Discontent with Nascar

[LewTheShoe]

For racing to be popular or relevant, it has always had two major strikes against it:

(a) Lack of a publicly funded youth-through-professional development infrastructure with taxpayers footing the bill at every step along the way, which is a massive benefit for the stick/ball sports.

(b) No home team for the crowds to rally around, which is how casual fans find it easy and natural to engage with their home team.

Despite these handicaps, racing has always had its place. It has always been that racing is embedded in the DNA of some percentage of people. In prior centuries, farmers raced their horses. In prior decades, our cars were fundamental, how they looked and more importantly how fast they were. It seemed to me that racing would always be important, even if not really mainstream. I still think that, but I'm less sure of it. Youth today is more turned on by the speed and performance of their cell phones.

This is not a Nascar trend. It is a motorsport trend. Nascar as an industry has certainly made some mistakes and blunders, but the mega-trends we are observing are mostly external to Nascar. We blame them all on Brian France, but that is mostly just a matter of convenience. The exact same things are happening in Europe and around the world.

So like Aunty said in an earlier post... On to Texas.

 

[Acs]

For racing to be popular or relevant, it has always had two major strikes against it:

(a) Lack of a publicly funded youth-through-professional development infrastructure with taxpayers footing the bill at every step along the way, which is a massive benefit for the stick/ball sports.

(b) No home team for the crowds to rally around, which is how casual fans find it easy and natural to engage with their home team.

Despite these handicaps, racing has always had its place. It has always been that racing is embedded in the DNA of some percentage of people. In prior centuries, farmers raced their horses. In prior decades, our cars were fundamental, how they looked and more importantly how fast they were. It seemed to me that racing would always be important, even if not really mainstream. I still think that, but I'm less sure of it. Youth today is more turned on by the speed and performance of their cell phones.

This is not a Nascar trend. It is a motorsport trend. Nascar as an industry has certainly made some mistakes and blunders, but the mega-trends we are observing are mostly external to Nascar. We blame them all on Brian France, but that is mostly just a matter of convenience. The exact same things are happening in Europe and around the world.

So like Aunty said in an earlier post... On to Texas.

Good post, we like to blame Brian France to no end but really the challenges facing motorsports and the auto industry in general just happen to particularly affect NASCAR.

I will say that it's not like NASCAR and those tied to the sport haven't known about issues a and b and have at least tried to do something about it. For a), remember how many times Humpy Wheeler and others have tried to better organize the nation's dirt-track and local racing leagues without success? Better uniformity, lower cost, and greater promotion of short-track racing series would doubtless go a long ways towards developing a better talent pipeline with greater grassroots support. For b), it's my understanding that historically NASCAR hasn't had hometown teams so much as manufacturer loyalty to engage it's fanbase. And yet, adding Toyota is cited as one of the main sources of discontent in the OP, despite the fact that Toyota has a huge customer base in the US.

 

[aunty dive]

^ ^^ 2 good posts on the money.

On given weekends when all the significant pro series are racing, the Cup cars are viewed by more North American fans than Xfinity, the Trucks, IndyCar, Formula 1 and the NHRA combined.

Viewership is in decline, but that's happening across the board. "Blame", if that's the right word, must be shared.

 

[LewTheShoe]

Viewership is in decline, but that's happening across the board. "Blame", if that's the right word, must be shared.

One national racing series that is bucking the trend is the British Superbike Championship, which has grown its live attendance and TV ratings. Various factors are cited, including astute promotion and administration, and the excitement of their Chase for the Championship (copied from Nascar)...

 

[4tires17gals]

we also need to address the running in circles stereotype

 

[gnomesayin]

On given weekends when all the significant pro series are racing, the Cup cars are viewed by more North American fans than Xfinity, the Trucks, IndyCar, Formula 1 and the NHRA combined.

True. But to me that is a strange way to stack the argument and remain defiant that there aren't problems specific to NASCAR's brand that are causing former fans to lose interest. Including the organization's own minor leagues in the comparison? My baseball team is the Kansas City Royals, and I guarantee nobody would ever boast that their ratings are higher than their AAA and AA afffiliates' combined. Of course they are. I can't see the relevance of citing Cup ratings as compared to Xfinity given how they are tied together and positioned.

Few would argue against the contention that American open wheel racing has been poorly managed for the past two decades. They came close to destroying a sport that was very much on par with NASCAR at one time, and it was far more than just external factors they couldn't control. I don't get the intense resistance to the idea that NASCAR's leadership is somewhat responsible for their own success or lack thereof. Brian France is not a scapegoat, just as his father and grandfather weren't lucky and along for the ride when NASCAR was on the rise.

For racing to be popular or relevant, it has always had two major strikes against it:

This is a very thoughtful and interesting post. However, the issues facing F1 and other motorsports in Europe and internationally are quite substantial but not the same. It's too much to get into, but the way they are structured is so different.

 

[aunty dive]

True. But to me that is a strange way to stack the argument and remain defiant that there aren't problems specific to NASCAR's brand that are causing former fans to lose interest. Including the organization's own minor leagues in the comparison? My baseball team is the Kansas City Royals, and I guarantee nobody would ever boast that their ratings are higher than their AAA and AA afffiliates' combined. Of course they are. I can't see the relevance of citing Cup ratings as compared to Xfinity given how they are tied together and positioned.

Few would argue against the contention that American open wheel racing has been poorly managed for the past two decades. They came close to destroying a sport that was very much on par with NASCAR at one time, and it was far more than just external factors they couldn't control. I don't get the intense resistance to the idea that NASCAR's leadership is somewhat responsible for their own success or lack thereof. Brian France is not a scapegoat, just as his father and grandfather weren't just lucky and along for the ride when NASCAR was on the rise.

I wasn't attempting to stack an argument. Neither do I "remain defiant" about anything. Boasting? Whose post did you read? I simply posted a fact intended to make the point that all forms of televised professional motorsport are in decline.

Each of them have problems unique to themselves and have other problems in common with each other. There are many threads in which to grind the axe ... I'm already sorry I bothered.

 

[gnomesayin]

I wasn't attempting to stack an argument. Neither do I "remain defiant" about anything. Boasting? Whose post did you read? I simply posted a fact intended to make the point that all forms of televised professional motorsport are in decline.

I guess it came across sharper than I intended, I was just offering what was meant to be a respectful rebuttal. I use pointed language to argue a point because I don't like to be wishy-washy.

 

[gnomesayin]

My real point is that all forms of motorsports have not been in decline during the same period. IndyCar interest, ratings, and attendance collapsed during a period that NASCAR was growing. Some open wheel fans blamed NASCAR for their misfortune. That was hooey. IndyCar ratings were up during 2015 and 2016. NHRA ratings are up, Supercross and Motocross are doing better numbers with good demos. It's just not true.

 

[aunty dive]

I guess it came across sharper than I intended, I was just offering what was meant to be a respectful rebuttal. I use pointed language to argue a point because I don't like to be wishy-washy.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[aunty dive]

My real point is that all forms of motorsports have not been in decline during the same period. IndyCar interest, ratings, and attendance collapsed during a period that NASCAR was growing. Some open wheel fans blamed NASCAR for their misfortune. That was hooey. IndyCar ratings were up during 2015 and 2016. NHRA ratings are up, Supercross and Motocross are doing better numbers with good demos. It's just not true.

I didn't suggest that they declined simultaneously and I agree that the open-wheelers are on the rise. If that continues, it won't be long until their viewership exceeds that of the Truck Series.

The fact remains that in the present, the Cup Series outdraws the combined numbers of the rest of them. I also agree that that can't continue.

 

[Team Penske]

I think part of the blame for the decline is the type of racing Nascar graduated to. By that I mean cars you and I drove on short tracks with a lot of physical contact. Large tracks were built for IRL and Nascar in their greed cut out short tracks and went to the 1.5 milers because their was more seating and a bigger infield all making more money for them. So now they are taking out the seats etc. but need to re conform these tracks to bring back short track style racing.

 

[dpkimmel2001]

My discontent with NASCAR solely revolves around the Chase and Brian's need for a Game #7 moment. There's something about the manufactured Game #7 moment that is a complete turnoff to this fan. I'll be tuning in to a true Game #7 moment tonight @ 8pm on FOX. One that occurred naturally by two teams that have fought hard against each other to propel them to the ultimate one game takes all scenario. Each game leading to tonight's finale was a battle for the teams to reach this moment. By contrast, the NASCAR system only requires mediocrity with a little luck or bad luck by others sprinkled in to reach it's Game #7 moment.

 

[LouieLouie]

My discontent with NASCAR solely revolves around the Chase and Brian's need for a Game #7 moment. There's something about the manufactured Game #7 moment that is a complete turnoff to this fan. I'll be tuning in to a true Game #7 moment tonight @ 8pm on FOX. One that occurred naturally by two teams that have fought hard against each other to propel them to the ultimate one game takes all scenario. Each game leading to tonight's finale was a battle for the teams to reach this moment. By contrast, the NASCAR system only requires mediocrity with a little luck or bad luck by others sprinkled in to reach it's Game #7 moment.

Would head to head matchups be preferred for the NASCAR playoffs? i.e in the round of 16, two teams are matched up against one another and whoever has the highest average finish after 3 races moves on to the round of 8? ditto for round of 8 to get into the round of 4, and then it would be 2 teams at Homestead?

It might be a little more what you are looking for but not sure that would be great to watch. Just throwing ideas out there. (I know you still hate the chase and would prefer to go back to no playoff.)

 

[dpkimmel2001]

Would head to head matchups be preferred for the NASCAR playoffs? i.e in the round of 16, two teams are matched up against one another and whoever has the highest average finish after 3 races moves on to the round of 8? ditto for round of 8 to get into the round of 4, and then it would be 2 teams at Homestead?

It might be a little more what you are looking for but not sure that would be great to watch. Just throwing ideas out there. (I know you still hate the chase and would prefer to go back to no playoff.)

Nope, no need to throw ideas out there. They had it correct from 1975-2003. A simple format that crowned the best overall driver/team for the entire season. The way it ought to be.

 

[Acs]

My discontent with NASCAR solely revolves around the Chase and Brian's need for a Game #7 moment. There's something about the manufactured Game #7 moment that is a complete turnoff to this fan. I'll be tuning in to a true Game #7 moment tonight @ 8pm on FOX. One that occurred naturally by two teams that have fought hard against each other to propel them to the ultimate one game takes all scenario. Each game leading to tonight's finale was a battle for the teams to reach this moment. By contrast, the NASCAR system only requires mediocrity with a little luck or bad luck by others sprinkled in to reach it's Game #7 moment.

I'm sure baseball fans in 1969 said the same thing about manufactured drama and luck-based champions and griped about being illegitimate and blah blah blah. Nobody cares now. The MLB playoffs are an established, uncontroversial part of that sport just like the chase will be in 50 years.

 

[dpkimmel2001]

I'm sure baseball fans in 1969 said the same thing about manufactured drama and luck-based champions and griped about being illegitimate and blah blah blah. Nobody cares now. The MLB playoffs are an established, uncontroversial part of that sport just like the chase will be in 50 years.

Only if there's anyone left that's still watching.

 

[NasNYG567]

The only gripe I have with NASCAR today is the lack of parity and how engineering has become most important. Even with that it's more entertaining than most anything else on television and nothing short of Brian France and Mike Helton mugging me will make me stop watching races.

 

[Skoalbandit33]

Would head to head matchups be preferred for the NASCAR playoffs? i.e in the round of 16, two teams are matched up against one another and whoever has the highest average finish after 3 races moves on to the round of 8? ditto for round of 8 to get into the round of 4, and then it would be 2 teams at Homestead?

It might be a little more what you are looking for but not sure that would be great to watch. Just throwing ideas out there. (I know you still hate the chase and would prefer to go back to no playoff.)

JMO but I think the last thing the average fan is looking for is anything that further takes the series away from its roots. Without scrapping the chase entirely I think the best thing to do do would be have a 26 race season that honors the classic system and crowns a champion. After that Nascar could have any type of goofy arrangement they wanted for the last 10 races and crown a playoff champ.

 

[Skoalbandit33]

I'm sure baseball fans in 1969 said the same thing about manufactured drama and luck-based champions and griped about being illegitimate and blah blah blah. Nobody cares now. The MLB playoffs are an established, uncontroversial part of that sport just like the chase will be in 50 years.

Back in 1969 I heard no baseball fans griping about adopting divisions within leagues as most felt with 20 teams it was overdo. There was more of an outrage in 1973 when the AL implemented the DH.

At the current rate Nascar is bleeding fans it is quite possible that less than a million people will be watching races in another 5-6 years in which case it will be completely irrelevant as essentially no one will be watching.

 

[be9ak7ts16]

NASCAR's decline started when traditions went by the wayside. Cookie cutter tracks made it a boring spectacle. Darlington losing a race was my straw that broke the camels back.

 

[Team Penske]

If they don't sign a title sponsor soon who is willing to pay a lot, then it really won't matter.
I am betting they can't sign anyone for more than 5 yrs right now.

 

[Roman Nodonyet]

The "mute point" for me is whenever Rick Allen opens his mouth

I like Rick Allen. My "mute point" is that waste of a set of vocal cords named Allen Bestwick.

 

[Matthew2470]

The main problem with NASCAR is the fans.

 

[Roman Nodonyet]

For racing to be popular or relevant, it has always had two major strikes against it:

(a) Lack of a publicly funded youth-through-professional development infrastructure with taxpayers footing the bill at every step along the way, which is a massive benefit for the stick/ball sports.

(b) No home team for the crowds to rally around, which is how casual fans find it easy and natural to engage with their home team.

Despite these handicaps, racing has always had its place. It has always been that racing is embedded in the DNA of some percentage of people. In prior centuries, farmers raced their horses. In prior decades, our cars were fundamental, how they looked and more importantly how fast they were. It seemed to me that racing would always be important, even if not really mainstream. I still think that, but I'm less sure of it. Youth today is more turned on by the speed and performance of their cell phones.

This is not a Nascar trend. It is a motorsport trend. Nascar as an industry has certainly made some mistakes and blunders, but the mega-trends we are observing are mostly external to Nascar. We blame them all on Brian France, but that is mostly just a matter of convenience. The exact same things are happening in Europe and around the world.

So like Aunty said in an earlier post... On to Texas.

Lew's not wrong. ESPN's "State of Motorsport" pieces from the start of this year noted that the only noteworthy series now growing are Supercross and similarly bite-sized formats. IndyCar is effectively stagnant, which given their long decline almost counts as progress. NASCAR's getting hosed in the US. F1 is getting hosed all around the world. Sports car racing certainly isn't gaining ground.

I also think Austin Wayne Self had a point when he proclaimed that NASCAR and racing in general are mis-selling their participants as athletes instead of daredevils. If you try to cram them into the same mold as stick-and-ball participants, you're gonna alienate everybody. That would be like death metal musicians trying to visually emulate blow-dried pop-rockers.

 

[dpkimmel2001]

Last night's World Series Game #7 moments have me frightened for NASCAR's future. If Brian was watching that broadcast who knows what he may have in store for the future of NASCAR? Try as he may, he'll never be able to duplicate the excitement level of last night's World Series game @ Homestead.

 

[Johali]

Last night's World Series Game #7 moments have me frightened for NASCAR's future. If Brian was watching that broadcast who knows what he may have in store for the future of NASCAR? Try as he may, he'll never be able to duplicate the excitement level of last night's World Series game @ Homestead.

 

[Old 97]

Back in the day Indy car was for the wine and cheese crowd and NASCAR was for the beer and hot dog crowd.
Indy lost a major portion of its viewership and NASCAR exploded!
Big Bill and Bill Jr. fit in with the beer and hot dog crowd, Brian is more wine and cheese.
Brian probably thinks that he has succeeded!
Once the last embarrassing redneck leaves the sport then he can invite his upity friends over!

 

[bigspud]

I like Rick Allen. My "mute point" is that waste of a set of vocal cords named Allen Bestwick.

i like rick allen too, when he talks it means the jb and sl arnt.

 

[Team Penske]

Last night's World Series Game #7 moments have me frightened for NASCAR's future. If Brian was watching that broadcast who knows what he may have in store for the future of NASCAR? Try as he may, he'll never be able to duplicate the excitement level of last night's World Series game @ Homestead.

Wouldn't surprise me if they stop the race on the back stretch and the drivers have to hit a baseball to the finish line.

 

[Skoalbandit33]

NASCAR's decline started when traditions went by the wayside. Cookie cutter tracks made it a boring spectacle. Darlington losing a race was my straw that broke the camels back.

I was infuriated when they did away with the Southern 500 as I had season tix for years and I also enjoyed the March Darlington event. For years I went to both MIS races, plus had season tix to the August Bristol race and then Darlington plus Talladega and sometimes the Brickyard. I am not saying I was the goose that laid the golden egg to Nascar but I was a good customer for many years.

I like Rick Allen. My "mute point" is that waste of a set of vocal cords named Allen Bestwick.

I have met Alan Bestwick and wouldn't throw him under one of my rear tires if I needed traction.

The main problem with NASCAR is the fans.

Actually the main problem for Nascar is the lack of fans. In 2002 the fall Martinsville race had 7 million viewers and this year had 2.7 million. Somewhere along the line 4.3 million people decided Nascar was not worth their time.

Lew's not wrong. ESPN's "State of Motorsport" pieces from the start of this year noted that the only noteworthy series now growing are Supercross and similarly bite-sized formats. IndyCar is effectively stagnant, which given their long decline almost counts as progress. NASCAR's getting hosed in the US. F1 is getting hosed all around the world. Sports car racing certainly isn't gaining ground.

I also think Austin Wayne Self had a point when he proclaimed that NASCAR and racing in general are mis-selling their participants as athletes instead of daredevils. If you try to cram them into the same mold as stick-and-ball participants, you're gonna alienate everybody. That would be like death metal musicians trying to visually emulate blow-dried pop-rockers.

IMO Nascar doesn't suffer from a lack of tax payer dollars and infrastructure as it did fine for many years without any such support. I think the major problem started when just about all the affordable used cars for kids were things like 4 cyl Nissan Pulsar's or similar vehicles. There isn't much you can do with a car like that to make it cool, sound cool or improve its performance that is affordable. In my day you may have started out in a Valiant with a slant 6 but in time you could go to the junkyard and get a V8 and install it with your buddies and you thought you had won the lottery. By the time you got some traction bars and jacked it up you were the king of the hill as you cruised the streets with you girlfriend snuggled right beside you on the vinyl bench seat. What is a kid going to do today? Go buy a 1991 Olds Ciera and make it cool?

The lack of having a home team does not ring true to me either as Nascar and motorsports are not asked to do what home teams do. For 41 regular season games per year the Chicago Blackhawks put 21,500 people in the stands of their arena but the race in Chicagoland is asked to put 50K in the stands twice a year. Even a small market team like the Pittsburgh Penguins put over 18,500 in the seats each night and play to over 100% capacity. The race in the Pocono's is asked to put 50K in the grandstands twice a year and can't do that despite being 90 minutes from NYC and Philly so there are literally millions of people that could easily attend races but simply have no interest. Is this because the races are poorly promoted? Don't offer the requisite bang for the buck? Traditional American motorsports are dying a slow and painful death? I dunno.

 

[Team Penske]

What is a kid going to do today? Go buy a 1991 Olds Ciera and make it cool?

Kids today are installing a throaty exhaust on a Mazda 3

 

[2 Sweet]

I think the major problem started when just about all the affordable used cars for kids were things like 4 cyl Nissan Pulsar's or similar vehicles. There isn't much you can do with a car like that to make it cool, sound cool or improve its performance that is affordable. In my day you may have started out in a Valiant with a slant 6 but in time you could go to the junkyard and get a V8 and install it with your buddies and you thought you had won the lottery. By the time you got some traction bars and jacked it up you were the king of the hill as you cruised the streets with you girlfriend snuggled right beside you on the vinyl bench seat. What is a kid going to do today? Go buy a 1991 Olds Ciera and make it cool?

My first car was a 1989 Chevy Celebrity. I made it cool. Well, kind of.

 

[Revman]

Actually the main problem for Nascar is the lack of fans. In 2002 the fall Martinsville race had 7 million viewers and this year had 2.7 million. Somewhere along the line 4.3 million people decided Nascar was not worth their time.

I think he meant "fans." (include quotes).

 

[Revman]

NASCAR's "Problems":
1) The cars are no longer the stars.
2) The drivers are the stars.
3) "Fans" root for one driver ...1in 40 chance of sporting happiness
4) The search for "good racing." Aka...I will know it when I see it, and if I don't the sport has the problem, not me.


IMO:
1) The cars are awesome. I would pay money to listen to one of my TRD engines idle. I mean that. I dream of attending test sessions.
2) My drivers are the faces of my manufacturer. They leave my manufacturer, they become the competition.
3) I root for five drivers which represents the smallest car count of the big players, yet I have five times the probability of sporting bliss. Imagine my
satisfaction if I was a Chevy guy.
4) Races like every sport are organic. Some suck. Some are great. Most of it is dependent upon the performance of your favorites. ALL races are worth the
time.

 

[2 Sweet]

NASCAR's "Problems":
1) The cars are no longer the stars.
2) The drivers are the stars.
3) "Fans" root for one driver ...1in 40 chance of sporting happiness
4) The search for "good racing." Aka...I will know it when I see it, and if I don't the sport has the problem, not me.

Who is saying any of these things?

The cars were never the stars until the Gen5 rolled out. The cars have gradually become more about machine than man. That old cliche, 'Dale Earnhardt could win with a 6th place car' had some truth to it. Nowadays, engineering trumps driver ability to a greater extent than years past. Your boy Carl Edwards is on record stating this several times over the years.

MOST fans are happy to watch a race, regardless of who wins. Obviously fans have guys they root for, and guys they root against. Is this really a problem for anyone? Did Richard Petty fans stop watching Nascar when he stopped winning?

Last but not least, if you can't recognize the difference between good and bad racing, I can't help you. But your condescending tone towards those who can has become as tiresome as the complaints you repeatedly see on here. If you think it can't be better, fine. Nostalgia aside, some of us would simply like to see the sport improve.

 

[ToyYoda]

I would pay money to listen to one of my TRD engines idle.

My buddy has an '08 Tacoma TRD Sport and could probably use some extra cash, I could give him a call and see if he'll start it up for you for a fair price.

 

[R Clarence]

Finished the mornin' tour 'n parked my 4Runner a couple minutes ago. She's still warm, fire right up.

 

[Skoalbandit33]

My first car was a 1989 Chevy Celebrity. I made it cool. Well, kind of.

Hopefully it had the 2.8 liter V6 or you hit the jackpot with a Eurosport model!

NASCAR's "Problems":
1) The cars are no longer the stars.
2) The drivers are the stars.
3) "Fans" root for one driver ...1in 40 chance of sporting happiness
4) The search for "good racing." Aka...I will know it when I see it, and if I don't the sport has the problem, not me.


IMO:
1) The cars are awesome. I would pay money to listen to one of my TRD engines idle. I mean that. I dream of attending test sessions.
2) My drivers are the faces of my manufacturer. They leave my manufacturer, they become the competition.
3) I root for five drivers which represents the smallest car count of the big players, yet I have five times the probability of sporting bliss. Imagine my
satisfaction if I was a Chevy guy.
4) Races like every sport are organic. Some suck. Some are great. Most of it is dependent upon the performance of your favorites. ALL races are worth the
time.

I started a thread about how we watch Nascar races a few days ago and was hoping you would participate seeing you are on record as saying most fans don't watch the series correctly.

Who is saying any of these things?

The cars were never the stars until the Gen5 rolled out. The cars have gradually become more about machine than man. That old cliche, 'Dale Earnhardt could win with a 6th place car' had some truth to it. Nowadays, engineering trumps driver ability to a greater extent than years past. Your boy Carl Edwards is on record stating this several times over the years.

MOST fans are happy to watch a race, regardless of who wins. Obviously fans have guys they root for, and guys they root against. Is this really a problem for anyone? Did Richard Petty fans stop watching Nascar when he stopped winning?

Last but not least, if you can't recognize the difference between good and bad racing, I can't help you. But your condescending tone towards those who can has become as tiresome as the complaints you repeatedly see on here. If you think it can't be better, fine. Nostalgia aside, some of us would simply like to see the sport improve.

I am with you as the quality of the race trumps everything for me and after a promising start to the year things went south fairly quickly.

My buddy has an '08 Tacoma TRD Sport and could probably use some extra cash, I could give him a call and see if he'll start it up for you for a fair price.

IDK if that would be advisable as poor Rev may drop dead from over excitement.