DW's GOAT

In my opinion, Jeff Gordon is better than Jimmie Johnson, and Johnson would only have 3 titles with the old system, and Gordon would have 6. I think Johnson is one of the best of all time, but how good would he be without Chad Knaus, Gordon has won with a least 5 different crew chiefs
 
Get That 88 Up There !! said:
In my opinion, Jeff Gordon is better than Jimmie Johnson, and Johnson would only have 3 titles with the old system, and Gordon would have 6. I think Johnson is one of the best of all time, but how good would he be without Chad Knaus, Gordon has won with a least 5 different crew chiefs
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5? Ray Evernham, Robby Loomis, Steve Letarte, Alan Gustufson...

I cant remember if he ever won with Whitesell in 1999.
 
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You were 7, maybe 8 in 1999 no wonder you can't remember.
You cannot compare drivers, or any athlete from different eras. Impossible. Was Rocky Marciano better than Mohammed Ali or Tyson? That's a argument that'll continue for decades.
If DW thinks he's the best that's his opinion and I don't agree.

Going to take weeks for DW's hickey on Gordon's butt to fade.:)
 
While I wont decide who is the greatest between Johnson and Gordon, I will say this; what I seen Sunday at Indy was but a glimps of Jeff Gordon during the first 10 or so years of his career. When he turned it on - which was most of the time - there was only one driver who could match him and we all know who that was.

Johnson is definitely one of the greats but to be able to hang with Gordon back then was something that I'm not sure Johnson could've done. I also don't know for sure that he couldn't have.
 
I think David Pearson is the best ever, but best of this generation is Jimmie hands down
 
Trying to figure out who the "GOAT" is, is just nearly impossible. My top few includes Petty, Earnhardt, Gordon, Pearson and Johnson. But hashing it out there, would be a bit more difficult. If the chase had never came along, I think Gordon would be fighting for 7 this year, which would give him a much stronger argument in the conversation. But "if" is one ugly word.
 
Gordon_Fan24 said:
Trying to figure out who the "GOAT" is, is just nearly impossible. My top few includes Petty, Earnhardt, Gordon, Pearson and Johnson. But hashing it out there, would be a bit more difficult. If the chase had never came along, I think Gordon would be fighting for 7 this year, which would give him a much stronger argument in the conversation. But "if" is one ugly word.
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Yep. With Petty's titles, his stiffest competition (Pearson) often ran part-time. IF Pearson points-raced...
 
jeff gordan fans take a deep breath with all the GOAT claims. The fact is jeff won most of his races in a relative few years. over half his wins came in 5 seasons. It was also in an era when certain drivers had a HUGE equipment advantage. Money could buy speed in those days. look at dale jr's wins and the time period they have come in. jeff gordan has really only been a factor in big rule changes years of late. '07 when both the COT and old car was run. and this year with the ride height change. There are more competitive teams and funding is less of a factor than it was when jeff won all those races.
 
As far as raw driving ability, I think Dale Sr. had more of it than Jimmie or Jeff. Dale could do things in a race car that almost seemed inhuman. He'd get my vote for GOAT.
 
Not taking anything away from Jimmie but Jeff was up against much stiffer competition. He put an end to the Dale Earnhardt era himself. He won countless races and championships against some truly great drivers. Not taking anything away from today's crop of talent but the fact that many of them were still competitive way past their prime against today's superstars. I'd say Jimmie Johnson and maybe Kevin Harvick would be the only drivers in this generation that would be able to compete with guys like Jeff Gordon, Dale Earnhardt, Mark Martin, Rusty Wallace and Dale Jarrett when they were at their prime.
 
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ToyYoda said:
As far as raw driving ability, I think Dale Sr. had more of it than Jimmie or Jeff. Dale could do things in a race car that almost seemed inhuman. He'd get my vote for GOAT.
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Jeff Gordon put a dead end to the Dale Earnhardt era. Earnhardt was completely dominant against some of the greatest drivers of all time right up until Gordon came along.
 
ToyYoda said:
As far as raw driving ability, I think Dale Sr. had more of it than Jimmie or Jeff. Dale could do things in a race car that almost seemed inhuman. He'd get my vote for GOAT.
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I dunno, don't underestimate Jimmie. It isn't all the car. There was some gif that one of the #48 fans around here had in his signature. It was in-car video of Johnson saving the car after it got hella loose at Phoenix. Johnson worked the wheel like magic. That was pure talent, Knaus' brain and the car had nothing to do with it.

Couldn't find the gif, but quote from Carl Edwards (who was behind him when he got loose) after the race:

"Anybody that says it's all (Johnson's) car and not his driving didn't see what I saw," Edwards said. "He did a pretty good job saving that."
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AndyMarquisLive said:
Jeff Gordon put a dead end to the Dale Earnhardt era. Earnhardt was completely dominant against some of the greatest drivers of all time right up until Gordon came along.
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Didn't happen right away though. Earnhardt did win two championships after Gordon entered the sport. And he was 44 years old by the time Gordon won his first in '95.
 
KevinWI said:
I dunno, don't underestimate Jimmie. It isn't all the car. There was some gif that one of the #48 fans around here had in his signature. It was in-car video of Johnson saving the car after it got hella loose at Phoenix. Johnson worked the wheel like magic. That was pure talent, Knaus' brain and the car had nothing to do with it.

Couldn't find the gif, but quote from Carl Edwards (who was behind him when he got loose) after the race:
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That and the time he kept it off the walls after spinning in qualifying at Dover. Stupid good.
 
interesting Earnhardt was older than Jeff is now and he was still going and a threat to win any race at 50, so I always wonder about all the retirement wank for Gordon. Probably have to listen to 5 or ten more years of it.
 
KevinWI said:
I dunno, don't underestimate Jimmie. It isn't all the car. There was some gif that one of the #48 fans around here had in his signature. It was in-car video of Johnson saving the car after it got hella loose at Phoenix. Johnson worked the wheel like magic. That was pure talent, Knaus' brain and the car had nothing to do with it.

Couldn't find the gif, but quote from Carl Edwards (who was behind him when he got loose) after the race:
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I've always said I don't think Jimmie gets enough credit for his driving ability. I'm not one of the "only because of Chad" guys. Jimmie's one of the greatest for sure.
 
ToyYoda said:
Didn't happen right away though. Earnhardt did win two championships after Gordon entered the sport. And he was 44 years old by the time Gordon won his first in '95.
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Exactly. It would have been nice to have seen these two drivers square off when they were both in their prime. Even so, they still matched up rather well for the generation difference during their head to head competitions. They faced off against each other in 258 races. Gordon certainly did win more races than Earnhardt during that time frame but like you said Earnhardt was in the later stages of his career.

Earnhardt vs Gordon.jpg
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Not taking anything away from Jimmie but Jeff was up against much stiffer competition. He put an end to the Dale Earnhardt era himself. He won countless races and championships against some truly great drivers. Not taking anything away from today's crop of talent but the fact that many of them were still competitive way past their prime against today's superstars. I'd say Jimmie Johnson and maybe Kevin Harvick would be the only drivers in this generation that would be able to compete with guys like Jeff Gordon, Dale Earnhardt, Mark Martin, Rusty Wallace and Dale Jarrett when they were at their prime.
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:rolleyes: Please you don't even believe that. Matt Kenseth, Kurt and Kyle Busch, Smoke, Brad K, etc. are as good if not better then the driving crop in the 90s. People just always want to use revisionist history to make things seem better then they actually were. Gordon thoroughly dominated during the 90s just as bad as Jimmie has today, only difference was there was no chase. But it's damn impressive winning 6 titles in a playoff system, not to mention he's on pace to pass Gordon in wins. Jimmie is the best ever just because of his resume
 
StandOnIt said:
interesting Earnhardt was older than Jeff is now and he was still going and a threat to win any race at 50, so I always wonder about all the retirement wank for Gordon. Probably have to listen to 5 or ten more years of it.
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Do you remember that bozo that said Gordon would get out of the car for Chase if Hendrick asked? Such a fundamental misunderstanding of Jeff Gordon. He's a nice guy ya ya, but he's one of the toughest competitors out there.
 
StandOnIt said:
interesting Earnhardt was older than Jeff is now and he was still going and a threat to win any race at 50, so I always wonder about all the retirement wank for Gordon. Probably have to listen to 5 or ten more years of it.
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He just might keep racing until Ella Gordon is ready to move up to Cup. :)
 
DaBiff1618 said:
:rolleyes: Please you don't even believe that. Matt Kenseth, Kurt and Kyle Busch, Smoke, Brad K, etc. are as good if not better then the driving crop in the 90s. People just always want to use revisionist history to make things seem better then they actually were. Gordon thoroughly dominated during the 90s just as bad as Jimmie has today, only difference was there was no chase. But it's damn impressive winning 6 titles in a playoff system, not to mention he's on pace to pass Gordon in wins. Jimmie is the best ever just because of his resume
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NASCAR racing isn't the same as it was 20 years ago. There was much harder racing, much better racing but the drivers were better. Because they had to manage their tires and because 500 miles was a real test of endurance for the car and driver.

Could you honestly see today's drivers running 500 laps at Rockingham and mixing it up at the end with Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon, Mark Martin and Rusty Wallace?

Like I said, Mark Martin was winning races against today's drivers at 50-years-old. Rusty Wallace was competitive when he retired. Dale Earnhardt was competitive at 49. Jeff Gordon is still competitive. And the races when those guys were in their prime were longer races, at tracks that were much more challenging, in cars that weren't as reliable, with tires that weren't rocks.

I just don't see Kyle Busch and Brad Keselowski being competitive in that era. Jimmie, Harv, Smoke and MAYBE Kenseth, sure.
 
ztevans said:
Yep. With Petty's titles, his stiffest competition (Pearson) often ran part-time. IF Pearson points-raced...
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I believe only 107 of Petty's wins came in races in which he competed against Pearson whereas Pearson had 97 of his wins come in races with Petty running. It definitely would've been different if Pearson was full-time more often.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
NASCAR racing isn't the same as it was 20 years ago. There was much harder racing, much better racing but the drivers were better. Because they had to manage their tires and because 500 miles was a real test of endurance for the car and driver.

Could you honestly see today's drivers running 500 laps at Rockingham and mixing it up at the end with Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon, Mark Martin and Rusty Wallace?

Like I said, Mark Martin was winning races against today's drivers at 50-years-old. Rusty Wallace was competitive when he retired. Dale Earnhardt was competitive at 49. Jeff Gordon is still competitive. And the races when those guys were in their prime were longer races, at tracks that were much more challenging, in cars that weren't as reliable, with tires that weren't rocks.

I just don't see Kyle Busch and Brad Keselowski being competitive in that era. Jimmie, Harv, Smoke and MAYBE Kenseth, sure.
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You forgetting this? Kez broke his ankle and came back next week and won the race. Kyle Busch is one of the best tire managers Nascar has. I don't know how many endless times I have watched him nurse his car around with low pressures until they came up and he went to the front, and how many times he has pitted to get two for track position.

080311-NASCAR-Brad-Keselowski-ankle-injury-G4_20110803154826648_600_400.JPG
 
StandOnIt said:
You forgetting this? Kez broke his ankle and came back next week and won the race. Kyle Busch is one of the best tire managers Nascar has. I don't know how many endless times I have watched him nurse his car around with low pressures until they came up and he went to the front, and how many times he has pitted to get two for track position.

080311-NASCAR-Brad-Keselowski-ankle-injury-G4_20110803154826648_600_400.JPG
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Not to mention these guys are the best at the drivers tracks (short tracks and road courses)
 
DaBiff1618 said:
I think David Pearson is the best ever, but best of this generation is Jimmie hands down
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I like the Pearson part but not the Jimmie part.
I think Jimmie has the best team chemistry of this era but he's not the best driver out there today. I don't think Jimmie is top 5 of drivers currently racing today in terms of sheer ability.
 
BobbyFord said:
I like the Pearson part but not the Jimmie part.
I think Jimmie has the best team chemistry of this era but he's not the best driver out there today. I don't think Jimmie is top 5 of drivers currently racing today in terms of sheer ability.
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Who's your top 5?
 
StandOnIt said:
You forgetting this? Kez broke his ankle and came back next week and won the race. Kyle Busch is one of the best tire managers Nascar has. I don't know how many endless times I have watched him nurse his car around with low pressures until they came up and he went to the front, and how many times he has pitted to get two for track position.
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It's too bad Bowyer had to spin late at Fontana this year because an awesome Jeff Gordon-Kyle Busch showdown was shaping up.
 
DaBiff1618 said:
:rolleyes: Please you don't even believe that. Matt Kenseth, Kurt and Kyle Busch, Smoke, Brad K, etc. are as good if not better then the driving crop in the 90s. People just always want to use revisionist history to make things seem better then they actually were. Gordon thoroughly dominated during the 90s just as bad as Jimmie has today, only difference was there was no chase. But it's damn impressive winning 6 titles in a playoff system, not to mention he's on pace to pass Gordon in wins. Jimmie is the best ever just because of his resume
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Gordon's late 90's dominance during the Evernham years was truly something. More than half of Gordon's career wins (47 of 90) came between 1995 and 1999. His most dominant days walked out the door with Evernham, he may be well into the 100's in wins now had they stayed together.
 
ToyYoda said:
As far as raw driving ability, I think Dale Sr. had more of it than Jimmie or Jeff. Dale could do things in a race car that almost seemed inhuman. He'd get my vote for GOAT.
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you mean like in use his bumper to move people out of his way
 
ToyYoda said:
Earnhardt did like to use the chrome horn, but a great driver nonetheless.
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i agree he was a good driver, but i didn't like how if he just caught up to a car, if they didn't move, he would move them. but i did like how he got more out of a car than any other driver could.
 
DaBiff1618 said:
I think David Pearson is the best ever, but best of this generation is Jimmie hands down
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I'd go with ya on that. I didn't see Pearson run, but the drivers in his era say he was always there at the end. Johnson has been spanking them all for a long time now.
 
I see DW still hasn't gotten over Petty's records coming in an era when 'it was easier to win and they raced 64 times a year'. lol

nascar never raced 64 points races, and raced more than 60 1 year, more than 50 5 years. 27 wins came with 48 starts, not 64. :rolleyes:

Is Jeff the best ever? Maybe, but only until JJ gets done.
 
Sorry I don't see kybu, kurt, kez, etc being anything 10 years from now.

We're talking longevity here. Multiple decades, points systems, generations of cars, etc.

That 24 is always towards the front.
 
StandOnIt said:
You forgetting this? Kez broke his ankle and came back next week and won the race. Kyle Busch is one of the best tire managers Nascar has. I don't know how many endless times I have watched him nurse his car around with low pressures until they came up and he went to the front, and how many times he has pitted to get two for track position.

080311-NASCAR-Brad-Keselowski-ankle-injury-G4_20110803154826648_600_400.JPG
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I'm not taking anything away from anyone, I'm merely saying there were some truly great drivers in Gordon's era... drivers that, in their 50s and 60s, would be good enough to win against the 20 and 30-somethings in Cup now.

Dale Earnhardt, Mark Martin, Rusty Wallace, Dale Jarrett, Ricky Rudd ... these were extraordinary drivers and none of them had anything for Gordon. And let's not forget that, at 50 years old, Mark Martin finished second in the championship to an at-his-prime Jimmie Johnson.
 
JEB said:
Sorry I don't see kybu, kurt, kez, etc being anything 10 years from now.

We're talking longevity here. Multiple decades, points systems, generations of cars, etc.

That 24 is always towards the front.
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I wouldn't go that far.
Gordon had a couple of years in the past decade where he was winless. He's also the current "Dale Sr." in the sport; the older guy that is still competitive. The sport has evolved quite a bit since Jeff came on the Cup scene in 1992.
It is difficult to compare the Cup Series, as it is now to how it was 20 years ago. Too much has changed.
 
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