Dover Bonehead

  • Thread starter Captain Coyfish
  • Start date
Montoya spun his tires, his car might as well had been broke, it wouldnt go.
No outsmarting involved, he gotta a lucky break with the net result of inheriting a lead that he couldnt defend against another turtle.

JJ and Chad didnt respond well, they should have gave the spot back even if they disagreed, you cant negotiate a deal the black flag was still inevitable.
 
Greg said:
Montoya spun his tires, his car might as well had been broke, it wouldnt go.
No outsmarting involved, he gotta a lucky break with the net result of inheriting a lead that he couldnt defend against another turtle.

JJ and Chad didnt respond well, they should have gave the spot back even if they disagreed, you cant negotiate a deal the black flag was still inevitable.
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Montoya never went. Just look at the cars behind him and it's very clear than JJ was the only guy who went at the end of the box. Everyone else waited for the flagman, which is the rule when the leader runs thru the box. If Juan had gone AFTER the box and before the flag, he would have been in violation too, because he relinquished control of the restart by not going inside the box.

It's sad to listen to Sadler still whining about Indy when his teammate pushed him past the leader on a restart and he got flagged because he didn't give the spot back while his teammate did.
 
I can't believe how buttsore the #48 fans are about this. Ha, now they know how the rest of us feel when our drivers make mistakes. :XXROFL:
 
KevinWI said:
I can't believe how buttsore the #48 fans are about this. Ha, now they know how the rest of us feel when our drivers make mistakes. :XXROFL:
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What in the world do Jimmie fans have to be buttsore about? Jimmie consistently has the best car, the best organization, the best team, best crew chief and Is dominating the points. Everybody makes mistakes!
 
John c said:
What in the world do Jimmie fans have to be buttsore about? Jimmie consistently has the best car, the best organization, the best team, best crew chief and Is dominating the points. Everybody makes mistakes!
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Exactly, that's my point! Take it in stride! Your guy is still leading the points. Live to race another day.
 
John c said:
What in the world do Jimmie fans have to be buttsore about? Jimmie consistently has the best car, the best organization, the best team, best crew chief and Is dominating the points. Everybody makes mistakes!
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Sounds like someone needs a paper towel or tissue...;)
 
John c said:
Jimmie consistently has the best car, the best organization, the best team, best crew chief and Is dominating the points.
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Dominating in points? Well, not so much. While NASCAR likes to throw the number 30 up there as Double J's lead, he'll soon be relegated to a level of the common man once again after Richmond. As it stands now the dominate driver of the season would be sitting second to the driver he currently leads by 74 points. Something just seems wrong to me about that.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Dominating in points? Well, not so much. While NASCAR likes to throw the number 30 up there as Double J's lead, he'll soon be relegated to a level of the common man once again after Richmond. As it stands now the dominate driver of the season would be sitting second to the driver he currently leads by 74 points. Something just seems wrong to me about that.
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Behold, the Chase!
 
...and the fact is the Matt Kenseth has dominated in laps led by 100's of laps. If JGR gets some decent valve springs by the time The Chase gets here, I don't think JJ has a shot. JMO.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Dominating in points? Well, not so much. While NASCAR likes to throw the number 30 up there as Double J's lead, he'll soon be relegated to a level of the common man once again after Richmond. As it stands now the dominate driver of the season would be sitting second to the driver he currently leads by 74 points. Something just seems wrong to me about that.
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Yes dominating since the first race (FACT)! Now I will agree that can change and there are a few contenders out there that are very able, BUT...so far Jimmie is dominating and while he is I will bask in the joy. Lol!
 
BobbyFord said:
...and the fact is the Matt Kenseth has dominated in laps led by 100's of laps. If JGR gets some decent valve springs by the time The Chase gets here, I don't think JJ has a shot. JMO.
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They could always buy a Hendrix engine and copy their valve springs
:)
 
FenderBumper said:
I think the real problem are those heavy connecting rods nascar makes them use. :D
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Does anyone else wonder about the TRD underweight valve problem and the engine failure problem possibly being related . Is the engine just too lightweight overall ? Built for maximum speed and minimum durability ?
 
Generally, you want the reciprocating mass (lower end) to be as light as possible. It takes less power to rotate a lighter mass. The valvetrain is as light as possible while retaining as much durability as possible. I don't think the JGR engines are having valvetrain failures due to lightened parts, I think it's more of a geometry issue involving valve stem angle, rocker arm ratio, etc.
 
ted@economy said:
Does anyone else wonder about the TRD underweight valve problem and the engine failure problem possibly being related . Is the engine just too lightweight overall ? Built for maximum speed and minimum durability ?
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It's my opinion that there is something like that going on. Their cars are faster than them all and I think we can all agree it isn't because their drivers are above and beyond the rest of the field considering there is only 1 (yes 1) championship in the entire organization and that was 10 years ago (yes 10 years ago)! I believe there may be something fishy going on with that organization and I personally can't wait until it surfaces! Everybody kinda just let the whole "light rod" thing pass, but with one rod 3 grams under and another 3 grams over leaves a discrepancy of 6 grams. (Wow 6 grams) that's a huge discrepancy! Just ask John force how he feels about that? I think any back yard mechanic can tell you that is a no no unless their is an advantage of some sort! Just my ignorant opinion.
 
BobbyFord said:
Generally, you want the reciprocating mass (lower end) to be as light as possible. It takes less power to rotate a lighter mass. The valvetrain is as light as possible while retaining as much durability as possible. I don't think the JGR engines are having valvetrain failures due to lightened parts, I think it's more of a geometry issue involving valve stem angle, rocker arm ratio, etc.
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That might be why Kyle Busch said they can't fix it. They would need to redesign the engine, because the geometry is off. Got to remember Toyota hasn't ever made a pushrod engine. They tried to use their NASCAR truck engine they designed in cup, and Nascar wouldn't let them use it, so they had to build another engine. Probably if they used a more durable spring, they wouldn't be the fastest either. 17 engine failures is the result. I have seen too many drag races down the straight with the Toyota the clear winner, to think that it is the driver.o_O
 
I think the Fords are running the oldest engine, the FR-9 I think it is called. When it came out, they had an advantage for a while, they improved the cooling so they could run a smaller opening in the front, then Chevy did something and they were faster. I don't know if Toyota did anything, but the last couple of years they have been fast, but blowing up. Kyle lost a chase spot last year because of an engine failure. It seems to be getting worse instead of better. Having TRD located in California, is easier for the big wigs from Japan to get there, but it isn't helping cup teams located on the other coast any.
 
John c said:
...I think any back yard mechanic can tell you that is a no no unless their is an advantage of some sort! Just my ignorant opinion.
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The rod weighing 3 g's under was nothing more then a F-up by the engine builder. The is no performance advantage to having one rod lighter than the other 7 rods.
 
from jayski.

TRD focuses on durability of parts: Toyota Racing Development will introduce upgraded engine parts and make adjustments in power for Sunday's Sprint Cup race at Pocono Raceway to ensure durability moving forward. TRD had engine failures in the cars of contending drivers Matt Kenseth and Martin Truex Jr. last weekend at Dover International Speedway. That brought their total for the season to six, two more than the Ford engines and four more than the Chevrolet engines. TRD senior vice president David Wilson told ESPN.com on Tuesday that four of the failures -- including both at Dover and one the previous week at Charlotte -- were related to the valve train. "We probably pushed a little too hard and we need to put margin back into our engines," Wilson said by phone from TRD headquarters in Costa Mesa, Calif. "What we're doing and focusing on is durability. I have the entire group at TRD putting performance stuff on the backburner and focusing on nothing but durability.
 
well, TRD found what, two or three more engines that way, I think Boyer had one or two. Would have been interesting to see if it was the same rod in the same place. It could have been on the cylinder that keeps popping valve springs
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
from jayski.

TRD focuses on durability of parts: Toyota Racing Development will introduce upgraded engine parts and make adjustments in power for Sunday's Sprint Cup race at Pocono Raceway to ensure durability moving forward. TRD had engine failures in the cars of contending drivers Matt Kenseth and Martin Truex Jr. last weekend at Dover International Speedway. That brought their total for the season to six, two more than the Ford engines and four more than the Chevrolet engines. TRD senior vice president David Wilson told ESPN.com on Tuesday that four of the failures -- including both at Dover and one the previous week at Charlotte -- were related to the valve train. "We probably pushed a little too hard and we need to put margin back into our engines," Wilson said by phone from TRD headquarters in Costa Mesa, Calif. "What we're doing and focusing on is durability. I have the entire group at TRD putting performance stuff on the backburner and focusing on nothing but durability.
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that's a bunch of houey. six failures?
 
BobbyFord said:
The rod weighing 3 g's under was nothing more then a F-up by the engine builder. The is no performance advantage to having one rod lighter than the other 7 rods.
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I agree Bobby . My question is ..Does TRD build the lightest engine possible while trying to stay exactly to the minimum tolerances ? (Rather than sacrifice weight for durability ) . I wonder if you weighed a Ford ,a Chevy and a Toyota engine , if they would weigh the same .
 
It gets complicated, but one reason could be that they have one cylinder that is failing. they use a really weak spring, so the cam not only opens the valve, but the valve keep going deeper into the cylinder before the spring stops the valve. Gives the advantage of more duration for air/fuel to get into the cylinder, and on the other side, it opens longer to get it out. It is like having a bigger cam. downside is the piston can hit the valves if they are in there too far. So they use the lightest piston rod combo they can get away with..less stretching. If they have it isolated to only one cylinder that is causing the problem for whatever reason, not cooling as well or getting enough oil, they fudge a little on the weight, an even lighter piston, and valve, and rod? purely conjecture on my part, but they are dealing with really tight tolerances and they don't need much.
 
FLRacingFan said:
TRD only supplies engines to JGR and MWR. Some of the other Toyota failures have been from Triad, etc.
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Typical damage control..Sure not seeing the same thing happening with the Fords or Chevy's on any level. Guess we will see heads rolling at Triad next.o_O
 
BobbyFord said:
The rod weighing 3 g's under was nothing more then a F-up by the engine builder. The is no performance advantage to having one rod lighter than the other 7 rods.
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I think you might not have ALL the facts. Yes the rod that was 3 grams under is the one in question only because it was illegal. My point goes much deeper than that! Try to open your mind to the rod that was 3 grams overweight. Now try to consider the ones that were in between that 6 gram discrepancy. What professional "top notch" engine builder would build not only 1 engine like that not to mention 3? It is my opinion they are still building their engines with a 6 gram discrepancy, however they are now making the lightest rod right at the legal limit with the heaviest one being 6 grams over that, which in my little, acute mind throws their whimpering about intent out the window. They may not have intended to break the rules by 3 grams, but they sure as hell intended to gain an advantage!
 
BobbyFord said:
The rod issue and the valvetrain issue are two different issues.
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I forgot, yo daddy was your mechanic, you were the rider. o_O Lots of things can make a spring fail, the cam, pushrods, rocker arms, valve studs, the valve and it's keepers, piston/rod clearance, heat, geometry, and also the spring tension, or lack of it and the material it is made from. As you can see, it can be a pretty complicated problem. Not to mention the material everything is made from, thermal expansion values etc. WEIGHT.
 
The blown engines that are the worst are the Fords, because they aren't even fast enough to be blowing up. How could the mighty FR9, with it's cooling advantage, be performing so poorly?

I still see Penske FR9's coming online by next year, if not sooner.
 
John c said:
I think you might not have ALL the facts. Yes the rod that was 3 grams under is the one in question only because it was illegal. My point goes much deeper than that! Try to open your mind to the rod that was 3 grams overweight. Now try to consider the ones that were in between that 6 gram discrepancy. What professional "top notch" engine builder would build not only 1 engine like that not to mention 3? It is my opinion they are still building their engines with a 6 gram discrepancy, however they are now making the lightest rod right at the legal limit with the heaviest one being 6 grams over that, which in my little, acute mind throws their whimpering about intent out the window. They may not have intended to break the rules by 3 grams, but they sure as hell intended to gain an advantage!
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Nobody in their right mind would do that. There is ZERO performance advantage to having rods of varying weight. Somebody F'd up.
 
StandOnIt said:
I forgot, yo daddy was your mechanic, you were the rider. o_O Lots of things can make a spring fail, the cam, pushrods, rocker arms, valve studs, the valve and it's keepers, piston/rod clearance, heat, geometry, and also the spring tension, or lack of it and the material it is made from. As you can see, it can be a pretty complicated problem. Not to mention the material everything is made from, thermal expansion values etc. WEIGHT.
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I would bet a week's salary that a valve spring broke and allowed the valve to contact the piston. The cam is not going to cause one spring to fail :confused:
Like I said its likely coil bind, spring fatigue, etc. It's also a possibility that Matt over-revved the motor on a restart. Nobody will know unless JGR discloses which part actually failed and caused the DNF. Trust me, they know the cause.
 
BobbyFord said:
Nobody in their right mind would do that. There is ZERO performance advantage to having rods of varying weight. Somebody F'd up.
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As I've mentioned in previous posts (almost to a T of what you just said and more) it makes no sense to build an engine like that. It also makes no sense that an engine built with such a discrepancy would out preform it's rivals either. It also makes no sense that a MEGA BILLION $$$ company would make not only 1 mistake like that, but 3 "that we know of"! My point is that they are up to something and even maybe onto something that they are hiding. I don't think it was a mistake at all. As Paul Harvey would say...Stay tuned for the rest of the story!
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota and everyone else grinds parts to the lowest weight possible, and they just went too far with one.
 
BobbyFord said:
I would bet a week's salary that a valve spring broke and allowed the valve to contact the piston. The cam is not going to cause one spring to fail :confused:
Like I said its likely coil bind, spring fatigue, etc. It's also a possibility that Matt over-revved the motor on a restart. Nobody will know unless JGR discloses which part actually failed and caused the DNF. Trust me, they know the cause.
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I think at Daytona they were losing the lower end, I know Matt did because I was seeing the fluids and smoke coming out from under the car. now it is the upper end, hardly any fluids, just smoke out the tailpipe. And you are dead wrong about the cam, but it doesn't matter, you believe what you want. It can be just a simple matter of the spring? But I think not, way to simple to fix with a spring. Like they say a chain is as strong as it's weakest link..the spring is only a symptom of a bigger problem. I am betting they won't be top four qualifying this week.
 
Explain how a cam is going to break one valve spring and not affect the other 15...
FWIW, I've built hundreds of engines.
 
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