Enough Is Enough Full Season Championship.

You are arguing for a system that awarded a championship to a driver that had an average finish of 17th. You can love the system all that you want, but many fans don't think that is the way to do it. That isn't going to change. It doesn't have anything to do with age, but with what works or doesn't.
..and there's a bunch of people out there thinking it matters where someone finishes in the Daytona 500 when it comes to crowning a champion. It's an outdated system and it's never coming back.. people love to say things like "this isn't how motorsports should work" but don't really take into consideration the fact that their opinion of something doesn't make it factual.
 
Sorry old fellas but nascar is not making changes for you guys. It's not about what you want anymore.
We can want what we want. To me, the frustration is with those who can't accept that we aren't going to get it. I can want to eat a whole 16" double pepperoni pizza three days a week and not gain weight, but that won't happen either. No problem waxing poetic about the good ol' days but no amount of breath-holding is going to bring them back. The forward pass, designated hitter, and three-point line are here to stay.
 
We can want what we want. To me, the frustration is with those who can't accept that we aren't going to get it. I can want to eat a whole 16" double pepperoni pizza three days a week and not gain weight, but that won't happen either. No problem waxing poetic about the good ol' days but no amount of breath-holding is going to bring them back. The forward pass, designated hitter, and three-point line are here to stay.
How many times has Nascar changed something?
 
Do people not understand that nascar fans from 2-3 generations ago are no longer the target audience? Sorry old fellas but nascar is not making changes for you guys. It's not about what you want anymore. Nobody cares about how they ran races 30 years ago. They need to appeal to the next generation. As a fan who started watching in 2009 I see absolutely nothing wrong with this format as long as we don't see race manipulation keep happening. Most people my age(37) or younger would most likely agree. Keep in mind the majority of fans are probably not on social media or sharing their opinions about nascar on the internet.

The demographic for ages 18-49 in the recent Martinsville was only 14%. Before you beat up on us old guys perhaps your age group could do a better job supporting the series.

For comparison the 18-49 demo for the F1 race was 40%. Young people do a good job supporting F1 but not so much NASCAR. I agree Nascar needs a ton of new young fans but NASCAR’s current product is not attractive to them. Why is that?
 
Lots. Qualifying, points systems, technical specs, and restart procedures have changed several times.

How many times have they changed back to a previous standard, especially after 20 years?
Yeah, that would make too much sense, but I do think in order to save face they will tweak the mess that they have during the off season. At least I hope they do. Like an addict, they are addicted to the drama.
Nothing wrong with that, but I think they can have drama and at least some form of "legitimacy" better then they have now.
It almost takes a super computer to figure out the points, they have almost completely destroyed the importance of being the Championship winner with this points system lottery, compared to previous ways of crowning the series winner.
It could be that some fans don't care about that, but I think there are ways they can have both the drama and a better way to crown a champion.
 
Look, we can argue whether this format is "good" for the sport or not....whether the old Winston points was "better"...but you can't argue, under THIS format, that Joey wasn't deserving. If you are going to argue that, then you have to argue that stick and ball teams who only got in bc of expanded wild card formats and then went onto make a championship and even win it all aren't deserving either. There's no arguement that can be made that Joey and the Penske team aren't at the top of the game right now and have been for a decade. With the drivers he's racing against every year, no matter what format they use, Penske would adjust and be competing for titles. Its a non-argument to say that Joey wouldn't have won the title this year under the Winston Cup rules.....those aren't the rule.

This is almost like the age old arguement, who was better, the 96 Bulls or the whatever year that was the GSW?? Apples to oranges on how the NBA game was played between those two eras (and yes before anyone says it...i get it...the format stayed the same but you get my point). Oh and for the record, the Bulls would have killed them.
 
Look, we can argue whether this format is "good" for the sport or not....whether the old Winston points was "better"...but you can't argue, under THIS format, that Joey wasn't deserving. If you are going to argue that, then you have to argue that stick and ball teams who only got in bc of expanded wild card formats and then went onto make a championship and even win it all aren't deserving either. There's no arguement that can be made that Joey and the Penske team aren't at the top of the game right now and have been for a decade. With the drivers he's racing against every year, no matter what format they use, Penske would adjust and be competing for titles. Its a non-argument to say that Joey wouldn't have won the title this year under the Winston Cup rules.....those aren't the rule.

This is almost like the age old arguement, who was better, the 96 Bulls or the whatever year that was the GSW?? Apples to oranges on how the NBA game was played between those two eras (and yes before anyone says it...i get it...the format stayed the same but you get my point). Oh and for the record, the Bulls would have killed them.
Eh, ya lost me with the stick and ball stuff. I'm in no way saying the old Winston Cup versions, they had more than one, were better or worse than the newest version they have now. Like any points system (there isn't a perfect one, it doesn't exist). Two years in a row the Penske's have had lackluster seasons, weren't the best cars, BUT they rose to the occasion and won the playoff final 4 lottery.
Saying the same thing happens in stick and ball so it's just fine for racing many find hard to stomach.
 
I do think in order to save face they will tweak the mess that they have during the off season. At least I hope they do.
I hope they do too but I don't expect anything substantial. I'd love to know what was said last week in the meeting with manufacturers. I don't know of anything that's leaked yet.
 
It's a shame that a driver that was not running up front most of the season wound up as champion. Logano is a faux champion.
 
It's a shame that a driver that was not running up front most of the season wound up as champion. Logano is a faux champion.
What is icing on the cake is that the Penske's are saying that this IS the system and we played it. We would do something differently if there was a different points system.
So Nascar? how is the more focus on winning races points system working when 2 years in a row the 2 cars who didn't win a lot of races both won the championship?

It just takes just one win to be in the playoffs, I would look hard at that. Especially with three tracks, the super speedways and Atlanta where it takes as much luck as speed to win.
 
It's a shame that a driver that was not running up front most of the season wound up as champion. Logano is a faux champion.
Logano is a champion according to the rules under which he raced, the same as every driver that's preceded him in every other series. Running up front most of the year isn't a criteria. I don't like those rules either but teams have to call strategy based on how titles are awarded. What choice do they have? Race as if total points were the goal, print championship T-shirts despite finishing 17th, and be the laughing stock of the industry?
 
It just takes just one win to be in the playoffs, I would look hard at that.
Simplest fix would be to bring back the minimum points standing requirement to be in the playoffs. I'd favor 20th but would accept 25th.

But see my earlier posts about NASCAR not returning to earlier models. Doing so forces one to publicly acknowledge having made a mistake.
 
..and there's a bunch of people out there thinking it matters where someone finishes in the Daytona 500 when it comes to crowning a champion. It's an outdated system and it's never coming back.. people love to say things like "this isn't how motorsports should work" but don't really take into consideration the fact that their opinion of something doesn't make it factual.
This....but remember, @StandOnIt opinions are statements of fact to him citing "some of us" or "most of us" as data points. What is such bull**** is that this fanbase doesn't even take a couple of seconds to appreciate the Joey/Penske story. I'll play...."most" say that there isn't much that can be done to this car. I want what Penske didn't do on MY Toyotas. Joey is the Champion, and the biggest homer and most biased poster (me) celebrates him and his team today. I won't tell posters who **** talk the system to STFU because that wouldn't be polite and probably a violation of Terms of Use, but they should.
 
It's a shame that a driver that was not running up front most of the season wound up as champion. Logano is a faux champion.
That's a hard part. It diminishes regular season wins. It doesn't matter how many races they win, how dominate they are and those of us that understand that it makes an underlying current of...holy crap, I hope they keep it up because PLAYOFFS! It doesn't amount to almost anything after they fudge up the points.
 
The demographic for ages 18-49 in the recent Martinsville was only 14%. Before you beat up on us old guys perhaps your age group could do a better job supporting the series.

For comparison the 18-49 demo for the F1 race was 40%. Young people do a good job supporting F1 but not so much NASCAR. I agree Nascar needs a ton of new young fans but NASCAR’s current product is not attractive to them. Why is that?
That's not up to me to figure out but I don't think it's the playoffs.
 
That's a hard part. It diminishes regular season wins. It doesn't matter how many races they win, how dominate they are and those of us that understand that it makes an underlying current of...holy crap, I hope they keep it up because PLAYOFFS! It doesn't amount to almost anything after they fudge up the points.

If Bell had won one more race during the regular season, he would have been racing for the championship on Sunday.
 
This season more than others you can say some things would’ve been different. I seen one where Larson was 130 points back from Bell, but under that format, Larson doesn’t stay in Indy, he definitely goes back to Charlotte. Depending how he does there (11th or better) he makes up those points. Other things you can just guess would’ve been different, this person doesn’t pit here, this person settles for a 5th there, etc. but I think saying Larson comes back to Charlotte for the 600 is one you can guarantee. Now if he finishes 11th or better in it? We will never know.
 
We can want what we want. To me, the frustration is with those who can't accept that we aren't going to get it. I can want to eat a whole 16" double pepperoni pizza three days a week and not gain weight, but that won't happen either. No problem waxing poetic about the good ol' days but no amount of breath-holding is going to bring them back. The forward pass, designated hitter, and three-point line are here to stay.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.. The courage to change the things I can.. And the wisdom to know the difference.
 
What is icing on the cake is that the Penske's are saying that this IS the system and we played it. We would do something differently if there was a different points system.
So Nascar? how is the more focus on winning races points system working when 2 years in a row the 2 cars who didn't win a lot of races both won the championship?

It just takes just one win to be in the playoffs, I would look hard at that. Especially with three tracks, the super speedways and Atlanta where it takes as much luck as speed to win.
Remember, Logano would not have made it to the Round of 8 had Bowman's car not passed tech. That's how mediocre his season was.
 
That's not up to me to figure out but I don't think it's the playoffs.

It’s baby boomers who are tuning in to watch certainly not younger people. The Martinsville race had about 2.5 million viewers of which only 350k were in the the 18-49 preferred demo.

Better be nice to us old guys as we’re the ones tuning in each week. Your generation does not watch NASCAR in very big numbers.
 
We can want what we want. To me, the frustration is with those who can't accept that we aren't going to get it. I can want to eat a whole 16" double pepperoni pizza three days a week and not gain weight, but that won't happen either. No problem waxing poetic about the good ol' days but no amount of breath-holding is going to bring them back. The forward pass, designated hitter, and three-point line are here to stay.
In reality I don’t think the laughingstock of a point system NASCAR uses is even age related. If you’re a Joey Logs fan there is nothing wrong with the point system as it stands. Most others including the drivers think it is awful and unfair.

There is no ambiguity as to who the best driver was this year. It’s so obvious I don’t even have to mention his name. Joey Logs won fair and square under the rules in place but that system is a slap in the face to many of us.
 
It’s baby boomers who are tuning in to watch certainly not younger people. The Martinsville race had about 2.5 million viewers of which only 350k were in the the 18-49 preferred demo.

Better be nice to us old guys as we’re the ones tuning in each week. Your generation does not watch NASCAR in very big numbers.
Yeah well I doubt many more would tune in if they knew their drover had no chance over the last 1/3 of the season.. or are we not directly competing with football?
 
NASCAR: Changes from a season long points system 20 years ago

Fans today: For some reason think the full season still matters.

There are basically 2 seasons per season... the first 26 are to set yourself up and that all becomes irrelevant once we hit playoffs. It doesn't matter where you finished in May or April. Those races were run to get the advantage available to you for running well during that time and then it's over.
 

NASCAR’s playoff system is broken. Joey Logano’s win should be a tipping point​

Jeff Gluck
AVONDALE, Ariz. — Joey Logano elevated himself to the upper echelon of NASCAR’s all-time champions on Sunday, becoming just the third driver to win at least three Cup Series titles.

Yet in the hours since the checkered flag, many NASCAR fans have found themselves unable to appreciate Logano’s achievement. On X, some erupted with a level of hostility that was notable even for an already-angry platform; in person, they quickly and quietly filed out of the grandstands instead of sticking around to watch the new champion’s celebration.

The NASCAR playoff format is broken. But to understand what needs to happen next, we first have to look at how NASCAR got here.

In 2003, bored by Matt Kenseth’s consistent but unspectacular march to the season-long championship, newly appointed NASCAR CEO Brian France devised a first-of-its-kind playoff system for motorsports that went against the entirety of racing history: a 10-week-long “Chase for the Cup.”

Previously, a motorsport champion was viewed as the best driver over the course of a full season. Unlike the NFL or NBA, no racetrack is the same; the field of play changes every week, which requires different driving styles and car setups. Traditionally, a driver and team must prove their worth over a large sample size to be viewed as the best.

But with NASCAR’s popularity skyrocketing, France aimed to change that. Salivating at the opportunity to challenge the NFL for American sports dominance, he implemented a concept already familiar to mainstream sports fans: playoffs. France figured he could grab new eyeballs to boost TV ratings and attention for NASCAR during a time of year when it was head-to-head with the NFL, and — as crazy as it sounds now — there were people who really thought NASCAR could own those fall Sundays.

Except it didn’t work. After a short-lived boost in metrics, France’s 10-week-long “Chase” did not achieve its desired result. Ratings and attendance began to dip sharply, which looked worse when it later coincided with the country’s economic downturn in 2008. It didn’t help that one driver, Jimmie Johnson, won the Chase five years in a row in a relentless grip on the series.

So after Johnson’s sixth title in 10 years of the initial format, France grew restless again and made an even more desperate move in 2014: An elimination-style playoff system that would whittle the field to four drivers, then have them square off for a single, winner-take-all championship race.

The entire purpose was to inject so much drama into the end of NASCAR’s season — “Game 7 moments,” as France infamously said — that non-traditional racing fans would tune in to witness the excitement of elimination races and the championship event.

That increased interest never came. And now, more than six years since France stepped down after being arrested and charged with driving while intoxicated in the Hamptons, NASCAR has been unable to extricate itself from his convoluted format.

To be fair, there hasn’t always been much urgency to do so. The championship format is a consistent debate topic that simmers but rarely reaches a full boil. There have been enough seasons where the eventual champion of the elimination playoffs fits the season-long narrative and justifies why that person won the title. At times, it can pass the eye test in a traditional motorsports sense.

Logano upended that on Sunday, and now it’s fair to wonder if NASCAR will react with a change — much in the same way France did after Kenseth’s 2003 dominance and Johnson’s mass of trophies.

It’s not Logano’s fault, of course. He and his team so perfectly executed exactly what they were supposed to do with a car that wasn’t fast enough to win a championship for much of the season that it came off as exploiting a loophole:

• Logano would not have made the playoffs without a borderline miraculous victory at Nashville, during which he improbably stretched his fuel through five overtime periods in a Hail Mary strategy move.

• Logano was eliminated from the playoffs after the second round, only to be reinstated a few hours later when another competitor’s car was ruled to be illegal.

• Logano then won his way into the championship race thanks to a perfectly timed caution at Las Vegas, which enabled his team to try a risky fuel-strategy gamble yet again after he wasn’t fast enough to win that day.

• Logano had two weeks to prepare for the Phoenix race and was able to perfectly defend his line in the closing laps by blocking a faster car (teammate Ryan Blaney) behind him.

Aside from winning four races this season, Logano’s other statistics were the lowest ever (some by far) for a NASCAR champion. His average finish this year was 17.1, which ranks 13th in the series. He had just the 12th-most points scored this season — fewer than Chris Buescher, who didn’t even make the playoffs. Logano ranked 11th in top-five finishes and 13th in top-10 finishes.

The series champion having those numbers, regardless of who it is, makes it worth wondering whether this has reached a tipping point for fans. In the hours since the checkered flag, many have sent thoughtful direct messages and emails expressing why they fear it will be harder to retain their interest and enthusiasm next season; Logano winning simply has little correlation to what fans watched for the majority of the year.

Make no mistake: There are certainly strong proponents of the format — Logano included. The supporters like to note upsets happen in every form of playoffs; after all, that’s what makes it fun to see a No. 15 seed upset a No. 2 in the NCAA Tournament or watch a wild-card team make a Super Bowl run.

Except arguments in that vein always miss a crucial point: Those are one-on-one matchups, whereas NASCAR puts all the non-playoff drivers on the “field” together at the same time. If you look at the recent race at Martinsville Speedway as a football game, William Byron scored a touchdown and advanced to the next round because players from two non-playoff teams escorted him to the end zone as blockers.

Even in Sunday’s race, the pivotal caution flag was brought out by Zane Smith — a rookie who finished 30th in the standings this season. Logano made a bold move on the ensuing restart to take the lead, and he never relinquished it.

That’s terrific for him, and he deserves all the credit for winning in a system that allowed this. There may be no one better in NASCAR history than Logano at maximizing the situation — whether that’s the format, the speed of his car or fuel strategy. Aside from already being one of NASCAR’s greats, Logano also happens to be a fantastic ambassador off the track.

Criticism of the format should not be confused with criticism of Logano.

But as a sport, NASCAR needs to have a system that allows fans to embrace greatness. It would be one thing if 11 years of this elimination format and 21 overall years of playoffs generated such a high entertainment value that it boosted the sport’s numbers and ensured its long-term viability; if anything, it’s done the opposite.

NASCAR is arguably weaker today because of the playoffs. From this view, NASCAR is lower on the sports ladder because France got greedy and made a generation-altering miscalculation.

Thankfully, he’s no longer in charge. But those who are should move quickly to create their own legacy by putting France’s creation in the rear-view mirror.

From Jeff Gluck per The athletic
 

NASCAR’s playoff system is broken. Joey Logano’s win should be a tipping point​

Jeff Gluck
AVONDALE, Ariz. — Joey Logano elevated himself to the upper echelon of NASCAR’s all-time champions on Sunday, becoming just the third driver to win at least three Cup Series titles.

Yet in the hours since the checkered flag, many NASCAR fans have found themselves unable to appreciate Logano’s achievement. On X, some erupted with a level of hostility that was notable even for an already-angry platform; in person, they quickly and quietly filed out of the grandstands instead of sticking around to watch the new champion’s celebration.

The NASCAR playoff format is broken. But to understand what needs to happen next, we first have to look at how NASCAR got here.

In 2003, bored by Matt Kenseth’s consistent but unspectacular march to the season-long championship, newly appointed NASCAR CEO Brian France devised a first-of-its-kind playoff system for motorsports that went against the entirety of racing history: a 10-week-long “Chase for the Cup.”

Previously, a motorsport champion was viewed as the best driver over the course of a full season. Unlike the NFL or NBA, no racetrack is the same; the field of play changes every week, which requires different driving styles and car setups. Traditionally, a driver and team must prove their worth over a large sample size to be viewed as the best.

But with NASCAR’s popularity skyrocketing, France aimed to change that. Salivating at the opportunity to challenge the NFL for American sports dominance, he implemented a concept already familiar to mainstream sports fans: playoffs. France figured he could grab new eyeballs to boost TV ratings and attention for NASCAR during a time of year when it was head-to-head with the NFL, and — as crazy as it sounds now — there were people who really thought NASCAR could own those fall Sundays.

Except it didn’t work. After a short-lived boost in metrics, France’s 10-week-long “Chase” did not achieve its desired result. Ratings and attendance began to dip sharply, which looked worse when it later coincided with the country’s economic downturn in 2008. It didn’t help that one driver, Jimmie Johnson, won the Chase five years in a row in a relentless grip on the series.

So after Johnson’s sixth title in 10 years of the initial format, France grew restless again and made an even more desperate move in 2014: An elimination-style playoff system that would whittle the field to four drivers, then have them square off for a single, winner-take-all championship race.

The entire purpose was to inject so much drama into the end of NASCAR’s season — “Game 7 moments,” as France infamously said — that non-traditional racing fans would tune in to witness the excitement of elimination races and the championship event.

That increased interest never came. And now, more than six years since France stepped down after being arrested and charged with driving while intoxicated in the Hamptons, NASCAR has been unable to extricate itself from his convoluted format.

To be fair, there hasn’t always been much urgency to do so. The championship format is a consistent debate topic that simmers but rarely reaches a full boil. There have been enough seasons where the eventual champion of the elimination playoffs fits the season-long narrative and justifies why that person won the title. At times, it can pass the eye test in a traditional motorsports sense.

Logano upended that on Sunday, and now it’s fair to wonder if NASCAR will react with a change — much in the same way France did after Kenseth’s 2003 dominance and Johnson’s mass of trophies.

It’s not Logano’s fault, of course. He and his team so perfectly executed exactly what they were supposed to do with a car that wasn’t fast enough to win a championship for much of the season that it came off as exploiting a loophole:

• Logano would not have made the playoffs without a borderline miraculous victory at Nashville, during which he improbably stretched his fuel through five overtime periods in a Hail Mary strategy move.

• Logano was eliminated from the playoffs after the second round, only to be reinstated a few hours later when another competitor’s car was ruled to be illegal.

• Logano then won his way into the championship race thanks to a perfectly timed caution at Las Vegas, which enabled his team to try a risky fuel-strategy gamble yet again after he wasn’t fast enough to win that day.

• Logano had two weeks to prepare for the Phoenix race and was able to perfectly defend his line in the closing laps by blocking a faster car (teammate Ryan Blaney) behind him.

Aside from winning four races this season, Logano’s other statistics were the lowest ever (some by far) for a NASCAR champion. His average finish this year was 17.1, which ranks 13th in the series. He had just the 12th-most points scored this season — fewer than Chris Buescher, who didn’t even make the playoffs. Logano ranked 11th in top-five finishes and 13th in top-10 finishes.

The series champion having those numbers, regardless of who it is, makes it worth wondering whether this has reached a tipping point for fans. In the hours since the checkered flag, many have sent thoughtful direct messages and emails expressing why they fear it will be harder to retain their interest and enthusiasm next season; Logano winning simply has little correlation to what fans watched for the majority of the year.

Make no mistake: There are certainly strong proponents of the format — Logano included. The supporters like to note upsets happen in every form of playoffs; after all, that’s what makes it fun to see a No. 15 seed upset a No. 2 in the NCAA Tournament or watch a wild-card team make a Super Bowl run.

Except arguments in that vein always miss a crucial point: Those are one-on-one matchups, whereas NASCAR puts all the non-playoff drivers on the “field” together at the same time. If you look at the recent race at Martinsville Speedway as a football game, William Byron scored a touchdown and advanced to the next round because players from two non-playoff teams escorted him to the end zone as blockers.

Even in Sunday’s race, the pivotal caution flag was brought out by Zane Smith — a rookie who finished 30th in the standings this season. Logano made a bold move on the ensuing restart to take the lead, and he never relinquished it.

That’s terrific for him, and he deserves all the credit for winning in a system that allowed this. There may be no one better in NASCAR history than Logano at maximizing the situation — whether that’s the format, the speed of his car or fuel strategy. Aside from already being one of NASCAR’s greats, Logano also happens to be a fantastic ambassador off the track.

Criticism of the format should not be confused with criticism of Logano.

But as a sport, NASCAR needs to have a system that allows fans to embrace greatness. It would be one thing if 11 years of this elimination format and 21 overall years of playoffs generated such a high entertainment value that it boosted the sport’s numbers and ensured its long-term viability; if anything, it’s done the opposite.

NASCAR is arguably weaker today because of the playoffs. From this view, NASCAR is lower on the sports ladder because France got greedy and made a generation-altering miscalculation.

Thankfully, he’s no longer in charge. But those who are should move quickly to create their own legacy by putting France’s creation in the rear-view mirror.

From Jeff Gluck per The athletic
Joey won in the rules that were presented, everyone knew them, everyone competed in them. That doesn’t make the rules great at the very best, and at the very worst at least explore taking a look to change them.
 
A lot of the legitimacy concerns could be addressed with a 3 race final round. If you want to use the 10 race playoff structure, just have the first race be its own round. Playoff points will protect the front runners and the four who drop after one race likely wouldn’t have gone far anyway.
 
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