Can (and Should) NASCAR's Culture Of Cheating Change?

LewTheShoe

Team Owner
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
4,402
Points
593
The largely-spec Next Gen car represents a new competitive philosophy and a new business model of team ownership. It came about because the team owners pushed for it, realizing that the prior mode of operating was non-viable economically. Engineering and development efforts approaching F1 levels just didn't make sense with Nascar levels of race revenue and sponsorship.

I've offered the opinion that Nascar *must* change its 70-year culture of rampant cheating in order for the Next Gen business model to work. Many here have opined that changing that culture will never happen. Brad Keselowski has clearly stated his view that "cheating to win" really means "cheating to go bankrupt."

What say you?

 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
60,026
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
I'm with Kez and I think Nascar should be more ruthless with penalties. A case in point was earlier this year Toyota used different screening in the front end of their cars that was specified. It backfired on them, the cars all overheated, BUT there was no penalty for doing so. Kez comes along and they get blasted (as they should) for messing with the wheels. Weeks go by and the 42 and the 43 get level 1's for once again using different screening like the yotas used in their rocker box assemblies. Now the tape deal and McDowell bondo. Point being, I hope they stay on it and make them feel it when they do get caught.
 

wi_racefan

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
3,247
Points
423
I'm fine with them cracking down as long as it's done on a consistent basis. To me the sport shows none of that right now.

Manipulating a single source part - its clear the penalty for getting caught at the R&D center is worse than at the track. Note: if its a single source part teams should not be able to repair them period. Either have enough for everyone or Nascar is responsible for repairing them and returning it to the teams
Tire coming off on pit road - well it depends on the circumstance
Last week taking the access road - People did it all weekend 2 guys at the end of the race get penalized

Honestly I think they need to ratchet up the severity of them. Modify a single source part lose whatever current playoff eligibility you currently have and have to earn it again. If a tire comes off and leaves the pit box same penalty for everyone
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
11,818
Points
883
A case in point was earlier this year Toyota used different screening in the front end of their cars that was specified.
Here you go again....Please cite your source about the screens....and that WE broke a rule as you insinuated. First time I have ever heard this mentioned anywhere. You don't have **** on this, do you?
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
11,818
Points
883
NASCAR struggles to find a balance between spec racing and some innovation on behalf of the manufacturers. Without some freedom, why the hell would the manufacturers even be there? Consequently, they get stuck in this situation of pushing for spec in a culture that isn't used to it. I do think that the Next Gen concept is solid. The ONLY way it works is if NASCAR busts everything, but is that even reasonable? Can they find EVERYTHING? If they can't, NASCAR is what it always was, and those that have will win, and those who don't will get their asses handed to them eventually. It will be a never ending game of cat and mouse, and inevitably, more DQ's....and is that good for the sport?
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
11,818
Points
883
This is a great topic....Allow me to throw this out there.......Since the Next Gen, couldn't we agree that NASCAR has a similar model to IndyCar? Spec chassis, and manufacturer specific engines. Simple question....Why doesn't Indy have this same culture? Is it because they can trim the aero?
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
60,026
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Here you go again....Please cite your source about the screens....and that WE broke a rule as you insinuated. First time I have ever heard this mentioned anywhere. You don't have **** on this, do you?
Protective screens :dunce:


The overheating issues that plagued Toyota’s teams during Sunday’s NASCAR Cup Series race were not related to the engine and didn’t have anything to do with the design of the Toyota Camry TRD Next Gen car. Instead, the problem had to do with protective screens that worked too effectively, Toyota Racing Development president David Wilson told The Athletic on Wednesday.

 

sdj

Just a race fan
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Messages
6,209
Points
793
Location
In the woods (as much as possible) RM LogoType (4)
Here is the solution:

Since we are basically IROC racing now, it is simple. The drivers show up to the track, Nascar gives each of them an identically built and set up car and they go race, with what ever decals that the team wanted, decided earlier, would be wraped on the car. Nascar sets the price of the cars and all associated costs there in and hands an invoice to the team payable in full prior to the day of the race. Me personally I would get a 75% deposit to get the car ready in advance, but hay, that's just me. All the teams need then is tires, racing tape, few tools and a great pit crew.

If they are not going to do this then do what @West stated, and give them areas to work in.

Brad is whining as usual because he is getting his ass kicked. Yes Brads a good driver, but, they have not figured this car out yet, others have.
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
11,818
Points
883
Protective screens :dunce:


The overheating issues that plagued Toyota’s teams during Sunday’s NASCAR Cup Series race were not related to the engine and didn’t have anything to do with the design of the Toyota Camry TRD Next Gen car. Instead, the problem had to do with protective screens that worked too effectively, Toyota Racing Development president David Wilson told The Athletic on Wednesday.

Yeah, great article....and nowhere does it say that those screens were illegal or even inappropriate. NOWHERE. As suspected, you don't have ****....and to suggest that the screens on the Chevy rockers are the same thing as those on the nose of the Toyotas....
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
11,818
Points
883
Here is the solution:

Since we are basically IROC racing now, it is simple. The drivers show up to the track, Nascar gives each of them an identically built and set up car and they go race, with what ever decals that the team wanted, decided earlier, would be wraped on the car. Nascar sets the price of the cars and all associated costs there in and hands an invoice to the team payable in full prior to the day of the race. Me personally I would get a 75% deposit to get the car ready in advance, but hay, that's just me. All the teams need then is tires, racing tape, few tools and a great pit crew.

If they are not going to do this then do what @West stated, and give them areas to work in.

Brad is whining as usual because he is getting his ass kicked. Yes Brads a good driver, but, they have not figured this car out yet, others have.
This is the thing. If you don't go to this extreme, the culture will not change. Period.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
60,026
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Yeah, great article....and nowhere does it say that those screens were illegal or even inappropriate. NOWHERE. As suspected, you don't have ****....and to suggest that the screens on the Chevy rockers are the same thing as those on the nose of the Toyotas....
It becomes ya. Tell it to the 42 and the 43 who got L1 penalties for using unapproved screening. You can google that lol.
 

FLRacingFan

Team Owner
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
30,217
Points
883
Location
Florida
This is a great topic....Allow me to throw this out there.......Since the Next Gen, couldn't we agree that NASCAR has a similar model to IndyCar? Spec chassis, and manufacturer specific engines. Simple question....Why doesn't Indy have this same culture? Is it because they can trim the aero?
That last point is probably a good part of it, but IndyCar is probably surprisingly less spec than a Cup car at this point. A lot of smaller stuff is still open for development, some items like wheels are open to multiple vendors (OZ Racing and BBS are the two big ones there), and most importantly, damping is the hot wide-open development area. Very important when you consider most American street and road courses are not the pristine flat surfaces you see in much of Europe.
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
11,818
Points
883
. It becomes ya. Tell it to the 42 and the 43 who got L1 penalties for using unapproved screening. You can google that lol.
Literally nobody in the universe has ever suggested that what happened in Cali was a rule violation except you...and you are oh so unbiased. Pathetic....but you throw it out there like a statement of fact....
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
60,026
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Literally nobody in the universe has ever suggested that what happened in Cali was a rule violation except you...and you are oh so unbiased. Pathetic....but you throw it out there like a statement of fact....
Instead of going on one of you age old indignant yota rants, you should fact check what you are having a problem with
 

Speedbowl14

Ryan Preece and short tracks
Joined
May 18, 2014
Messages
2,602
Points
443
Location
SLC, Utah
I like where we are at now.

Auto racing is dynamic, especially NASCAR. NASCAR is generally on top of it. I am certain in the mid-late 00s era there was a LOT more cheating than today. Unlimited money, unlimited testing, rapid wind tunnel and 7-post shaker development, and, most overlooked.... insane amounts of computer/simulation power. Meanwhile NASCAR still had officials holding clipboards and put physical templates on the cars. Fast forward to today... NASCAR in their inspection process has gotten much more accurate. The teams have limits on testing and wind tunnel time. And team's financials are down so no more throwing $10 million at trying to find .00001 second or .04284% more downforce.
 

Mr. Gregory

R.I.P. Hana Kimura
Joined
May 19, 2013
Messages
27,865
Points
883
Location
New Jersey
I came in here prepared to say that NASCAR was started in the Prohibition era by a bunch of moonshiners, hence the inherent, ingrained culture of cheating which will never change.

After listening to Brad's comments, I totally get what he's saying and agree with him. I think that the culture of cheating will continue until it is no longer a potentially profitable or viable strategy for the teams. So, I say let the penalties continue, and increase if necessary, until the culture of cheating improves.
 

FLRacingFan

Team Owner
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
30,217
Points
883
Location
Florida
I like where we are at now.

Auto racing is dynamic, especially NASCAR. NASCAR is generally on top of it. I am certain in the mid-late 00s era there was a LOT more cheating than today. Unlimited money, unlimited testing, rapid wind tunnel and 7-post shaker development, and, most overlooked.... insane amounts of computer/simulation power. Meanwhile NASCAR still had officials holding clipboards and put physical templates on the cars. Fast forward to today... NASCAR in their inspection process has gotten much more accurate. The teams have limits on testing and wind tunnel time. And team's financials are down so no more throwing $10 million at trying to find .00001 second or .04284% more downforce.
Agree with a lot of that. I’ve seen guys say they’re spending more time than ever on sim work though - Brad himself, James Small, few others. Big teams still have money to spend and they’re going to spend it trying to find whatever advantage they can. Some of that they attributed to the new car, some of it to relative lack of practice compared to what they used to have. But so far at least it does seem like things are tighter than before.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
60,026
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
I came in here prepared to say that NASCAR was started in the Prohibition era by a bunch of moonshiners, hence the inherent, ingrained culture of cheating which will never change.

After listening to Brad's comments, I totally get what he's saying and agree with him. I think that the culture of cheating will continue until it is no longer a potentially profitable or viable strategy for the teams. So, I say let the penalties continue, and increase if necessary, until the culture of cheating improves.
I think cars that are already in the chase can have playoff points taken away in addition to regular series points if there are races left before the playoffs. I think they could take away all of the playoff points and even playoff points to come for teams that don't have many to start with.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
60,026
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Here is the solution:

Since we are basically IROC racing now, it is simple. The drivers show up to the track, Nascar gives each of them an identically built and set up car and they go race, with what ever decals that the team wanted, decided earlier, would be wraped on the car. Nascar sets the price of the cars and all associated costs there in and hands an invoice to the team payable in full prior to the day of the race. Me personally I would get a 75% deposit to get the car ready in advance, but hay, that's just me. All the teams need then is tires, racing tape, few tools and a great pit crew.

If they are not going to do this then do what @West stated, and give them areas to work in.

Brad is whining as usual because he is getting his ass kicked. Yes Brads a good driver, but, they have not figured this car out yet, others have.
That isn't entirely true. IROC racing cars were built by the same people in the same shop and used the same body, engine and drivetrain and setup.

The Next Gen uses a different engine and body, has numerous suspension changes for adjustments for balance using caster, camber, toe in or out and that is apparent watching cars get faster and slower as the race wears on and the track changes.
 

Speedbowl14

Ryan Preece and short tracks
Joined
May 18, 2014
Messages
2,602
Points
443
Location
SLC, Utah
Agree with a lot of that. I’ve seen guys say they’re spending more time than ever on sim work though - Brad himself, James Small, few others. Big teams still have money to spend and they’re going to spend it trying to find whatever advantage they can. Some of that they attributed to the new car, some of it to relative lack of practice compared to what they used to have. But so far at least it does seem like things are tighter than before.

Yep, sims are where it's at nowadays, that's for sure.

I can't wait till Chad Knaus and Steve Letarte are a little older and out of the NASCAR world and are more candid about what they were doing to Jimmie and Jeff's cars in the mid-00s. Ray Evernham is a great listen-to now.
 

acmerocket

Team Owner
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
1,645
Points
343
it cost way more money to gain a 1/10 of a second on a spec car than a car with more open rules, be careful what you wish for. teams will and do spend what ever it takes to be better than the other guys, thats just racing.:owquitit:
 

gone

Team Owner
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
656
Points
253
It's not so much a "culture of rampant cheating" as it is human nature (at least of racers) striving to get an edge to feed their competitive nature. It's an addictive rush when you beat others, amplified by winning races and receiving accolades and trophies and money. Do well enough and you get rewarded with sponsorship money that allows you to ramp up your addiction. Everybody who has raced has been exposed to it.

I'm not so keen about some racer's attitudes about it, but at least some acknowledge it. Ol' DW said "If you don't cheat, you look like an idiot; if you cheat and don't get caught, you look like a hero; if you cheat and get caught, you look like a dope. Put me where I belong." When he said that the racers understood what he meant better than non-racers did.

I liked Smokey Yunick's position on "cheating". He would not defy a written rule, and he despised others who did, but he also felt that if there wasn't a written rule then there was room to play. He caused a lot of rules to be written, and he might not have been happy but he abided once the rule was in place.

Doesn't matter if the cars are heavily regulated or run-what-you-brung, competition forces most to push the limits. Cheating is just more obvious when the cars are heavily regulated. If NASCAR is going to stick to their current plan then they have no choice but to heavily punish cheats. I prefer less regulation so racers have more latitude to exercise their creative talents, but as has already been pointed out in this thread racers will drive themselves to bankruptcy if allowed free reign. I suppose I'd rather have rules and harsh punishments than races with few entrants because too few can afford the equipment and development.
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
4,502
Points
493
The Cup Series is a big boy game. Put on your pants and get to work. If Brad or anyone else doesn’t like it, go field a team in Spec Miata. The owners that pushed for all this spec crap are the first ones to break the rules, so I just tune them out. I have yet to see a sport where somebody isn’t trying to get an edge by doing something that is outside of the spirit of the rules if not outright illegal, so I just can’t get too worked up about it. If you want purity, go play chess or something.
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
11,818
Points
883
Instead of going on one of you age old indignant yota rants, you should fact check what you are having a problem with
I did....and fact...you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
 

AuzGrams

Team Owner
Joined
Sep 18, 2016
Messages
5,452
Points
643
The Cup Series is a big boy game. Put on your pants and get to work. If Brad or anyone else doesn’t like it, go field a team in Spec Miata. The owners that pushed for all this spec crap are the first ones to break the rules, so I just tune them out. I have yet to see a sport where somebody isn’t trying to get an edge by doing something that is outside of the spirit of the rules if not outright illegal, so I just can’t get too worked up about it. If you want purity, go play chess or something.

Brad doesn’t have time to read this forum.
 

Spotter22

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Messages
8,575
Points
693
The owners said " save us from ourselves". They and the manufacturers along with NASCAR created the car that would do it but evidently the word didnt trickle down to the Engineers and Crew Chiefs. The owners really meant rules for thee but not for me with a wink and a nod. If they truly wanted it they would start canning anyone who purposely disobeyed the rules, they are complicit.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
60,026
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
The owners said " save us from ourselves". They and the manufacturers along with NASCAR created the car that would do it but evidently the word didnt trickle down to the Engineers and Crew Chiefs. The owners really meant rules for thee but not for me with a wink and a nod. If they truly wanted it they would start canning anyone who purposely disobeyed the rules, they are complicit.
So far none of them have protested the penalties that have been dealt out. ;)
 

Spotter22

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Messages
8,575
Points
693
This is the unfortunate part, if they started sitting teams for a race then you risk sponsors bailing like NAPA. Its a catch 22
 

Spotter22

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Messages
8,575
Points
693
Not a fan of total spec racing, Nascar needs to designate certain areas that are open to team inovation. If it means adding tape to the front end ... fine, allow all teams to play with that.
Problem with this is, the "innovation" costs teams tons of money which is what they are trying to eliminate. The teams have hundreds of areas to play with to find speed with the current car. This not IROC
 
Top Bottom