Cup Championship thread --- Phoenix

[wi_racefan]

if we must have the playoffs go back to it like the first year.

Top 10 in Points gets in.

That was the best version and funny Nascar got drama for the final race with Kurt,Jimmie,and Jeff and that that was still not good enough for them and added wildcard cards a year later.

The wild cards were added so they cold try to get Jr in the playoffs.

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[SlicedBread22]

I firmly believe 90% of people who "don't like the playoffs" just don't like Joey

 

[wi_racefan]

I firmly believe 90% of people who "don't like the playoffs" just don't like Joey

I could care less who wins it but to me playoffs don't work in motorsports because you have nonplayoff teams on the same field of competition with playoff teams.

Imagine watching last years super bowl between the chief's and eagles and a player from the packers runs on the field, blindsides Patrick Mahomes and takes him out of the super bowl. That's what this format has.

The completion of almost every single race championship has been dictated by something a non championship driver did.

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[Jorge De Guzman]

I firmly believe 90% of people who "don't like the playoffs" just don't like Joey

Nothing to do with Joey imo. He’s a generational talent, a title contender in any format. There’s been multiple instances since 2014 of this format having cracks in the foundation, most of which have nothing to do with your guy.

 

[Chase Fan 79]

Yeah, we saw it the first time when someone else posted it yesterday. It was irrelevant then and it still is now.

I think you're right that it's irrelevant as far as the result this year but man does it spell out everything wring with this format for me. Our champ had an average finish of 17.1? What a title battle it would have been between Bell and Elliott.

 

[Pat]

if we must have the playoffs go back to it like the first year.

Top 10 in Points gets in.

That was the best version and funny Nascar got drama for the final race with Kurt,Jimmie,and Jeff and that that was still not good enough for them and added wildcard cards a year later.

I agree with the big 10 at the finish. We need that.

 

[Pat]

I firmly believe 90% of people who "don't like the playoffs" just don't like Joey

I for one, like Joey just fine.

 

[jaqua19]

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

That's the mantra I'm going with. Joey and Co. delivered when it mattered. No slight towards them. He's a good enough driver with a good enough team behind him that I think they'd adjust accordingly if The Chase came back or if we actually got full season points again.

My thing is either one of those would be a bit more satisfying as opposed to seeing a team be behind the eight ball for two-thirds of the season, then effectively win a championship off of two or three good races. Like I said, not a slight towards Joey, because it's happened before. 2015, 2016, 2020, 2023. 2015 or 2020 have got to be the most egregious examples. I was never a Happy Harvick guy, but holy wow he got hosed more than once with this format.

This year is pretty egregious as well. Larson won the most races, stages, laps lead, top 5s, and scored the most points the entire season despite missing a race. Based on points per race, if he didn't miss the 600, he would have clinched the championship after Martinsville.

And ultimately missed out because of a blown tire.

But that's the system. So it is what it is

 

[jaqua19]

37 points separated the top 4 drivers with only 5 points between 1st and 2nd. I can't see why with the close racing they have in Nascar these days that they can't have a simplistic points system that fans can figure on the fly, and the gerbils/media can find enough drama in that. Bell and Larson were neck and neck almost all season.

If Larson didn't skip the 600, based on average points scored, he would have won by like 36 or something. Not really close, but the battle for second certainly would be.

 

[DIDIT]

View attachment 81525

I think you're right that it's irrelevant as far as the result this year but man does it spell out everything wring with this format for me. Our champ had an average finish of 17.1? What a title battle it would have been between Bell and Elliott.

Not sure I understand the logic of comparing the current point system with a previous point system. Today all teams play by and focus on the rules that will get them to the championship. Penske has figured out they need to peak at season's end and just focus on getting into the playoffs. This is radically different than where every point matters from race 1 by accumulating race points, winning a pole and leading a race. We have seen teams take quite conservative positions during both the regular season and playoffs by not pushing for the win, but happy to ride around safely in 15th position with an eye on one or two of their competitors.
The "game" today is radically different, do people think that if we went back to the old points system Penske (Blaney & Logano) would have finished 6th and 11th overall? I don't.

 

[StandOnIt]

Gordon says they have extracted about all they can out of their Chevy cars.

 

[ToyYoda]

The wild cards were added so they cold try to get Jr in the playoffs.

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Yep, Jr and Gordon missed it in ‘05 and defending champ Tony Stewart missed in ‘06, hence the expansion to 12 drivers.

The “wild cards” weren’t put into place until 2011 though. 2007-10 was just Top 12 in points after 26 races.

 

[Chase Fan 79]

Not sure I understand the logic of comparing the current point system with a previous point system. Today all teams play by and focus on the rules that will get them to the championship. Penske has figured out they need to peak at season's end and just focus on getting into the playoffs. This is radically different than where every point matters from race 1 by accumulating race points, winning a pole and leading a race. We have seen teams take quite conservative positions during both the regular season and playoffs by not pushing for the win, but happy to ride around safely in 15th position with an eye on one or two of their competitors.
The "game" today is radically different, do people think that if we went back to the old points system Penske (Blaney & Logano) would have finished 6th and 11th overall? I don't.

I don't think you are wrong and again - I give a ton of credit to Logano and Team Penske for what they figured out to win 3 titles in a row. I think getting an idea of what the old points may have looked like give good food for thought though. It all comes down to what fans want. The question remains - Do we really think what Joey Logano did this season with an average finish of 17.1 represents what a championship season is? I personally don't think so and think seeing these points sheds light to that. I get it though - if the system was different than Joey may have run his season differently and his numbers be better. Regardless of those possibilities, I just don't think this format produces a worthy championship season. If you are about wins then Larson should be the champ. If you are all about consistency then Elliott should be. Instead though we get one that was neither and only got hot when it mattered. If that's your cup of tea I am happy for you. Also - I totally understand the argument that we can play the "what if" game all year and at the end of the day this was the format which is why I say credit to them. I am just making the point that I hope the format changes now.

 

[pjmolo]

Gordon says they have extracted about all they can out of their Chevy cars.

This is exactly why the Championship race needs to be rotated through different tracks each year.

As it is, Penske has Phoenix figured out and imho will continue to win provided they have a car in the Championship Four.

 

[BobbyFord]

So it can't shown they wouldn't have been removed under the old format. If that can't be shown, it follows that the current format can't be shown to be responsible for smaller crowds. What has been shown is that attendance is down across the board for live sports.

NFL per-game attendance makes big jump

The average NFL crowd grew by 3.25% to 69,442 per game in 2022, the second-largest figure in the last 19 years, according to an SBJ analysis of published box score attendance.

www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

 

[Chase Fan 79]

I for one, like Joey just fine.

I don't like Joey but I have no issue with him winning. I hope we look back and see he exposed everything wrong with this system. This is not really rocket science to me. If NASCAR really wants to make it all about winning then just say whoever gets the most wins is the champ and then in the event of a tie the most second places among those with the most wins and so on. If you care ONLY about consistency then best average finish is the camp and in the event of a tie go to wins. I still think the answer though is year round points/stage points with wins getting 25 bonus points and the top 15 in points make the playoffs with one wild card for the most wins outside of the top 15 that ran all the races - Yes I am looking at you Kyle Larson. Then for the playoffs, total reset other than maybe giving the top 4 a first round bye and letting the other 12 battle for 8 spots in the round of 12. Once the round of 12 hits is game on total reset boys have at it.

 

[Team Penske]

I doubt Logano would have picked up a first title if he'd stayed at JGR. Square peg, round hole.

like Hamlin and Bell? Should I add Carl?

 

[Chase Fan 79]

This is exactly why the Championship race needs to be rotated through different tracks each year.

As it is, Penske has Phoenix figured out and imho will continue to win provided they have a car in the Championship Four.

Not trying to say I told you so but this is what I was trying to point out all year. These flat mile tracks (Phoenix and Loudon) are a place the Toyotas and Fords have found something the Chevys have not. I was at Loudon in-person and it was visible how much slower the Chevys were and you could hear the Toyotas getting back to the gas quicker.

 

[Team Penske]

Here is what I think happened. Penske experimented all season knowing what they needed for the playoffs and used their two best cars as testers. They planned for the championship while other teams raced for the wins all season long. HMS had the wrong car for this race ( playoffs) Brad isn't there yet but maybe next year. JGR seems to try for the Manufacture Championship and Xfinity as well. RCR is an xfinity team only and can't win with one of the top drivers. They do well with Hill though because he will screw his team mates if he can.

 

[Truex_rox]

I firmly believe 90% of people who "don't like the playoffs" just don't like Joey

Lol. My grandma used to loathe him when she watched the races with me and the others. Then she grew a bit soft on him after a while.

He’s still not among my favorites, but maybe I can be neutral or put him on the slightly good side of my list. At this point, he’s gaming the system until NASCAR changes the format and I’m here for it.

 

[SlicedBread22]

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!

Honestly though.. I have way more fun watching the cut off races. I enjoy when the drivers go harder for stage wins and stage points. I like the idea of a team having to step up when it really matters. I like that it requires damn near equal parts luck and skill. I like the way season long consistency is rewarded with an advantage in the playoffs that carries through from round to round.. and I like the game 7 moments a championship 4 race brings.. manufactured excitement or not ITS EXCITING!

My only issue with this format is that it can provoke race manipulation like we saw at Martinsville and other times in the past. I don't have an answer for this that works because I go straight to kick them from the sport but that opens up a whole other can of worms.

I'm curious what you guys thought was worse.. Kyle Busch missing a bunch of races and winning it.. or Joeys bad average finish this year?

To me they're both just as legitimate as Larson's or Truex's.

 

[aunty dive]

 

[Chase Fan 79]

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!

Honestly though.. I have way more fun watching the cut off races. I enjoy when the drivers go harder for stage wins and stage points. I like the idea of a team having to step up when it really matters. I like that it requires damn near equal parts luck and skill. I like the way season long consistency is rewarded with an advantage in the playoffs that carries through from round to round.. and I like the game 7 moments a championship 4 race brings.. manufactured excitement or not ITS EXCITING!

My only issue with this format is that it can provoke race manipulation like we saw at Martinsville and other times in the past. I don't have an answer for this that works because I go straight to kick them from the sport but that opens up a whole other can of worms.

I'm curious what you guys thought was worse.. Kyle Busch missing a bunch of races and winning it.. or Joeys bad average finish this year?

To me they're both just as legitimate as Larson's or Truex's.

Dude - Congrats and I am glad you enjoy it but this was way worse than KB. Injuries are out of the team's control so I was glad that it did not ruin his season. Chase showed last season that there is still a path to make it on points when you miss a ton of races as he missed 7 and still would have pointed in if not for some bad luck at the end of the regular season. I'm happy for Logano fans and I do agree that there is some excitement in cutoff races but an average finish of 17.1 is just not a championship season. I predict NASCAR will get rid of "win and you're in" but I still think that's only half the problem. Playoff points need to go too - At least for stage wins. Maybe just 5 for the race winner would be OK but I just don't like them at all really.

 

[SlicedBread22]

Dude - Congrats and I am glad you enjoy it but this was way worse than KB. Injuries are out of the team's control so I was glad that it did not ruin his season. Chase showed last season that there is still a path to make it on points when you miss a ton of races as he missed 7 and still would have pointed in if not for some bad luck at the end of the regular season. I'm happy for Logano fans and I do agree that there is some excitement in cutoff races but an average finish of 17.1 is just not a championship season. I predict NASCAR will get rid of "win and you're in" but I still think that's only half the problem. Playoff points need to go too - At least for stage wins. Maybe just 5 for the race winner would be OK but I just don't like them at all really.

17.1 is in fact a championship season in 2024 though.. it just happened lol.. they were slow for a while but you cannot deny he was faster in the second half of the season.. and then went on to win 3/10 playoff races.

I understand.. but I disagree that the results in february-june should matter when it comes to November.. that stuff matters when the playoffs start and the teams who did well are given a substantial advantage and then it is irrelevant.

Everyone wants to talk about Joeys average finish but nobody mentions DNFs or issues caused by other drivers.. everyone wants to talk about how great Larsons season was but nobody wants to talk about how he blew a huge points lead.. no instead let's just blame Joey for doing what needs to be done. It's nonsense.

I can get with taking away win and your in during the regular season (only) and letting the top 16 in.. but that's not the case right now and I just can't take anyone seriously that thinks Joey didn't run a championship season.

We know he had 4 wins as well as the all star win and almost won Richmond if not for the 3 being an idiot. That would be 6 wins... same as Larson.. but nope we're not gonna talk about that right? Nah let's just keep talking about how bad he ran in the spring

 

[Chase Fan 79]

17.1 is in fact a championship season in 2024 though.. it just happened lol.. they were slow for a while but you cannot deny he was faster in the second half of the season.. and then went on to win 3/10 playoff races.

I understand.. but I disagree that the results in february-june should matter when it comes to November.. that stuff matters when the playoffs start and the teams who did well are given a substantial advantage and then it is irrelevant.

Everyone wants to talk about Joeys average finish but nobody mentions DNFs or issues caused by other drivers.. everyone wants to talk about how great Larsons season was but nobody wants to talk about how he blew a huge points lead.. no instead let's just blame Joey for doing what needs to be done. It's nonsense.

I can get with taking away win and your in during the regular season (only) and letting the top 16 in.. but that's not the case right now and I just can't take anyone seriously that thinks Joey didn't run a championship season.

We know he had 4 wins as well as the all star win and almost won Richmond if not for the 3 being an idiot. That would be 6 wins... same as Larson.. but nope we're not gonna talk about that right? Nah let's just keep talking about how bad he ran in the spring

I find it interesting that you are playing the "if" card because that my friend is a giant double-edged sword. "If" Bowman had not been DQ'd this entire conversation is not happening because Joey does not even make the round of 8. "If" he does not get a lucky fuel mileage win at Vegas he likely is not in the final 4 either. You are basically trying to have your cake and eat it to by bringing up that Joey won 4 races and could have won more. If wins are that important to you than you should acknowledge that Larson is more deserving because bottom line is he "DID" have more and did not even make the final 4. You really can't make an argument about how many he lost of his own accord because if wins are all that matter to you then you should want that driver who will win or wreck trying to as Larson does. I personally don't but if wins are that are important to you as a fan then you should have no issue with it. Joey won a title not by doing anything other than gaming the format and more power to him and Penske for that since they have done it 3 years running. He won a title for winning the "right" races and that's just not a good thing IMO.

I don't think anyone is blaming Joey - to the contrary all I see are people saying that he is deserving because he went out and did what he had to do in this format. The reality though is that this format just produced a champion with some of the worst season statistics in the over 50 years. Yes we are looking at average finish which includes his DNF's because everyone's average finish includes either DNF's or bad finishes not of their making. I had to listen to people saying Chase was not performing all year and his average finish was almost SIX positions better PER RACE than the champ. Despite having only one win, I am damn proud of the season he had and find it to be a more impressive feat than getting hot at the end and winning the "right" races. I find it more impressive and enjoyable than his 2020 title honestly.

Like I said man - I am happy for you and any Logano fan and bottom line is that this title put him in rare company that I don't see anyone else from this generation getting to other than maybe Larson. Blaney and Elliott too if they can win a little more but 3 titles is remarkable. All that said, I do think average finish should mean something and we should have a format that leans toward the entire season meaning more. That's my opinion but based on what I am seeing, it's shared by many.

 

[dirtfan]

As the kids say - don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[28car]

Logano is only 34
With luck (or playing the game) 4 or 5 championships

 

[Whizzer]

Fact: Joey Logano won the 2024 NASCAR Championship under the current rules. How he performed, why he performed the way he did, whether luck played a role, all the posturing to say Joey sucked early on, whining and complaining about the rules or how the playoff is constructed, are little more than rationalizing, "my guy didn't win," anger.

Joey won fair and square and whether you like the playoff format or the "win and you're in," clause, it's over. Joey won. Race fans must admit he's a top driver. He finished first through effort. He proved his mettle. His winning car passed final inspection, Joey and Penske have the money and the trophy. The season is over and done with. They stepped up to the plate and performed when it counted. They didn't cheat and if they did, they didn't get caught. But, they won. Game over.

All you can hope for is a better result for your favorite driver next season.

 

[TexasRaceLady]

Fact: Joey Logano won the 2024 NASCAR Championship under the current rules. How he performed, why he performed the way he did, whether luck played a role, all the posturing to say Joey sucked early on, whining and complaining about the rules or how the playoff is constructed, are little more than rationalizing, "my guy didn't win," anger.

Joey won fair and square and whether you like the playoff format or the "win and you're in," clause, it's over. Joey won. Race fans must admit he's a top driver. He finished first through effort. He proved his mettle. His winning car passed final inspection, Joey and Penske have the money and the trophy. The season is over and done with. They stepped up to the plate and performed when it counted. They didn't cheat and if they did, they didn't get caught. But, they won. Game over.

All you can hope for is a better result for your favorite driver next season.

Bingo. Joey won under the current rules. All the rest is a dispute about trifles.

 

[MRM]

I could care less who wins it but to me playoffs don't work in motorsports because you have nonplayoff teams on the same field of competition with playoff teams.

Imagine watching last years super bowl between the chief's and eagles and a player from the packers runs on the field, blindsides Patrick Mahomes and takes him out of the super bowl. That's what this format has.

The completion of almost every single race championship has been dictated by something a non championship driver did.

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Great comparison.

 

[StandOnIt]

The completion of almost every single race championship has been dictated by something a non championship driver did.

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All three championship races this year weren't won by the strongest team all year. Majeski just squeaked into the Truck playoffs, Allgaier just had two race wins all year.

What I don't like is watching all year, watching teams if not dominate but at least show they are running better than almost everyone, and I know that is mostly meaningless unless they slog thru the playoff rounds and then after all that they have to win the 4 car lottery.

So really most of the season means nothing.

 

[Chase Fan 79]

Fact: Joey Logano won the 2024 NASCAR Championship under the current rules. How he performed, why he performed the way he did, whether luck played a role, all the posturing to say Joey sucked early on, whining and complaining about the rules or how the playoff is constructed, are little more than rationalizing, "my guy didn't win," anger.

Joey won fair and square and whether you like the playoff format or the "win and you're in," clause, it's over. Joey won. Race fans must admit he's a top driver. He finished first through effort. He proved his mettle. His winning car passed final inspection, Joey and Penske have the money and the trophy. The season is over and done with. They stepped up to the plate and performed when it counted. They didn't cheat and if they did, they didn't get caught. But, they won. Game over.

All you can hope for is a better result for your favorite driver next season.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Joey won and won fair and that he is a great driver. What people are questioning is does this format really produce a result where people can look and go = "Yes - That guy was the best this year." There have been controversial winners before like Terry Labonte over Jeff Gordon in 96 and DW over Bill Elliott in 85 where Gordon and Elliott were more dominant than Larson was this year by FAR and did not win. Titles like those are what contributed to change. I don't think anyone thought Terry or DW were not deserving but when Bill won 11 races in 85 to DW's 3 and Gordon won 10 to Terry's 2 a lot of people questioned if wins should be more important and here we are. The last straw was Kenseth in 2003 winning a title with 1 win. Ryan Newman won 8 that year and finished 6th. Now wins are TOO important IMO. I honestly don't think anyone is saying it because their driver lost. I don't personally think mine should have won even though he had the best average finish. I think we are all just questioning if NASCAR can do better. It's not whining at all - at least not for me. The format has changed many times over the years and it always changes for reasons. I am hoping it changes now because Team Penske has exposed that it can be played.

No matter how you feel, you can't point to Joey and say he did "_____" better than anyone this year other than win the right races and personally that is not what I want to see. I want to see both - a driver that puts a solid season together AND performs in the playoffs and we need a format to support that. At least in 85, 96, and 03 if people said the more dominant drivers should have won you can point to the remarkable season-long consistency of DW, Texas Terry or Matt Kenseth where you can't say that Joey had anything other than winning at the right time.

 

[virtualbalboa]

All three championship races this year weren't won by the strongest team all year. Majeski just squeaked into the Truck playoffs, Allgaier just had two race wins all year.

What I don't like is watching all year, watching teams if not dominate but at least show they are running better than almost everyone, and I know that is mostly meaningless unless they slog thru the playoff rounds and then after all that they have to win the 4 car lottery.

So really most of the season means nothing.

Yup, and it is for that reason they should expand what they're doing. NASCAR is getting a lot of attention and clearly they, along with the rest of the media, is poorly constructed for understanding what might be good or bad attention. I recommended expanding the playoff field and the final 4 to 5 earlier. Heck, why not just make it so that the top finishing playoff driver wins the "playoff race" within the regular race, and that person locks in? Anyone who isn't in a playoff spot who wins a race isn't anyone the series wants to have attention paid to, so give the TV networks a reason not to. It isn't like the winner of the race receives the most points either, so we already have effectively multiple winners being possible in the regular season. Extend that further. Then we can have arguments about whether or not winning races outright has been devalued. Think of the content!

 

[Charlie Spencer]

I could care less who wins it but to me playoffs don't work in motorsports because you have nonplayoff teams on the same field of competition with playoff teams.

Exactly.

Most stick-and-ball sports use playoffs because they have no choice. Only two teams are involved in each competition, and there aren't enough competitions in the season for each team to play all of the others enough times to be statistically significant.

Outside of drag racing, most motorsports series feature all teams competing against each other throughout the entirety of every race. Everyone faces everyone else, every time. There's no need for a playoff; the season's best team is easily measured against the others. Forcing a playoff with true eliminations (only those eligible are competing) results in field sizes that dwindle to the point no one wants to watch. Leaving everyone instead of removing them means ineligible teams are going to have an effect on the championship competitors, especially when the ineligible teams are still competing against each other.

I've been saying that for 20 years but I don't expect anything to change.

 

[Chase Fan 79]

Exactly.

Most stick-and-ball sports use playoffs because they have no choice. Only two teams are involved in each competition, and there aren't enough competitions in the season for each team to play all of the others enough times to be statistically significant.

Outside of drag racing, most motorsports series feature all teams competing against each other throughout the entirety of every race. Everyone faces everyone else, every time. There's no need for a playoff; the season's best team is easily measured against the others. Forcing a playoff with true eliminations (only those eligible are competing) results in field sizes that dwindle to the point no one wants to watch. Leaving everyone instead of removing them means ineligible teams are going to have an effect on the championship competitors, especially when the ineligible teams are still competing against each other.

I've been saying that for 20 years but I don't expect anything to change.

Are you saying you would go back to season long points with no playoffs? I want season long points and playoffs but that's just me.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

Are you saying you would go back to season long points with no playoffs? I want season long points and playoffs but that's just me.

In my ideal world, NASCAR would revert to a season-long points total, no playoffs, the same as most other motorsports. I'd change the points to award more for wins and top fives.

I could rattle off three or four playoff schemes I'd find more acceptable than the current one. None of them would come to be, so why bother? I've said repeatedly this month that I don't expect any meaningful changes.

 

[DIDIT]

I don't think anyone is disputing that Joey won and won fair and that he is a great driver. What people are questioning is does this format really produce a result where people can look and go = "Yes - That guy was the best this year." There have been controversial winners before like Terry Labonte over Jeff Gordon in 96 and DW over Bill Elliott in 85 where Gordon and Elliott were more dominant than Larson was this year by FAR and did not win. Titles like those are what contributed to change. I don't think anyone thought Terry or DW were not deserving but when Bill won 11 races in 85 to DW's 3 and Gordon won 10 to Terry's 2 a lot of people questioned if wins should be more important and here we are. The last straw was Kenseth in 2003 winning a title with 1 win. Ryan Newman won 8 that year and finished 6th. Now wins are TOO important IMO. I honestly don't think anyone is saying it because their driver lost. I don't personally think mine should have won even though he had the best average finish. I think we are all just questioning if NASCAR can do better. It's not whining at all - at least not for me. The format has changed many times over the years and it always changes for reasons. I am hoping it changes now because Team Penske has exposed that it can be played.

No matter how you feel, you can't point to Joey and say he did "_____" better than anyone this year other than win the right races and personally that is not what I want to see. I want to see both - a driver that puts a solid season together AND performs in the playoffs and we need a format to support that. At least in 85, 96, and 03 if people said the more dominant drivers should have won you can point to the remarkable season-long consistency of DW, Texas Terry or Matt Kenseth where you can't say that Joey had anything other than winning at the right time.

Now that the season is complete I am curious as to who and why you think “was the best this year “ and should have been the champion?

 

[SlicedBread22]

I find it interesting that you are playing the "if" card because that my friend is a giant double-edged sword. "If" Bowman had not been DQ'd this entire conversation is not happening because Joey does not even make the round of 8. "If" he does not get a lucky fuel mileage win at Vegas he likely is not in the final 4 either. You are basically trying to have your cake and eat it to by bringing up that Joey won 4 races and could have won more. If wins are that important to you than you should acknowledge that Larson is more deserving because bottom line is he "DID" have more and did not even make the final 4. You really can't make an argument about how many he lost of his own accord because if wins are all that matter to you then you should want that driver who will win or wreck trying to as Larson does. I personally don't but if wins are that are important to you as a fan then you should have no issue with it. Joey won a title not by doing anything other than gaming the format and more power to him and Penske for that since they have done it 3 years running. He won a title for winning the "right" races and that's just not a good thing IMO.

I don't think anyone is blaming Joey - to the contrary all I see are people saying that he is deserving because he went out and did what he had to do in this format. The reality though is that this format just produced a champion with some of the worst season statistics in the over 50 years. Yes we are looking at average finish which includes his DNF's because everyone's average finish includes either DNF's or bad finishes not of their making. I had to listen to people saying Chase was not performing all year and his average finish was almost SIX positions better PER RACE than the champ. Despite having only one win, I am damn proud of the season he had and find it to be a more impressive feat than getting hot at the end and winning the "right" races. I find it more impressive and enjoyable than his 2020 title honestly.

Like I said man - I am happy for you and any Logano fan and bottom line is that this title put him in rare company that I don't see anyone else from this generation getting to other than maybe Larson. Blaney and Elliott too if they can win a little more but 3 titles is remarkable. All that said, I do think average finish should mean something and we should have a format that leans toward the entire season meaning more. That's my opinion but based on what I am seeing, it's shared by many.

I was mainly pointing out that his season and speed aren't as bad as it seems. The numbers don't always tell the whole story which is why until that point I also had not mentioned Larson because thats not the point.

I think top 16 should be in on points and that's it.. once we hit playoffs then win and you move on. I feel that's a reasonable change that would help the fans accept the outcome... but even then, if someone barely gets in and then gets hot at the right time they shouldn't be scrutinized for it.

I know most won't admit it but I'm pretty sure a lot of the hate about it is because people don't like Joey. I believe if certain other drivers had the exact same situation play out or if Penske wasn't on their third consecutive title that people would celebrate them for it. Especially if it were a first time champion.

 

[StandOnIt]

In my ideal world, NASCAR would revert to a season-long points total, no playoffs, the same as most other motorsports. I'd change the points to award more for wins and top fives.

I could rattle off three or four playoff schemes I'd find more acceptable than the current one. None of them would come to be, so why bother? I've said repeatedly this month that I don't expect any meaningful changes.

So far all I am hearing is more band aids. They are talking about giving the regular season champion a bye to the other championship race. That's nutz. They could block others to help teammates, or a number of things with a free ride into the final 4 lottery.

 

[SlicedBread22]

What if every race win during the regular season is a "pass" through 1 race of the playoffs. Restructuring the playoffs so that the bottom finishing playoff driver without a "pass" each race is eliminated.

Just a quick thought.. idk if it's a good idea lol