want to be here, I really don't want him here. I love the guy--everything about him including his criticism of TRD--that's who he is, but if he truly is unhappy with TRD....Good-bye. This sport is cyclical. He should be careful about jumping to the current best thing because it tends to be current for a very short period of time.
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Yep. It was just last year JGR dominated and won the majority of the races on the 1.5-mile ovals. MWR was also pretty strong on those tracks until the Richmond incident threw them off for the Chase.
 
Restrictor Plate King! said:
I find it hard to believe that any top Cup team would run an experimental engine in a points paying race, there's just too much on the line. Especially when you look at what happened in 2011, tied in points, title decided by wins. Just 1 more point and Carl Edwards would have a championship. What do I know though, I always thought the dyno room, ARCA & non pts events was where experiments were carried out. As far as the gag, gotta agree, you never slap the hand that feeds you. Kyles won a lot of races for Toyota since Comming on board in 08 but that doesn't mean they wouldn't drop him for continuously dissin their equipment. Personally, I'd love to see him join SHR, that would be awesome.
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Gibbs will do anything to get his "golden boy" Kenseth a win, including using Kyle and Denny as test dummies. Gibbs must have had a dream that Matty won him a cup.................... hope he isnt holding his breath on that hope :D
 
pudge said:
i know some teams have bought and also leased some engines too. my understanding from a crew chief i know, it's their choice.
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Nobody from the TRD stable purchases engines. Raced and back to Costa Mesa they go. Respecting your post pudge, but I am unaware of any team that purchases their motors unless you are one of the smaller builders--TRIAD, ProMotor, etc. In those cases, I believe you get the obligatory block and heads without support, etc.
 
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