Dale Jr. vs Steve Odonnell on Stenhouse Jr. Penalty

Towmater said:
And people wonder why NASCAR gets compared to the WWE? Inconsistent enforcement is one of the reasons. Calls like this one makes NASCAR officials look like the refs in WWE.
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I didn't see the race today but it sounds like most of the fans thought it was not a good one and that for the millionth time Nascar screwed up with enforcing the rules. The season hasn't even started and the fans are upset about some stupid graphic Fox uses plus boring racing and Nascar rules. Hopefully things will get better at Atlanta or it is going to be a long dull season.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Dale Earnhardt's death which had nothing to do with a yellow line.
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The accident had to with blocking a faster driver approaching on the inside. So it makes sense they would make a rule that encourages and rewards more of that.

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For real though, plate racing is a sh¡t show, always has been, always will be. NASCAR is in bind to make these things tenable, and there is legitimate reason why they don't want drivers diving to the apron to attempt desperate passes. As others have said, it is the laughably inconsistent enforcement of the ever evolving rule that is the biggest problem.

 
Tony used the line and got the win.
Carl tried the same move and became a flying piece of junk.
 
Stenhouse tried to make a hole were there wasn't one. KDB was down on the line. KDB kept fading right to catch a side draft from the top line and then he would dive down. Stenhouse fell for it. Like waving a red flag at a bull.

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StandOnIt said:
Stenhouse tried to make a hole were there wasn't one. KDB was down on the line. KDB kept fading right to catch a side draft from the top line and then he would dive down. Stenhouse fell for it. Like waving a red flag at a bull.

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That photo is zero justice.

The video clearly shows RSJ peeking under KB and KB forced him below the line with a block. The visual evidence is clear that if RSJ held his line to obey the line he would have hooked KB and sent him into the inside wall at 200mph.

Being forced, RSJ committed a legal move. NASCAR fudged the call.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
That photo is zero justice.

The video clearly shows RSJ peeking under KB and KB forced him below the line with a block. The visual evidence is clear that if RSJ held his line to obey the line he would have hooked KB and sent him into the inside wall at 200mph.

Being forced, RSJ committed a legal move. NASCAR fudged the call.
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That is an imaginary line there ..doesn't count right? :D Go ahead at rush hour tomorrow do that for a week and see where it gets ya.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
That photo is zero justice.

The video clearly shows RSJ peeking under KB and KB forced him below the line with a block. The visual evidence is clear that if RSJ held his line to obey the line he would have hooked KB and sent him into the inside wall at 200mph.

Being forced, RSJ committed a legal move. NASCAR fudged the call.
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I think if more guys are willing to wreck the field you may see the Tony-Carl-Kyle moves cease.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
That photo is zero justice.

The video clearly shows RSJ peeking under KB and KB forced him below the line with a block. The visual evidence is clear that if RSJ held his line to obey the line he would have hooked KB and sent him into the inside wall at 200mph.

Being forced, RSJ committed a legal move. NASCAR fudged the call.
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For sure as you have to see the video to have all the facts. A single picture is not helpful in this case.
 
StandOnIt said:
Carl tried to force Keselowski under the line, big difference. Blocking is legal like Tony did, forcing isn't
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The only meaningful difference between those two incidents is that Keselowski held his line and drove through Edwards, never getting close to the yellow line. whereas Smith swerved down below the line to avoid Stewart. Watch the replays again if needed. You're claiming an odd distinction without a difference re: blocking vs. forcing. Both Edwards and Stewart were trying to block to win the race, which is only natural. The NASCAR rules say nothing about "forcing" being illegal. They state that a "forced" driver won't be penalized for being forced below the yellow line.

JBone88 said:
:confused:
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Yes, much better that we only hear from learned scholars such as Steve O'Donnell on these subjects. Who is Dale Jr. to dare disagree?
 
gnomesayin said:
The only meaningful difference between those two incidents is that Keselowski held his line and drove through Edwards, never getting close to the yellow line. whereas Smith swerved down below the line to avoid Stewart. Watch the replays again if needed. You're claiming an odd distinction without a difference re: blocking vs. forcing. Both Edwards and Stewart were trying to block to win the race, which is only natural. The NASCAR rules say nothing about "forcing" being illegal. They state that a "forced" driver won't be penalized for being forced below the yellow line.



Yes, much better that we only hear from learned scholars such as Steve O'Donnell on these subjects. Who is Dale Jr. to dare disagree?
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making stuff up bud. Blocking is legal. forcing isn't. You can't legal pass under that double line for any reason. You don't know the difference. Nascar called it right. Go explain that bunch of whatever to them. KDB had the position. Stenhouse went out of bounds. He has to give the position back. He didn't That is what the rules say and that is what happened.
 
StandOnIt said:
making stuff up bud. Blocking is legal. forcing isn't.
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Ha, you're stating that "forcing" is illegal and used Edwards vs. Keselowski as an example and are accusing me of making stuff up. NASCAR didn't state that Edwards did anything illegal. They just didn't penalize Keselowski for driving right through his block. IMO the right call at the time, especially given the precedent they set with Stewart and Smith. What Keselowski did is the textbook version of what blocked drivers are encouraged to do under the current rules as enforced.

Today's incident with Stenhouse was a difficult close call, and there is subjective room for reasonable disagreement about it. Your opinion on it is valid, I can see why you view it that way while others don't. O'Donnell's statement that NASCAR enforcement of the rules is crystal clear is bunk, and Dale Jr.'s "clear as mud" response couldn't be more accurate.
 
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gnomesayin said:
Ha, you're stating that "forcing" is illegal and used Edwards vs. Keselowski as an example and are accusing me of making stuff up. NASCAR didn't state that Edwards did anything illegal.

Edwards and Smoke were both blocking. Regan was out of bounds. Keselowski was in bounds. Stenhouse was out of bounds. People make stuff up like they want it to be and don't know the rules. Double yellow line is like an imaginary wall, drivers can and do use it to block with on the plate tracks. Perfectly legal.
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I can actually agree with everything in your last explanation, and none of it refutes the notion that the rule as (selectively) enforced by NASCAR creates perverse incentives, such as the legal and best option for Smith was to stay in bounds and put Stewart in the catch fence, which Keselowski had figured out by the next year's race. Stenhouse learned the same lesson today as well.
 
Yes Steve-O, NASCAR has always been 100% clear and consistent about this.

2003:



2007:



Johnny Benson goes beneath the yellow line to pass Travis Kvapil for second at the finish. NASCAR takes no action, claiming “When drivers can see the checkered flag, you can get all you can get.”

Then Regan Smith in 2008 happens (as they can see the checkered flag) and it's a different song and dance. Now as of today, even if a driver is forced beneath the line, they can't advance position and must give the spot back. Guess what, Dale Jr. and Benson didn't do that in the above cases, obviously. I'm pretty sure I know who is "making stuff up", and it's none of us.
 
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There's nothing black & white about the Double Yellow Line rule. It can't be measured and it can't be weighed. It's a rule that's open to interpretation and that will always be an issue. One person see him forced below the line, the next doesn't. I've never liked the rule because of that. It's long outlived its need IMO and should be erased from its penciled in location in the illusive, unreleased to the public, NASCAR Rules Book.
 
Team Penske said:
I think if more guys are willing to wreck the field you may see the Tony-Carl-Kyle moves cease.
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No, you won't. Blocking moves have been used all types of tracks for as long as there's been racing. They've often resulted in wrecks. More wrecks aren't going to change driver behavior.
 
gnomesayin said:
Yes Steve-O, NASCAR has always been 100% clear and consistent about this.

2003:



2007:



Johnny Benson goes beneath the yellow line to pass Travis Kvapil for second at the finish. NASCAR takes no action, claiming “When drivers can see the checkered flag, you can get all you can get.”

Then Regan Smith in 2008 happens (as they can see the checkered flag) and it's a different song and dance. Now as of today, even if a driver is forced beneath the line, they can't advance position and must give the spot back. Guess what, Dale Jr. and Benson didn't do that in the above cases, obviously. I'm pretty sure I know who is "making stuff up", and it's none of us.
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10 years ago??? Come on man
 
StandOnIt said:
The other alternative is to have no line and then down the track where it narrows, go into that cluster at 200 plus
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There are more than two options here, but all the others require NASCAR and ISC to acknowledge the two tracks are no longer safe for the same cars that run without issue elsewhere on the circuit.
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
I didn't see the race today but it sounds like most of the fans thought it was not a good one and that for the millionth time Nascar screwed up with enforcing the rules. The season hasn't even started and the fans are upset about some stupid graphic Fox uses plus boring racing and Nascar rules. Hopefully things will get better at Atlanta or it is going to be a long dull season.
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The situation highlights an issue with NASCAR. When your consumers are confused as to why, and how a rule is enforced then the sports governing body has failed. That isn't a good thing. Football is going through that with what is and isn't a catch. They are going to address it in the off season again.
 
What if all the drivers would take Jeff Gordon's stance that @ChexOrWrex posted a few posts up? Post #73.

Say they all start deciding to hold their ground instead of moving below the line. If that were to happen, they may as well have a car crusher parked in the infield to finish the process. I think holding their ground would have far greater consequences than someone that passes down below that line. If you'r inside someone, you're inside someone. If someone comes down on you it seems ridiculous that you should be expected to back off giving the spot back. Let these guys race. It's already self policing.
 
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