DW's GOAT

AndyMarquisLive said:
I'm not taking anything away from anyone, I'm merely saying there were some truly great drivers in Gordon's era... drivers that, in their 50s and 60s, would be good enough to win against the 20 and 30-somethings in Cup now.

Dale Earnhardt, Mark Martin, Rusty Wallace, Dale Jarrett, Ricky Rudd ... these were extraordinary drivers and none of them had anything for Gordon. And let's not forget that, at 50 years old, Mark Martin finished second in the championship to an at-his-prime Jimmie Johnson.
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Rusty Wallace also still holds the 2nd-best average finish at short tracks in the Chase era - behind only Jeff Gordon.
 
who's tha goat nfl qb ?
prolly tha guy w/ great offensive line....wr's ....rb's ....... great defense......great coaches.....etc.
list goes on -n- on.

each driver mentioned here......had a super team he drove for.
put him in a p 5-10 competitor's car at tha time......stats would be totally different. he'd be listed as p 5-10 driver today !

great car / team makes a good driver appear great......not other way around !

anybody remember bill elliott's run away yr ? then later yrs. ?
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
And let's not forget that, at 50 years old, Mark Martin finished second in the championship to an at-his-prime Jimmie Johnson.
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Martin at 50 had a better year with Alan Gufastan, than a younger Gordon as well. In fact Gordon hasn't matched the same performance with Alan.

Dale was over 40 by the time they went head to head, and comparing the head to head means little. Bobby Allison is the oldest champ at 45, it should be easy enough to comprehend. Jeff started dominating Dale when he was approaching his 45th birthday.

On the other hand Jimmie started outperforming Jeff who was still in 30s on a routine basis.
They both drive from the same owner that distributes the parts well enough for one of his satilites (Stewart) to win a championship.

Jeff has more style than JJ, he can host SNL, do all the cool stuff, and he is probably
a better ambassador.
But strictly from a performance standpoint he had been inferior to Johnson.
 
I wouldn't say Sr had nothing for Gordon, by the time Jeff came along, Sr was in the latter stages of his career & he pushed Jeff hard for that 1995 championship that Sr easily could've won had a few mistakes during the season not happened most notably the last lap spin at Talladega when Morgan Shepherd got into him. Gordon only beat Sr by like 34 points in 1995 so he definitely had something for him. Jeff only beat Dale Jarrett by 14 points in 97, i'd say DJ had something for him that year as well. Gordon said once about why he was able to dominate during his early years that he drove with reckless abandon pretty much throwing the car into the turns every lap not thinking about what could've happened if he wrecked, it's an agressive fighter pilot mentality the kind that Maverick had before Goose got killed. Let's not forget to mention the impact that Ray Evernham had on Gordon's career. How many races & championships would Jeff had won if his crew chief wasn't Ray, his production dropped off significantly after Ray left? Ask the same question about Jimmie & Chad, ok yes Jimmie seems to be a really great driver but how much of that is Chad & how much of it is Jimmie? For sure Rusty Wallace & Ricky Rudd never had anything for Jeff Gordon, I think a really good example is the 99 Daytona 500. Rusty & his team driver dominated that race but when money time came, Gordon & Sr kicked him to the curb when Jeff made that kamikaze move to snag the lead, now who else would've tried that? Then on the pitlane right after the finish Jeff looked over at Rusty was just like HA, got ya again, did you really think you were gonna win, you can't beat me? You wanna talk about GOAT drivers, you mean to tell me that Darrell Waltrip raced against Richard Petty while Richard was still winning races & championships on a regular basis & he considers Gordon to be the best he's ever seen. You mean to tell me that Darrell raced against Dale Sr during his "One Tough Customer" Wrangler days & despite what anyone says about the black Goodwrench Chevy being intimidating trust me the Wrangler Chevy was much more feared than the Goodwrench car, Darrell still thinks Gordon is better? Darrell raced against David Pearson while he was still winning races & he still thinks Gordon is better? If a driver of this era had said that, i'd understand because all that driver would have to go on is todays competition but Darrell raced against some pretty strong & competitive drivers that won alot of races, I think he needs to re-evaluate his thoughts & spit them again. I mean honestly, 200 wins, 7 Daytona 500 victories & 7 season Championships is alot not to mention Richard has the record for the most runnerup points finishes. You take Sr's 34 wins at Daytona including what 6 Bud Shootouts, 5 str8 Goody's 300's & 10 str8 Gatorade Twin 125 victories to go with his 7 driving titles not to mention victory on Bristol's asphalt with no power steering. I mean i'm sorry but these guys are forever 1 & 2, even if Jimmie wins 7 or more driving titles he's still behind Richard & Sr & heck maybe even Pearson because who knows how many more races & championships he could've won had he ran fulltime his entire career.
 
Greg said:
Martin at 50 had a better year with Alan Gufastan, than a younger Gordon as well. In fact Gordon hasn't matched the same performance with Alan.

Dale was over 40 by the time they went head to head, and comparing the head to head means little. Bobby Allison is the oldest champ at 45, it should be easy enough to comprehend. Jeff started dominating Dale when he was approaching his 45th birthday.

On the other hand Jimmie started outperforming Jeff who was still in 30s on a routine basis.
They both drive from the same owner that distributes the parts well enough for one of his satilites (Stewart) to win a championship.

Jeff has more style than JJ, he can host SNL, do all the cool stuff, and he is probably
a better ambassador.
But strictly from a performance standpoint he had been inferior to Johnson.
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If you look at the Jimmie vs. Jeff head-to-head, it's pretty stacked in favor of Jimmie. Since Jimmie started full time in 2002, he has 69 wins to Gordon's 32, has finished ahead of Gordon in points every year except his rookie year, and has won more races than Gordon every season except 2002 and 2011.
 
I don't think Jimmie would have the level of success he's had if it weren't for Chad and the 48 team. I just don't think Jimmie is that good.
 
BobbyFord said:
I don't think Jimmie would have the level of success he's had if it weren't for Chad and the 48 team. I just don't think Jimmie is that good.
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I think Evernham and the #24 team blazed that trail for Knaus.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
You forgot the sarcasm smiley. ;)
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No sarcasm here. :)
Jimmie has been fast in one car only with one crew chief only.
IMO, Chad and the 48 team contribute greatly to JJ's success. Enough so, that I believe JJ wouldn't be nearly as successful with Chad and the 48 team.
 
BobbyFord said:
I don't think Jimmie would have the level of success he's had if it weren't for Chad and the 48 team. I just don't think Jimmie is that good.
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You could make the same argument for Gordon with Evernham though. Gordon won more races in the 6-1/2 years he was with Evernham than he has in the 15 years since he left. Gordon still remained a highly competitive driver since Ray left, even won a championship without him, but he's never been as dominant as he was during Evernham's tenure there. I think if Chad ever left Jimmie you'd see something similar. Jimmie wouldn't be as dominant, but still a highly competitive driver capable of winning a championship.
 
ToyYoda said:
You could make the same argument for Gordon with Evernham though. Gordon won more races in the 6-1/2 years he was with Evernham than he has in the 15 years since he left. Gordon still remained a highly competitive driver since Ray left, even won a championship without him, but he's never been as dominant as he was during Evernham's tenure there. I think if Chad ever left Jimmie you'd see something similar. Jimmie wouldn't be as dominant, but still a highly competitive driver capable of winning a championship.
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But we already know that Jeff can win without Ray. We don't know if JJ can win without Chad.
 
BobbyFord said:
No sarcasm here. :)
Jimmie has been fast in one car only with one crew chief only.
IMO, Chad and the 48 team contribute greatly to JJ's success. Enough so, that I believe JJ wouldn't be nearly as successful with Chad and the 48 team.
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There's no doubt that much of Jimmie's success is owed to Chad Knaus but at the same time much of Chad's success is owed to Jimmie. Chad Knaus, without Jimmie, has 35 other Cup races to his credit with one top 10 to show for it. These guys are a team and have created their own success. Chad being a great crew chief and Jimmie being a great driver. And believe me, that's hard for me to say. I don't care for either of those two guys. I think either of those two without the other wouldn't be nearly successful.
 
BobbyFord said:
No sarcasm here. :)
Jimmie has been fast in one car only with one crew chief only.
IMO, Chad and the 48 team contribute greatly to JJ's success. Enough so, that I believe JJ wouldn't be nearly as successful with Chad and the 48 team.
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Jimmie & Chad can also win a championship with Gordon's pit crew :mad:
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
There's no doubt that much of Jimmie's success is owed to Chad Knaus but at the same time much of Chad's success is owed to Jimmie. Chad Knaus, without Jimmie, has 35 other Cup races to his credit with one top 10 to show for it. These guys are a team and have created their own success. Chad being a great crew chief and Jimmie being a great driver. And believe me, that's hard for me to say. I don't care for either of those two guys. I think either of those two without the other wouldn't be nearly successful.
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I agree. IMO, neither would be as successful without the other. Which is why I've always said that chemistry is the key to the 48's success, not that JJ is such a superior driver.
For a moment, let's compare JJ to Tony Stewart. Does anyone think that JJ could leave HMS, start his own team and win the Cup two years later? I don't.
 
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I imagine that many of us here remember when Johnson came to cup, he was overly aggressive and when he wasn't bouncing off of another car he was in one wall or the other. Once he learned to take it as it comes and go for it when the time was right, he became what he is today.

While Knaus had something to do with that, I believe that it was Johnson himself that decided he was going to be a champion.
 
BobbyFord said:
For a moment, let's compare JJ to Tony Stewart. Does anyone think that JJ could leave HMS, start his own team and win the Cup two years later? I don't.
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Hard to say and it'd be nothing more than speculation but if I had to compare those two drivers and had the choice to hire Jimmie Johnson or Tony Stewart, I'd take Jimmie Johnson every time. That is unless Tony gives me free season tickets to Eldora. Then I may choose otherwise. ;)

It's really tough to compare ant of these drivers. They're stats are a result of their paring with their respective crew chiefs. What 'could be' under other circumstances will never be known.
 
These comparisons are fun, but it is almost impossible to render a clear verdict.
That is not a bad thing, wouldn't be as fun if it was simple.
 
#17D500winner said:
I imagine that many of us here remember when Johnson came to cup, he was overly aggressive and when he wasn't bouncing off of another car he was in one wall or the other. Once he learned to take it as it comes and go for it when the time was right, he became what he is today.

While Knaus had something to do with that, I believe that it was Johnson himself that decided he was going to be a champion.
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In Nationwide maybe but in Cup? He was immediately paired up with Chad during his first full season in Cup wining 3 races and finishing 5th in points. Not bad for a rookie.
 
I am of the belief that drivers today are better than they've ever been. Just as other sports have evolved, so has NASCAR and its drivers.

The parity in the sport makes it extremely difficult to win. On any given race weekend, there could be 15 cars capable of winning, if things fall their way. I'm not so sure that kind of parity existed in previous eras. Drivers like Petty, Earnhardt and even Gordon in the early years enjoyed huge mechanical or personnel advantages over the field. Look at what Evernham did for the modern pit stops, Gordon had a huge advantage over some of the other teams in that regard and that's not even considering the cars he had were so much better than most others.

One could make the argument that the cars are easier to drive today but the margin for error is almost non existent. The difference between 1st and 25th is less than a second. With that being said, the fact that Jimmie has been able to win so many races and titles with the competition being as close as it is, he is my vote.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
In Nationwide maybe but in Cup? He was immediately paired up with Chad during his first full season in Cup wining 3 races and finishing 5th in points. Not bad for a rookie.
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I know the stats but do you remember how many wrecks he caused ;)
 
#17D500winner said:
I know the stats but do you remember how many wrecks he caused ;)
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I do not. My memory isn't that good. I could easily look it up but to tell the truth I'm not that ambitious today. I'm pretty much just phoning it in. I'm probably guilty of a P1 infraction for not giving 100%.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I do not. My memory isn't that good. I could easily look it up but to tell the truth I'm not that ambitious today. I'm pretty much just phoning it in. I'm probably guilty of a P1 infraction for not giving 100%.
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LOL.

TRL, can we put this joker on probation until the end of the year? ;)
 
Richard Petty is the "OG", Old Guard, tried and true Stock car driver. He had the gift of finesse, now you see him, now you don't. Or he'd just lock bumpers and kindly move you out of the way, smile and wave while passing you by.

Dale E'hardt, probably didn't know what the word finesse meant but he didn't need too. He raced with passion, knowing that if he didn't win his family wouldn't eat, more of a pinball root you out the way cause I'm coming through and you ain't stopping me and you'll get the bird type of guy.

Jeffy Gor-Don, total finesse style both on and off the track, Everything is "awesome" When he is in his element, (this past Brickyard race) you can't catch him. not a great comeback guy like Old Man E'hardt, Dale I believe really wanted to hurt you metaphorically speaking and get in your head. Not Jeffy's style at all, just an all around good guy, would tip his hat while passing you by and whisper, "I'm sorry".

Jimmy Johnson, he comes from a sand background and if given enough time can figure out how to drive anything anywhere. Like we used to say, he could drive on top of the water if you'd let him try hard enough. Dude is cool under the collar as his mind is always seeking the fastest and shortest way around any track you lay before him. He just enjoys the ride and prides himself on total control in the ****pit, he'd truly stop and help you while passing by but the rules don't permit it.

Smoke, what can I say. He is the closest thing to a favorite driver I have ever had. Early in his career, he could will a bad car great, a great car unbeatable no matter what game you wanted to play. I'd say he was a cross between OG and E'hardt with a little of Jimmy on the side. He simply could take a brick and make it go fast, the harder he worked the more he liked it and you never really knew what he'd do while passing you by, it was just a relief that he wasn't near you anymore.

That's my take and in my mind there will never be an all time best. I do believe there are ATB era drivers and these guy listed above all have their special place in time and in my mind.

The End :waver:
 
This is the most competitive era of NASCAR ever. It's gotta be Jimmie.

Dangit.
 
Career winning percentages for some of our GOAT candidates (wins/starts):

David Pearson - 18.3% (105/574)
Richard Petty - 16.9% (200/1184)
Jimmie Johnson - 15.2% (69/455)
Jeff Gordon - 12.1% (90/745)
Dale Earnhardt - 11.2% (76/676)
 
#17D500winner said:
While I wont decide who is the greatest between Johnson and Gordon, I will say this; what I seen Sunday at Indy was but a glimps of Jeff Gordon during the first 10 or so years of his career. When he turned it on - which was most of the time - there was only one driver who could match him and we all know who that was.

Johnson is definitely one of the greats but to be able to hang with Gordon back then was something that I'm not sure Johnson could've done. I also don't know for sure that he couldn't have.
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Jimmy has not knocked the wall down as many times a Jeff.
 
sdj said:
Jimmy has not knocked the wall down as many times a Jeff.
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Jeff races harder and closer to the edge :idunno:

Jeff has gotten caught up in someone else's BS many many more times than he has spun on his own. It's rare to see him come around by himself.
 
What Jeff has done for NASCAR, Hendrick and his charities along with his racing accomplishments in a highly competitive era definitively places him in the conversation for GOAT. Jimmie has been nothing short of amazing but one wonders how he'd done had he had to actually build the house that Jeff built. Jimmie walked into a fully furnished luxury home.
 
sdj said:
Jimmy has not knocked the wall down as many times a Jeff.
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Please state the stats on this. Obviously Jeff had a rough rookie year but he didn't walk into the same situation Jimmie did what the 48 team was handed a fleet of championship caliber cars.
 
it is virtually impossible to determine who is the greatest of all time. So many different factors. I believe Tim Richmond is the greatest pure wheel man ever. Just flat out could drive a car. Thats one piece. You have obviously got to look at numbers, competition, eras etc.

Sr. is the greatest legend the sport has ever had, he also has had the greatest impact of anyone on the sport. Gordon really came as the next generation and Jimmie did as well for Gordon.

To me I value metal. Jimmie and the 48 team is truly soemthing to behold. It almost never fails that when theings go wrong they gather up the metal within themselves to make the situation better then it should end up being. I have seen Jimmie win in every points configuration in his career. From the standard cup points to the chase formats and re formats. If he manages to win number 7 and its in the new chase format I give it to him. Nascar has evolved incredibly over the past decade and Jimmie and that team has managed to evolve with it and stay on top throughout it.

We cannot hold it against drivers that they have good teams and good crew chiefs. They are in a team sport and they contribute heavily to the success of everyone.
 
ToyYoda said:
Career winning percentages for some of our GOAT candidates (wins/starts):

David Pearson - 18.3% (105/574)
Richard Petty - 16.9% (200/1184)
Jimmie Johnson - 15.2% (69/455)
Jeff Gordon - 12.1% (90/745)
Dale Earnhardt - 11.2% (76/676)
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Petty raced at least five years too long.
 
StandOnIt said:
You forgetting this? Kez broke his ankle and came back next week and won the race. Kyle Busch is one of the best tire managers Nascar has. I don't know how many endless times I have watched him nurse his car around with low pressures until they came up and he went to the front, and how many times he has pitted to get two for track position.

080311-NASCAR-Brad-Keselowski-ankle-injury-G4_20110803154826648_600_400.JPG
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nasty wreck....hes a trooper for driving through that
 
Matthew2470 said:
What Jeff has done for NASCAR, Hendrick and his charities along with his racing accomplishments in a highly competitive era definitively places him in the conversation for GOAT. Jimmie has been nothing short of amazing but one wonders how he'd done had he had to actually build the house that Jeff built. Jimmie walked into a fully furnished luxury home.
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Jeff didnt build the house, he couldn’t even sustain the same level after Ray left. He also had demonstrated an Achilles heel on restarts, he just isnt the animal like others. Races have been lost.

I have read a lot of Alan sucks yada, yada if Jeff was able to build Hendrick why cant he fix his restarts and get a worthy CC.
The reason JJ has the best crew is easy, Hendrick kmows were to invest his best talent. All damning attributes for a GOAT.
 
if Gordon won more in the COT or a championship, he'd be my lock for GOAT.. He always seemed a little off in that car to me. However, if he wins the title this year, that's mighty impressive.
 
Lazyking said:
if Gordon won more in the COT or a championship, he'd be my lock for GOAT.. He always seemed a little off in that car to me. However, if he wins the title this year, that's mighty impressive.
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2007
 
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