Cup RACE thread --- Fontana
- Thread starter TexasRaceLady
- Start date
The Nature Boy
NASCAR needs a driver's union
Jimmie Johnson is a far superior driver to Kyle Busch and it's laughable that anyone would try to argue otherwise. You can only look at their stat lines to see that reality.
Rick Hendrick had Jimmie Johnson and Kyle Busch and decided to tell Kyle Busch "thank you next."
Rick Hendrick had Jimmie Johnson and Kyle Busch and decided to tell Kyle Busch "thank you next."
Nite nite
Yep, Cale Yarborogh lead every single lap of a 500 lap Bristol race in the mid seventies, so I guess he's the greatest ever, cause after all it was Bristol. And he won three titles in a row, 76,77,78, and he won at Bristol too, so....jusy sayin....
gnomesayin
Team Owner
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2013
- Messages
- 12,924
- Points
- 1,033
I'm amused by the cognitive dissonance of NASCAR bothering to latch on to the '200' narrative while they've been tightening the eligibility rules for years to essentially prohibit anyone from running these types of numbers up again.
I support NASCAR's change of approach to the two secondary national series. Kyle Busch's 147 wins in those series are an impressive feat and show his dedication to racing. He did nothing wrong in showing up to race as often as he was allowed. It's on the sanctioning body to make appropriate rules for the best of each series.
His 147 wins in those two divisions have nothing to do with anyone else's win total at the Cup level, or his own for that matter. Absolutely nothing.
I support NASCAR's change of approach to the two secondary national series. Kyle Busch's 147 wins in those series are an impressive feat and show his dedication to racing. He did nothing wrong in showing up to race as often as he was allowed. It's on the sanctioning body to make appropriate rules for the best of each series.
His 147 wins in those two divisions have nothing to do with anyone else's win total at the Cup level, or his own for that matter. Absolutely nothing.
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
D.W. won Bristol 7 times in a row, 12 times for a career..sweep what?
DaBiff1618
Team Owner
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2013
- Messages
- 3,590
- Points
- 443
This is literally the Rodgers-Brady debate personified. Jimmie is the goat like Brady is. However, Rodgers-Kyle Busch are the more talented individual. It takes more than just pure talent to be the goat. That said, Kyle is still smack dab in the middle of his prime so it’s pointless even having this debate till his career is winding down. He’s been an entirely different racecar driver ever since his injury at Daytona 2015. Since that point and time he’s been the best driver in Cup and it really hasn’t been close.
jaqua19
Team Owner
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2015
- Messages
- 11,876
- Points
- 883
That's the thing, Brady is the GOAT, the better NFL quarterback, more clutch, and a greater winner. if Kyle has more "raw talent" (Jimmie was damn good), that doesn't make him a better race driver prime to prime, cause he wasnt. Any advantage Kyle had was made up, and exceeded by Jimmie's "fifth gear", his ability to execute in the clutch, his confidence, and his aura/impact he had on the rest of the field. He was better at his job. But the more talented Kyle, as the best driver in NASCAR, was out won 3-0 in the 2016 playoffs against the past-his-prime GOAT..
That was a great opportunity. The best driver in NASCAR, defending champion, aiming for a feat only the greats have done..win consecutive championships. He has a chance. However, instead, the past-his-prime GOAT wins 3 of the last 10 races, and beats him out for his 7th title.
This is essentially the metaphorical comparison. Nothing Kyle Busch does in his career, nothing, can place him above Jimmie in the all time rankings. There's nothing he can do, unless he wins 8 titles. Not when he was out won by 25 races and out won 7-1 championships head to head over 11 years,and was beat out by the same driver when he had a chance to really establish himself as an all time driver by winning a 2nd title in a row.
His ceiling is just under
Johnson
Dale
Petty
Gordon
Pearson
He's a top 10 all time driver most likely. Don't understand why they can't just market him this way. A lot less people would complain, and people like myself, would root more for him.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
DaBiff1618
Team Owner
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2013
- Messages
- 3,590
- Points
- 443
Let’s see, Kyle is already 11th on the all time wins list lol. He is without a doubt a top 10 driver all time minimum. And I like how you leave out that Kyle has 11 more wins than JJ since he missed half the season in 2015. Since then JJ has 1 title, Busch has 1. Not to mention the regular season title last year. You literally are throwing all the superior stats Busch has since that injury because Jimmie restarted in a better line at the Homestead bowl. That’s way too much hyperbole for my taste. JJ is the goat as of now, but there are definitely ways Kyle can pass him and others. To deny such is to admit inherent bias on ones part. If Busch gets to 100 cup wins he has no argument? Yeah right
jaqua19
Team Owner
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2015
- Messages
- 11,876
- Points
- 883
I said he is a top 10 driver all time and his ceiling is 6th.
And you like how I left out....
What? I said "past his prime", which Jimmie is. Also, Jimmie has not won in almost 2 years. Again. Everything else I said is still the same
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
jaqua19
Team Owner
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2015
- Messages
- 11,876
- Points
- 883
And he is your favorite driver, and you want to speak of bias.
Again, my point is simple, Kyle was beat for 11 years, badly. Kyle has now out won a past his prime Jimmie who hasn't won in 2 years. You are attacking my logic instead of countering it, which, makes sense.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
DaBiff1618
Team Owner
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2013
- Messages
- 3,590
- Points
- 443
Dude I admitted jimmies the goat lol. But you’re not considering Kyle is just now entering his prime. Kyle was 20 his rookie season in the cup series, so half those seasons he was losing he was basically a kid. If Kyle keeps up the pace he has since 2015 he will be close to 100 Cup wins and likely have another title or two. Using your logic Kyle could win 8 titles and have 100+ cup wins but since he wasn’t racing Jimmie Johnson for those they don’t count.
This is the Fontana Cup race thread.
Didn’t see no 48 today.
Didn’t see no 48 today.
ChexOrWrex
Ya gotta wanna
- Joined
- May 19, 2013
- Messages
- 27,605
- Points
- 883
If Busch gets to 100 cups wins and doesnt have a minimum of 4 cup championships, he’d still be talked about as #5 behind Gordon/Johnson.
jaqua19
Team Owner
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2015
- Messages
- 11,876
- Points
- 883
That's my thing,he'd have to have such an outlandish resume to pass Jimmie due to the sole facts that they raced against each other
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
JBone88
Those that hate me look just like me
- Joined
- May 19, 2014
- Messages
- 3,868
- Points
- 743
Kyle Busch is 33 years old. Let’s revisit this topic in 10 years. He’s still got the second half of his career to go. 53 Cup wins at his age is quite the feat. There’s no question Kyle will go down as an all-time great. Why can’t that be the story?
NASCAR and the media trying to force the “200 wins” narrative reeks of a sport desperate for mainstream attention. A direct reflection of the modern sports short attention span audience who has to witness the “GOAT moment” in order to justify watching. No question Kyle’s 147 lower division wins mean something. The man clearly is a winning race car driver. However, I’m not going to put minor league wins against spares in the same light as winning 7 championships or anything of that nature.
Kyle needs to win more championships to be in the Earnhardt, Johnson and Gordon tier IMO.
NASCAR and the media trying to force the “200 wins” narrative reeks of a sport desperate for mainstream attention. A direct reflection of the modern sports short attention span audience who has to witness the “GOAT moment” in order to justify watching. No question Kyle’s 147 lower division wins mean something. The man clearly is a winning race car driver. However, I’m not going to put minor league wins against spares in the same light as winning 7 championships or anything of that nature.
Kyle needs to win more championships to be in the Earnhardt, Johnson and Gordon tier IMO.
The only way to rate a driver properly, is to give them a bad car, and see how they do. When you have a good car every weekend, you are not a GOOD driver. A good driver can take a bad car and at least get into the top 10-15, maybe more. Give the 18 a bad car, and you will see how he does. And I don’t mean a so-so car either.
Exactly, he does not have 200 wins in the cup series. He doesn’t even have 60. So nascar can shove the 200 wins up their........
ToyYoda
Team Owner
Check how he did in the Nationwide Series in 2012 with his own equipment.
Kiante
Team Owner
He did well in his own car in N'Wide, but Kurt actually fared better than Kyle that season. I remember Kurt was able to get that little bit more out of the car than Kyle.
They had split that ride between 17 races for Kyle, 16 for Kurt.
Kurt I think is better than Kyle in that aspect. He's able to get that bit more out of cars that are good and can make then better, at least IMHO. Kyle is great with his information as well, but I'm not here to **** on Kyle. He's earned every bit of his wins and I appreciate the hell out of contributions to the sport on and off-track.
ToyYoda
Team Owner
He did OK, but not nearly as well as he’s done in that series in JGR stuff.
He had 0 wins, 9 top-5’s, and 14 top-10’s in 22 starts in Nationwide that year, very uncharacteristic numbers for him in that series.
Kiante
Team Owner
Importance of money and resources.
ToyYoda
Team Owner
FWIW, Kyle had kind of a down year in Cup that year too....he only won once and didn’t make the Chase.
One new thing I noticed yesterday while listening to the 18 radio was how often the spotter reminded Kyle to grab any and all the draft he could when he came up on another car.
DaBiff1618
Team Owner
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2013
- Messages
- 3,590
- Points
- 443
Kyle had a down year in 2012 for sure. However, let’s not forget he ran out of fuel while leading on the final turn at Kansas and had other instances of bad luck that prevented him from getting a few wins. It’s not like he ran 15th every week lol. I also don’t think that negates his successes in Xfinity
Truex_rox
Wannabe racecar driver.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2017
- Messages
- 3,738
- Points
- 443
It's a tantalizing debate, as one driver appears to be plummeting, and the other is on the rise. Jimmie Johnson is one of my favorites, no question, and then Kyle Busch really isn't, but I find him likeable enough and love that there is still a NASCAR driver who loves racing so much that he gets into every event that he possibly can.
Jimmie probably has a few more wins left in him. One could argue he may even have one more title left in him, depending on how fast the Hendrick organization gets back in line. There is no debating his status as a great in this sport, and all he can do is strengthen his stature in the sport. There's no going down for him. He's done almost everything there is to be done.
Kyle has presumably got many years ahead of him, barring any unusual circumstances or a sudden Carl Edwards-style retirement. He should have won the title last year, as he won the regular season championship and won under the old format, but it obviously does not count. Right now, though, he is already looking to be in his final four form. I'd be amazed if he goes to the "Homestead Bowl" and loses out for the fourth year in a row. It's a matter of when he adds more titles to his resume, not if. His name will continue to come up in the elite division of NASCAR.
Jimmie probably has a few more wins left in him. One could argue he may even have one more title left in him, depending on how fast the Hendrick organization gets back in line. There is no debating his status as a great in this sport, and all he can do is strengthen his stature in the sport. There's no going down for him. He's done almost everything there is to be done.
Kyle has presumably got many years ahead of him, barring any unusual circumstances or a sudden Carl Edwards-style retirement. He should have won the title last year, as he won the regular season championship and won under the old format, but it obviously does not count. Right now, though, he is already looking to be in his final four form. I'd be amazed if he goes to the "Homestead Bowl" and loses out for the fourth year in a row. It's a matter of when he adds more titles to his resume, not if. His name will continue to come up in the elite division of NASCAR.
You cannot take half of anyone’s career and equate it to the other half. Kyle may win many more races. He may fall flat in two years. That’s what I do/don’t like about this sport
Dont care, it’s still not the same.
The press argues that Petty raced against many who weren’t in the same class. So?
I hate that they are changing the rules just to prop up another driver over another.
In my book, no one will ever beat Earnhardt.
Just watched the DVR, damn that was good. I’m glad there was some quality footage of those crazy passes by the 18 while he was coming up through the field after the speeding penalty.
ToyYoda
Team Owner
I guess you didn’t check because I was actually agreeing with you. My point was that the one year that Kyle ran Xfinity/NW in his own stuff, he didn’t do so hot.
Seen him win many with a 10th place toad. Also, lets give drivers and crews that make a toad a frog during a race a bit of credit.
The reason for the bad Nationwide season were fully explained, there was simply a lack of proper equipment to build the cars. The cars were toads
Buschhhhhhh Girls at ACS 
It’s not surprising that the top finishing Chevrolet was Kurt Busch.