Cup RACE thread --- Homestead

[Mispeedway15]

Agreed. He's "the best" right now, but he could be so much better. *puts on asbestos suit* I'd argue that the talent pool in NASCAR right now is a lot lower than the "glory days" when the legends were made. There's no Dale Sr or Jimmie Johnson in the sport right now. There is no gold standard to measure against. Sure there are some really really good ones (Logano, Harvick, Truex, etc) but those guys aren't JJ, prime Gordon, or Sr. Nowhere close. So to really be mentioned on the Mt Rushmore of racing with those guys, Larson should be dominating even more than he is. If he were racing those guys for titles, imho, he mentally cracks every time. That's why I'm sick of hearing about it. I respect the mad dirt skills, but I just dgaf. I'm not a dirt fan. It's like bragging about your favorite NFL player being awesome at Madden. Tangentially related sure, but worth nothing to their NFL career.

I apologize for not reading the whole thread before responding as I see some of my points are already being argued. I said what I said though.

This is one of the most ridiculous posts I’ve ever seen. Since joining Hendrick he’s went 10-3-4 wins.

 

[Greg]

I think Blaney wins today.
Byron points his way in to the final four and the fourth spot goes to the Martinsville winner.
Possible Toyota shutout.

This post didn't age well and I was expecting to be reminded by someone of the unfortunate prediction and that I sure as sheit got that one wrong.

But that didn't happen, so here is my behovement or acknowledgmemt.

 

[StandOnIt]

Here is Hamlin with the help of Moody doing his best reach around, look over here, trying to take the heat off of his own dumbassery.
Blaney didn't do anything wrong.

 

[StandOnIt]

Oh and by the way, dirt and non dirt fans? Larson and Brad sweet have bought themselves a dirt series from Tony Stewart. It's good for racing in general when some of the standouts in racing decide to participate in furthering the sport of racing

High Limit Sprint Car Series Acquires All Star Circuit of Champions​

The High Limit Sprint Car Series, owned by Kyle Larson and Brad Sweet, has finalized the acquisition of the All Star Circuit of Champions from Tony Stewart.​

 

[Efisher131]

Oh and by the way, dirt and non dirt fans? Larson and Brad sweet have bought themselves a dirt series from Tony Stewart. It's good for racing in general when some of the standouts in racing decide to participate in furthering the sport of racing

High Limit Sprint Car Series Acquires All Star Circuit of Champions​

The High Limit Sprint Car Series, owned by Kyle Larson and Brad Sweet, has finalized the acquisition of the All Star Circuit of Champions from Tony Stewart.​

This is really really exciting for sprint car fans. No doubt will increase exposure and purse money

 

[Nitro Dude]

Are you serious? I mean like really? Wow, you must really like him.

I was serious, but I was wrong because since the time I posted that I have heard one of larson’s interviews and he said after he hit Blaney’s right rear that is sent him straight into the barrels.

 

[Spotter22]

I can respect this. We somewhat disagree about the root of Larson’s problems but that’s how things go. I think Larson would have better stock car racing instincts if he were running CARS races or showing up at some local asphalt tracks. I also think closed cars are safer than sprint cars so his injury risk would be lower. If Larson were running four fendered car races during the week, he would be spanking the field on Sundays and closing races like a champ. He’s one of the best ever on raw talent, he just needs to improve his instincts.

For the record too, I don’t have an issue with open wheel racing. It just isn’t my thing. I like four fenders on my cars. Some of you (not you @jaqua19) need to take open wheel dirt racing off a pedestal.

Larson wouldn't learn a thing by running a CARS tour race. The guys and gals running that series are trying to get where Larson is now. Running a car with "4 fenders"? ( 2 fenders,2 Quarter panels) isn't gonna help him at all. Speed and Car control is what you learn by running Sprints.Midgets, Dirt Super Lates etc. Cars tour races run mostly half mile, 4/10 mile tracks in Cars with about 500 HP compared to a winged Sprint at 900.

What happened Sunday wasn't a mistake, he did exactly what he wanted to do, Aggressive pit road entry to make up the advantage the 12 had, unfortunately Blaney was on the opposite strategy and was having some issues on pit road and went a little more conservative.

 

[Naitch]

What happened Sunday wasn't a mistake, he did exactly what he wanted to do,

He wanted to smash into sand filled barrels?

 

[Charlie Spencer]

He wanted to smash into sand filled barrels?

He wanted to come to pit road as hot as possible to make up ground on Blaney. He didn't anticipate Blaney coming in at a slower pace.

We'll never know if Larson would have picked up a Denny Hamlin Honorary Speeding Penalty, but it sure looked like he was on the glide path for one.

 

[Spotter22]

He wanted to smash into sand filled barrels?

Why would you completely gloss over what I said? I didn't mention sand barrels, he made up the distance, his move and motive were correct

 

[virtualbalboa]

Larson doesn't just have the financial interests of co-owning a series and the emotional interest of growing up around dirt racing: there's a third thing. Pavement late model guys don't, by and large, move a lot of merchandise. I've seen more than my fair share of posts online saying things like "Dirt guys should get a different business model" re: merchandise sales from pavement late model teams that seem opposed to any sort of related commercial venture. Kyle himself has said that he's made more money in a single weekend at a dirt track than he has in an entire year in Cup in merch sales. For a lot of reasons, there's just not the same sort of activated fan base for that sort of racing. Watching the CARS Pro Late Model race from this weekend with an assortment of teenagers destroying equipment senselessly, I can see where there's not much interest in Larson going that route.

 

[Greg]

My overall view is that Larson drives on the edge most of the time and that is one of the reasons he wins so much. The downfall to that is it also will cause him to lose sometimes. The key is to accumulate more wins than losses and he seems to do that on a regular basis in any race car he drives. Like I said earlier, there is aggressive, and there is Larson aggressive.

Exactly

 

[StandOnIt]

Broke down on Race Hub

 

[Speedbowl14]

In defense of Larson these guys pit under green in Cup half the time of what they were before stages. And can't practice pitting under green during practice anymore.

 

[StandOnIt]

Blaney was running a different race then Larson was. If Blaney was busted for speeding with 50 laps to go, his race was pretty much over for the playoffs.

If Blaney can match his average finish of 6.7 at Martinsville this week, he pretty much shuts out the drivers below him under the cut line UNLESS one of them wins the race. He's in a pretty good spot.

 

[StandOnIt]

A R-F'er suggested that Larson should race in more "stock car" series like C.A.R.S, the youth series of the Bowman Grey style, to improve his skills and do less racing 410 sprint cars.

CARS Tour Issues Penalties For Incidents At Tri-County Motor Speedway - FloRacing

CARS Tour officials handed out multiple penalties following the incidents that took place during Saturday's Pro Late Model race at Tri-County Motor Speedway

www.floracing.com

 

[Efisher131]

A R-F'er suggested that Larson should race in more "stock car" series like C.A.R.S, the youth series of the Bowman Grey style, to improve his skills and do less racing 410 sprint cars.

CARS Tour Issues Penalties For Incidents At Tri-County Motor Speedway - FloRacing

CARS Tour officials handed out multiple penalties following the incidents that took place during Saturday's Pro Late Model race at Tri-County Motor Speedway

www.floracing.com

And people wonder why the new guys coming up run over everybody

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

A R-F'er suggested that Larson should race in more "stock car" series like C.A.R.S, the youth series of the Bowman Grey style, to improve his skills and do less racing 410 sprint cars.

CARS Tour Issues Penalties For Incidents At Tri-County Motor Speedway - FloRacing

CARS Tour officials handed out multiple penalties following the incidents that took place during Saturday's Pro Late Model race at Tri-County Motor Speedway

www.floracing.com

I have zero desire to see Larson at Bowman Gray. I agree in that he's just doing fine with what he's doing.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

A R-F'er suggested that Larson should race in more "stock car" series like C.A.R.S, the youth series of the Bowman Grey style, to improve his skills and do less racing 410 sprint cars.

CARS Tour Issues Penalties For Incidents At Tri-County Motor Speedway - FloRacing

CARS Tour officials handed out multiple penalties following the incidents that took place during Saturday's Pro Late Model race at Tri-County Motor Speedway

www.floracing.com

What's to learn? Doesn't he already know how to wreck someone?

 

[StandOnIt]

What's to learn? Doesn't he already know how to wreck someone?

Some think he needs more practice at it.

 

[virtualbalboa]

I have zero desire to see Larson at Bowman Gray. I agree in that he's just doing fine with what he's doing.

Too many pavement late model races wind up looking like Bowman Gray (the race in question was somewhere else too). The sad part is that everyone involved in those penalties is just a kid. Hettinger is 16 or 17: Boschele is 15 I think? You go back one week and Gio Ruggiero is hitting Stephen Nasse's dad with his car and then someone is knifing tires on haulers. It's honestly more than a little pathetic since almost all of this is being done by the parents. If I wanted to see that, I could just go to middle school travel soccer games.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

Too many pavement late model races wind up looking like Bowman Gray (the race in question was somewhere else too). The sad part is that everyone involved in those penalties is just a kid. Hettinger is 16 or 17: Boschele is 15 I think? You go back one week and Gio Ruggiero is hitting Stephen Nasse's dad with his car and then someone is knifing tires on haulers. It's honestly more than a little pathetic since almost all of this is being done by the parents. If I wanted to see that, I could just go to middle school travel soccer games.

My father would have grounded me or worse for pulling that kind of crap except that when I was 16 or 17, I'd already been taught not to. I pulled other crap, sure, but by that age I knew better than to intentionally damage people or property.

 

[StandOnIt]

My father would have grounded me or worse for pulling that kind of crap except that when I was 16 or 17, I'd already been taught not to. I pulled other crap, sure, but by that age I knew better than to intentionally damage people or property.

It's much like a certain party, circling the drain, locked on stupid. Who wants to compete in that series when it is so out of hand. They need to start barring people, but the problem is that they attract a certain type of fan that are there for the B.S. over the racing.

 

[Big John Kordic]

Don’t know if this was posted anywhere else, but I just saw Newman got a post race penalty from Homestead.

Someone could have offered me a million dollars…did Ryan Newman race at Homestead, yes or no? I would be out a million bucks.

 

[Mispeedway15]

A R-F'er suggested that Larson should race in more "stock car" series like C.A.R.S, the youth series of the Bowman Grey style, to improve his skills and do less racing 410 sprint cars.

CARS Tour Issues Penalties For Incidents At Tri-County Motor Speedway - FloRacing

CARS Tour officials handed out multiple penalties following the incidents that took place during Saturday's Pro Late Model race at Tri-County Motor Speedway

www.floracing.com

Late models are exciting, but it’s absolutely a ****show. WoO is a much more serious league for racers in every way

 

[StandOnIt]

Late models are exciting, but it’s absolutely a ****show. WoO is a much more serious league for racers in every way

Driving a 410 sprinter compared to a taxi cab in the cars series is the difference between walking and flying. Many fendered dirt drivers wouldn't be caught dead in an open wheel 410 sprint car, way too fast and dangerous. It's a much more serious form of racing. You have to have tons of car control and skill in keeping up with the track.

 

[virtualbalboa]

Late models are having a renaissance in large part because their purses are better than ARCA's and the equipment is transferrable between leagues/shows. That's really what it is. I mean, honestly, why bother racing in ARCA right now...heck, why bother racing for long in Trucks or Xfinity if you're actually good? Beyond learning how to draft in super speedway races, it's very expensive, the talent you're competing with is so-so and the damage bills seem astronomical. ARCA though is clearly a disaster with having an ARCA specific car that no one else uses for any professional series and nearly every race being 10K to win. Their desired draw is that "You can race Daytona" which in 2023 lacks the same appeal as in 1989 for a vast variety of reasons.

I could give a prediction about what I see happening imminently in NASCAR with their lower national divisions, but I realize that might come across as ridiculously negative while also being entirely speculatory and thus it isn't worth it.

 

[Greg]

Late models are having a renaissance in large part because their purses are better than ARCA's and the equipment is transferrable between leagues/shows. That's really what it is. I mean, honestly, why bother racing in ARCA right now...heck, why bother racing for long in Trucks or Xfinity if you're actually good? Beyond learning how to draft in super speedway races, it's very expensive, the talent you're competing with is so-so and the damage bills seem astronomical. ARCA though is clearly a disaster with having an ARCA specific car that no one else uses for any professional series and nearly every race being 10K to win. Their desired draw is that "You can race Daytona" which in 2023 lacks the same appeal as in 1989 for a vast variety of reasons.

I could give a prediction about what I see happening imminently in NASCAR with their lower national divisions, but I realize that might come across as ridiculously negative while also being entirely speculatory and thus it isn't worth it.

I love Late Models and the local short tracks.....I wish more of them were included into the Xfinty and Truck schedules.

But the why race Trucks and Xfinity reasons should make sense to anyone with dreams of racing a Cup car. You will get a bigger audience to show case your skills especially to Cup owners or next king makers.

It also will have you racing a large percentage of the current tracks and learning about them. It would be rare to see anyone going into Cup racing without going through the Xfinty or Truck series for a lot of good reasons.

 

[virtualbalboa]

But the why race Trucks and Xfinity reasons should make sense to anyone with dreams of racing a Cup car. You will get a bigger audience to show case your skills especially to Cup owners or next king makers.

It also will have you racing a large percentage of the current tracks and learning about them. It would be rare to see anyone going into Cup racing without going through the Xfinty or Truck series for a lot of good reasons.

I'll use Toyota here - If they want to see Jade Avedisian in a Cup car, and she tests and does well in ARCA in a few starts there, why put her through a year or two of Xfinity or Trucks? If she can get licensed to run a Cup car and you can get her in a Toyota seat, just move her up ASAP and let her learn on the job in Cup for Cup. Jesse Love isn't bothering with Trucks because "why" and "what's the point"? He'd just be racing the same exact people he was racing in late models and ARCA but for incrementally more money and exponentially more cost.

 

[Greg]

I'll use Toyota here - If they want to see Jade Avedisian in a Cup car, and she tests and does well in ARCA in a few starts there, why put her through a year or two of Xfinity or Trucks? If she can get licensed to run a Cup car and you can get her in a Toyota seat, just move her up ASAP and let her learn on the job in Cup for Cup. Jesse Love isn't bothering with Trucks because "why" and "what's the point"? He'd just be racing the same exact people he was racing in late models and ARCA but for incrementally more money and exponentially more cost.

I only see positives with Jade Avedisian (based on my limited knowledge, having never seen her race in person). I just think she would be better served to get a couple of seasons of more development, at least in the Xfinity series before attempting a Cup career.

She is young, and getting the experience will help her. I will realize there can be exceptions to almost every rule, but I do not think fast tracking was good for Joey Lagano or Danica Patrick, and I would hate for her to get derailed or have a failed effort

I know I mentioned Lagano already, but I think he is a great example of my intended point.
He got rushed in to replacing Tony Stewart at JGR and wasn't ready, and by the time he left them, some people were writing him off and thinking maybe Xfinity was his long-term ceiling.
I am not blaming JGR. I just think enough baggage had been accumulated to screw things up for him. I think the same scenario could have happened with another team as well.

Thankfully, he landed with Penske, but I think he went into that situation more prepared. It was a great transformation, and he has been one of the best Cup drivers around for at least the last ten years and has already established himself in my opinion to be a future first ballot HoF entry.

But I will stick by my original point that he had reached a point where some were giving up on him after originally being a disappointment at JGR. I dont want to see that happen to Jade Avedisian she has the potential to accomplish so much and hopefully it will materialize in time.

Last of all, I do want to reiterate that there is no absolute pathway to success in cup racing. I am just posting in my opinion, the most sensible pathway or the best way to set her up or anyone else for success.

 

[virtualbalboa]

I only see positives with Jade Avedisian (based on my limited knowledge, having never seen her race in person). I just think she would be better served to get a couple of seasons of more development, at least in the Xfinity series before attempting a Cup career.

She is young, and getting the experience will help her. I will realize there can be exceptions to almost every rule, but I do not think fast tracking was good for Joey Lagano or Danica Patrick, and I would hate for her to get derailed or have a failed effort

I know I mentioned Lagano already, but I think he is a great example of my intended point.
He got rushed in to replacing Tony Stewart at JGR and wasn't ready, and by the time he left them, some people were writing him off and thinking maybe Xfinity was his long-term ceiling.
I am not blaming JGR. I just think enough baggage had been accumulated to screw things up for him. I think the same scenario could have happened with another team as well.

Thankfully, he landed with Penske, but I think he went into that situation more prepared. It was a great transformation, and he has been one of the best Cup drivers around for at least the last ten years and has already established himself in my opinion to be a future first ballot HoF entry.

But I will stick by my original point that he had reached a point where some were giving up on him after originally being a disappointment at JGR. I dont want to see that happen to Jade Avedisian she has the potential to accomplish so much and hopefully it will materialize in time.

Last of all, I do want to reiterate that there is no absolute pathway to success in cup racing. I am just posting in my opinion, the most sensible pathway or the best way to set her up or anyone else for success.

Logano wound up going to an elite team after his time at JGR, so whether or not some fans thought he might have flopped, his stock was still plenty high within the garage. As for Danica Patrick, her DriverDB profile indicates that she won exactly one car race in her entire career. There is not a development pathway that was likely to ever make Danica Patrick a competitive NASCAR Cup driver. I don't want to spend my time being critical of her endlessly because some people do that and it's played out.

 

[Greg]

Logano wound up going to an elite team after his time at JGR, so whether or not some fans thought he might have flopped, his stock was still plenty high within the garage. As for Danica Patrick, her DriverDB profile indicates that she won exactly one car race in her entire career. There is not a development pathway that was likely to ever make Danica Patrick a competitive NASCAR Cup driver. I don't want to spend my time being critical of her endlessly because some people do that and it's played out.

Fair enough I don’t want to beat a dead horse either. Good discussion and I like different thoughts that isn’t consumed with being an echo chamber.

 

[virtualbalboa]

Fair enough I don’t want to beat a dead horse either. Good discussion and I like different thoughts that isn’t consumed with being an echo chamber.

When Max Verstappen went to F1, he went from European F3 (a regional F3 series that is not the same as the FIA F3 World title) directly into a Toro Rosso seat. It was the equivalent of going from ARCA East directly to Cup with a ride driving for Spire or something. Red Bull didn't see the point in putting him in a season of F3 or F2 because they already knew he was good enough and he wasn't going to learn any transferrable skills. That's where I'm going to leave this and you can surmise what I see as inevitable.