Cup Series Car Count

T

Tosu97

Guest
Been hearing and seeing from a few places that we may be down to 32-34 cup cars per race next year. Hell maybe even later this year. I was just wondering what some of your thoughts were on this?

My own: This is my doomsday scenario. I've been a die hard since the late 90's. I've put up with all the bull NASCAR has implemented. And this would be the final straw for me.

Some of you may not feel this is as serious as I do but this feels like a massive issue. Is NASCAR doing anything about this? Cost reduction? Anything? Are teams still not adjusting to the market downsize?
 
As slots open up what prevents small teams from fielding cars? For example some low budget team buying one car and entering it in the Daytona 500?
 
I suppose another question to ask is why are there usually full fields in Xfinity? I would bet it's probably cheaper to run in the Xfinity series but it has to pay out less too right?

If there were full fields in any of the three it should be cup series no?
 
If the field gets down to 32 cars, that means exactly 50% will make the "playoffs." Talk about watered down...

At least the Playoff Points system should eliminate most flukes from here on out. Truex, for example, could end up with 40 playoff points, which a huge cushion and one he's rightfully earned.
 
Playoffs aside.

Of all the stupidity NASCAR has shown...

Less fans, aero push, the chase, pay to play, no race back to the line, overtime, (literally almost everything else they've done)


This issue is the doomsday machine. I hate the chase and everything but I still enjoy the races themselves as individual events. But now we're only gonna have 32 cars? The on the track product is finally suffereing from all the off the track bull. I guess it was only a matter of time.
 
Ah, when they went with the charter deal, that about starved out the privateers. I've noticed they show up for the plate races. What it has done is opened up more competition in the lower series. Many cup teams are running multi car teams in Xfinity, I don't know if it will continue or not, but there was an increase this year.
 
Tosu97 said:
Been hearing and seeing from a few places that we may be down to 32-34 cup cars per race next year. Hell maybe even later this year. I was just wondering what some of your thoughts were on this?

My own: This is my doomsday scenario. I've been a die hard since the late 90's. I've put up with all the bull NASCAR has implemented. And this would be the final straw for me.

Some of you may not feel this is as serious as I do but this feels like a massive issue. Is NASCAR doing anything about this? Cost reduction? Anything? Are teams still not adjusting to the market downsize?
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hearing from who?
 
You sir would have loved the iroc series.


But there is a reason it no longer exists.

And if NASCAR continues down a certain path...
 
Simple Fan said:
Taking 4 to 6 cars that don't compete for wins anyway away isn't going to hurt the on track product all that much in my opinion.
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Yep, this ^^^^^ for sure.

While I hate to see the people that those teams support lose a job in the industry, a smaller car count will be unnoticeable. Television only manages to capture them on wide angle restart coverage or when one of them bring out the caution.
 
I've always been impressed seeing 43 cars start a race. And NASCAR has supported small teams by paying enough to make it worthwhile to try to qualify for the race; qualifying meant something to those trying to break into the sport - a throwback to the days that allowed anyone to participate. But the back markers became start and parks and really don't contribute to the race. I think a higher car/team count is healthy for the sport, I'd hate to see it drop down to F1 standards (10 teams, 20 cars).
 
Car count to me like DP said is pretty irrelevant. It wasn't a couple years ago the same ones were whining about the start and parks. Now there isn't enough..and Joe blow down the street said there will be 32..not to be confused with the drunk at the bar that says 34. on and on
 
StandOnIt said:
It wasn't a couple years ago the same ones were whining about the start and parks. Now there isn't enough.
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I think we, as NASCAR fans, are pretty uncertain what we want anymore. I think that's why we will never be satisfied. It's far easier to complain about everything then it is to distinguish good change from bad.
 
I remember those years of yesteryear when 50 cars showed up and 7 went home, There was a champs provision aka the ol' DW spot. Then the field was reduced from 43 to 40 and at Michigan 40 didn't show up so the field was just 37.
Move along looky loos, brain says nascrap is doing fine, don't pay any attention to the fat guy(s) behind the curtain...

look at car counts at your local track. When the sport trucks started at Seekonk we ran an a "A", "B" and consi to set a 24 car field. 40 teams. Now there's just 20 on the roster and many haven't run every race. Counts are down in all divisions. Sad.
 
If it were a competitive field of 40 or 43 that we were in danger of losing I'd be more concerned. Most of these teams towards the back...they're not much more to me than rolling chicanes or cautions waiting to happen. The level of depth in NASCAR isn't what it used to be so if some of these teams went away and funneled more money up to the Front Row, JTG Daugherty, Leavine Family entries then I'm okay with that. Of course, that isn't to say I'm opposed to cost-cutting measures to help lower the barriers to entry and make the bottom of the field more competitive. They just don't add a whole lot right now.
 
This might be hard for some newer fans to believe, but there once was a time when even the bottom feeders in a 43 car field had a chance to run up front. See for yourself, go look up the results from pretty much any NASCAR race from the 90s or early 2000s, more often than not you'll see a guy who was 25th in points or worse come home in the top 10. Yes, the weaker teams with less resources still had decent runs every now and then, shocking I know.

Why would any company want to sponsor Josh Wise or Reed Sorensen when they are guaranteed no better than 35th every week, and only a few seconds of TV time (when they are getting lapped)? The competition gap is wider than ever.
 
FLRacingFan said:
If it were a competitive field of 40 or 43 that we were in danger of losing I'd be more concerned. Most of these teams towards the back...they're not much more to me than rolling chicanes or cautions waiting to happen. The level of depth in NASCAR isn't what it used to be so if some of these teams went away and funneled more money up to the Front Row, JTG Daugherty, Leavine Family entries then I'm okay with that. Of course, that isn't to say I'm opposed to cost-cutting measures to help lower the barriers to entry and make the bottom of the field more competitive. They just don't add a whole lot right now.
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that depends on the year. Many years the leaders were lapping the field. Just a couple years ago it was common to have two or three start n parks, various past provisional champions running a few laps that nobody paid much attention to, some heckling. I seem to remember Bobby Labonte was a weekly whiny topic. He is racing in the euro series a bit now :p The charters are exactly doing the funneling of funds to the less competitive teams. If you don't have a charter, your prize money winnings are a third less than with a charter. But with anything else you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I won't be surprised if some charter teams fail..But others will take their places. rise and fall rise and fall.
 
Look I'm not pretending to know some concrete information.

I'm from Mooresville. I know quite a few people and neighbors who work in shops who seem to think that cup series entry lists will be around 32 or 34 cars on average next year and keep dropping in the years to come. This isn't inside information. This isn't made up. I'm not claiming that it will happen for sure. This is speculation but it's also something that I predict will happen. And I'm not alone in that prediction.

But think...

Looks to me like SHR is down to 2 or 3 cars next year.

BK racing is probably going to close down.

Sure we may get GMS but are they going to replace 3 cars all on their own? Probably no.

I could see the charters not even filling up. Big those charters still are valuable.


But back to my original question..

Is NASCAR doing anything for cost reduction? How could this problem be fixed?

And despite what some say... yes this is a problem. Where does it end?
 
Tosu97 said:
Look I'm not pretending to know some concrete information.

I'm from Mooresville. I know quite a few people and neighbors who work in shops who seem to think that cup series entry lists will be around 32 or 34 cars on average next year and keep dropping in the years to come. This isn't inside information. This isn't made up. I'm not claiming that it will happen for sure. This is speculation but it's also something that I predict will happen. And I'm not alone in that prediction.

But think...

Looks to me like SHR is down to 2 or 3 cars next year.

BK racing is probably going to close down.

Sure we may get GMS but are they going to replace 3 cars all on their own? Probably no.

I could see the charters not even filling up. Big those charters still are valuable.


But back to my original question..

Is NASCAR doing anything for cost reduction? How could this problem be fixed?

And despite what some say... yes this is a problem. Where does it end?
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The 5 minute clock this year is a recent change implemented by the RTA. It eliminated a whole crew and the crash cart that teams had to have to fix crash damage. Now the same pit crew that fuels the car has to fix crash damage. I believe Penske said that one change alone cut at least 200 thousand in expenses per year per car.
 
Right.

And while I'm not crazy about that rule beggars can't be choosers I suppose.

Hopefully there is more that can be done to reduce costs.

I really think the lack of competitors is the most pressing and urgent threat at the moment.
 
StandOnIt said:
Ah, when they went with the charter deal, that about starved out the privateers. I've noticed they show up for the plate races. What it has done is opened up more competition in the lower series. Many cup teams are running multi car teams in Xfinity, I don't know if it will continue or not, but there was an increase this year.
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The way I look at it the Cup teams with there big budgets and being able to run at cost made it impossible for any start up team and eventually ran off any single car teams. The same thing worked in cup and now we only have multi car teams. Soon those teams will shrink because they demand so much from the sponsors and can't sign new ones. The Charter was just another method of the big boys getting all the money and now no one can afford to even try a race unless they are paying bigger teams for a car.
Greed is the ultimate destroyer and it now controls Nascar.
 
Team Penske said:
The way I look at it the Cup teams with there big budgets and being able to run at cost made it impossible for any start up team and eventually ran off any single car teams. The same thing worked in cup and now we only have multi car teams. Soon those teams will shrink because they demand so much from the sponsors and can't sign new ones. The Charter was just another method of the big boys getting all the money and now no one can afford to even try a race unless they are paying bigger teams for a car.
Greed is the ultimate destroyer and it now controls Nascar.
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yeah that is your idea and some others, the empty bucket theory. but history has always proved different. Always going to be some filthy rich person wanting to get into racing..Boat, Horse, Car, or plane. Recently right in front of your face..Gene Haas..griping about losing 41 million in F-1..wants to get it down to about 20 a year..figures with the increase in sales he will break even. You have no idea how many dealerships Hendrick owns, or how many lease vehicles Penske owns.
 
In relation to that... why are there cars unsponsored at all? Look at Newman and Velveta. They asked for less money... they found a sponsor. Isn't that better than nothing?

How can xfinity cars, trucks, ARCA have sponsors at all if cup cars can't get them?

Is it just the simple fact that teams refuse to adjust with the market?

I'm not getting their supply and demand reasoning here...
 
Simple Fan said:
Taking 4 to 6 cars that don't compete for wins anyway away isn't going to hurt the on track product all that much in my opinion.
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It will in the sense that no new owners can enter the sport and eventually you will get what 4 big owners determine you will get. Any time you cut the ability of new car owners to enter and improve their product, you cheat yourself.
Here is a good example: The 78 car ran for a long time and never was a threat to anyone. Probably took home last place money quite often. Then they got a chance to have Kurt for a driver and found out they could get better if they had a decent driver,crew and gave that driver better cars. Still a single car team operating on their own far away from the hub of racing, they got a driver who didn't have that impressive a resume but showed he could win and was a veteran. They made some crew changes, hired an unknown Canadian CC and today they are leading the pack. They did this BEFORE
Toyota jumped in to help. That little 78 team using the same equipment as JGR is beating the pants off all Toyotas.

Do you still think those little back marker teams should be shut down and just add a couple cars to existing teams???????????
 
Tosu97 said:
In relation to that... why are there cars unsponsored at all? Look at Newman and Velveta. They asked for less money... they found a sponsor. Isn't that better than nothing?

How can xfinity cars, trucks, ARCA have sponsors at all if cup cars can't get them?

Is it just the simple fact that teams refuse to adjust with the market?

I'm not getting their supply and demand reasoning here...
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do you have any idea how much Richard Childress is worth? I haven't seen publicly how much sponsorship cost for any vehicle, some talking heads take a shot at it every once in a while..but special perks, going both ways, who knows but I bet they are all a bit different for both team owners and sponsors. Anyone who has been around racing for a minute knows how sponsorship works. Pointing out one deal and condemning the whole bunch is not only naive but pretty dumb.
 
All those things don't help racing. The charter system (costing no one any money) just makes sure most of the money goes to those teams.
Drivers council gives does give the divers a very small voice with out hanging anyone driver out for Nascar to fine.
Same thing for the RTA. The spoksman for them has an investment but no longer owns a team and this way the owners like the drivers can have a say without one single person having the wrath of Nascar brought down on them.
All those things don't do one thing to improve racing and IMO it makes it worse.
 
I'm not a rocket scientist. Or a cup car scientist... But I don't have to be to tell you this. NASCAR is in serious trouble and this is as good as indicator as any. First thing I do when I'm in a hole is quit digging...

We will end up like F1. To some of you that seems to be fine.
 
Tosu97 said:
In relation to that... why are there cars unsponsored at all? Look at Newman and Velveta. They asked for less money... they found a sponsor. Isn't that better than nothing?

How can xfinity cars, trucks, ARCA have sponsors at all if cup cars can't get them?

Is it just the simple fact that teams refuse to adjust with the market?

I'm not getting their supply and demand reasoning here...
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RCR decided that half a loaf is better than no loaf at all but SHR hasn't arrived at that conclusion yet. If a number close to 175K is what the market sets as the cost of being a primary sponsor then the teams will have to fire a lot of employees in order to try and bring costs in line.
 
Tosu97 said:
I'm not a rocket scientist. Or a cup car scientist... But I don't have to be to tell you this. NASCAR is in serious trouble and this is as good as indicator as any. First thing I do when I'm in a hole is quit digging...

We will end up like F1. To some of you that seems to be fine.
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It already is that way. Factory teams slugging it out. Good and bad privateers..Only thing... Nascar fans want passing and we get that.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
RCR decided that half a loaf is better than no loaf at all but SHR hasn't arrived at that conclusion yet. If a number close to 175K is what the market sets as the cost of being a primary sponsor then the teams will have to fire a lot of employees in order to try and bring costs in line.
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I don't like that term "fire." That is what you do when a person becomes undesirable. All employers have to ADJUST their work force from time to time just like GM is laying off a whole shift in a American plant because the car produced is not selling and it is cheaper to build cars in Mexico.
Many unions have destroyed union companies because of their excessive demands. Fire the Unions. :D
 
Team Penske said:
I don't like that term "fire." That is what you do when a person becomes undesirable. All employers have to ADJUST their work force from time to time just like GM is laying off a whole shift in a American plant because the car produced is not selling and it is cheaper to build cars in Mexico.
Many unions have destroyed union companies because of their excessive demands. Fire the Unions. :D
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Whether you're fired or "adjusted," the end result is still the same.
 
Tosu97 said:
I'm not a rocket scientist. Or a cup car scientist... But I don't have to be to tell you this. NASCAR is in serious trouble and this is as good as indicator as any. First thing I do when I'm in a hole is quit digging...

We will end up like F1. To some of you that seems to be fine.
Click to expand...

Nascar's elixir is young people and until they can figure out a way to entice young people to become fans they are spitting into the wind. When less than 10% of your audience is 18-34 and 65-70% is over 50 it doesn't take Pythagoras to understand that the current Nascar fan is aging out and dying off and are only being replaced by a fraction of young people.

Team Penske said:
I don't like that term "fire." That is what you do when a person becomes undesirable. All employers have to ADJUST their work force from time to time just like GM is laying off a whole shift in a American plant because the car produced is not selling and it is cheaper to build cars in Mexico.
Many unions have destroyed union companies because of their excessive demands. Fire the Unions. :D
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They can be fired, terminated, layed off, put on leave, made redundant or any other term but the bottom line is they no longer have gainful employment.

The Nature Boy said:
In the US, it varies by state.
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I know in some states if you are terminated you can receive UI but the process is a little different. The employer is notified that you have filed a claim and has a specified period to respond as to why UI should not be paid. If they do not respond or cannot provide sound reasoning for the termination UI benefits are paid.
 
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