Future of Manufacturer Involvement

Revman

Revman

Toyota Gazoo Racing North America
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First, congrats to Ford for the Daytona 500 win. I have huge respect for Doug Yates (and Robert of course). Also enjoy Jack Roush very much. Just listened to Dave Pericek on NASCAR Radio, and his description of Ford Performance's involvement with its teams sounded very much like the TRD model sans the engine building. He talked about Ford engineers embedded in each team, and the set up help Ford gives its teams. Additionally, Ford has started a driver development program similar in aggressiveness to TRD/Toyota. Chevy seems to continue to have its eggs in the Hendrick basket, and doesn't have a formal driver development program. So, it looks like old school (Chevy) and new school (Toyota, Ford). What are the pluses and minuses of each approach for both the manufacturer and NASCAR in general?
 
I really don't see why Chevrolet isn't following Toyotas model. The success they've had is phenomenal. Toyota has six teams(11,18,19,20,77,78) that could win any week, Ford has five(2,4,14,22,41). Chevrolet has three(48,24,88), maybe four(maybe 42). That's not a good ratio.
 
I think the TRD and now Ford model is the way of the future for NASCAR. Chevy needs to get on board. It would be far better for the teams and the sport if the huge costs of R&D, driver development, and fabrication were handled at the manufacturer level instead of by the individual teams. Of course, the downside is if a Manufacturer pulls out of the sport it would devastate the associated teams. But you don't get the kind of $200 million buy-in from Ford unless you plan to stay for the long haul anyways.
 
Bowtie3 said:
I really don't see why Chevrolet isn't following Toyotas model. The success they've had is phenomenal. Toyota has six teams(11,18,19,20,77,78) that could win any week, Ford has five(2,4,14,22,41). Chevrolet has three(48,24,88), maybe four(maybe 42). That's not a good ratio.
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How do we know the 77 can win any week??
 
Bowtie3 said:
I really don't see why Chevrolet isn't following Toyotas model. The success they've had is phenomenal. Toyota has six teams(11,18,19,20,77,78) that could win any week, Ford has five(2,4,14,22,41). Chevrolet has three(48,24,88), maybe four(maybe 42). That's not a good ratio.
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Chevy had the 4, 14 and 10 until Tony figured that they would be 2nd fiddle to everything and decided that going to Ford would be better for the team. So it is their own fault for not having three more. Also you forgot that Chevy has RCR, although they aren't the force they once were but maybe the kids are starting to grow. The 3 was in the hunt for most of the race and has a good finishing record.
 
Bowtie3 said:
I really don't see why Chevrolet isn't following Toyotas model. The success they've had is phenomenal. Toyota has six teams(11,18,19,20,77,78) that could win any week, Ford has five(2,4,14,22,41). Chevrolet has three(48,24,88), maybe four(maybe 42). That's not a good ratio.
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All the Toyota's are just the Gibbs cars, and of the Fords you listed the 4, 14, and 41 were until this year Hendrick built Chevy's. I look for Chevy to pick up another team before next season. Anyway, in the last 10 years Chevy's won all but 2 of the Cup titles, so they're doing alright. ;)
 
oldgoat said:
Chevy had the 4, 14 and 10 until Tony figured that they would be 2nd fiddle to everything and decided that going to Ford would be better for the team. So it is their own fault for not having three more. Also you forgot that Chevy has RCR, although they aren't the force they once were but maybe the kids are starting to grow. The 3 was in the hunt for most of the race and has a good finishing record.
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I think once RCR transitions from Menard and Newman to the young guns, they will improve even more.
 
Bowtie3 said:
I really don't see why Chevrolet isn't following Toyotas model. The success they've had is phenomenal. Toyota has six teams(11,18,19,20,77,78) that could win any week, Ford has five(2,4,14,22,41). Chevrolet has three(48,24,88), maybe four(maybe 42). That's not a good ratio.
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"Not a good ratio" won the sprint cup championship last season :idunno:

Imo Chevy will be just fine.
 
Jones or Suarez wouldn't be a shocking win at any point. The 19 is a championship caliber car. I don't think it'll take Suarez long to start winning. Jones may take linger, once he learns to get out of his own way. He will be a weekly contender. Maybe not early in 2017, but I'd say by the playoffs, he will be.
 
CamelPowered said:
All the Toyota's are just the Gibbs cars, and of the Fords you listed the 4, 14, and 41 were until this year Hendrick built Chevy's. I look for Chevy to pick up another team before next season. Anyway, in the last 10 years Chevy's won all but 2 of the Cup titles, so they're doing alright. ;)
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For now.
 
I think it's great for the sport to have such a big involvement from the manufacturers. I agree Chevy doesn't have to prove anything as they have been the kings for so long. Toyota has come in and forced Ford to pick up it's game which is good. I do think it makes it more difficult for another manufacturer to come in to the sport though. Say Dodge decided to return, they would need at least 6 cars that can be competitive to keep up with the other three. They'd need a team like RCR that has a big Xfinity program and builds ingines along with their affiliates and maybe even another team like Petty. That is when Chey will need to worry.
 
Acs said:
Of course, the downside is if a Manufacturer pulls out of the sport it would devastate the associated teams.
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This is a brilliant point. Although many have discussed new manufacturers coming into the sport, it is imperative that those new participants stay long term for this very reason.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
"Not a good ratio" won the sprint cup championship last season :idunno:

Imo Chevy will be just fine.
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Gonna split hairs with you here, Yes, a Chevy team won the championship, but they didn't win the manufacturer title.

I do agree with , Chevy will be just fine, but for how long, Chevy might have to step up their game here soon.
 
MarcWiley said:
I wrote this yesterday about this very topic
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Completely agree with everything you said. It was refreshing to see the commentators talk about manufacturer rivalries again, the sport needs that. Although, I will say the segments created weird pit strategies and we never really got to see the manufacturers duke it out under green yesterday.
 
Acs said:
Completely agree with everything you said. It was refreshing to see the commentators talk about manufacturer rivalries again, the sport needs that. Although, I will say the segments created weird pit strategies and we never really got to see the manufacturers duke it out under green yesterday.
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Agreed, although without Kyle Busch's flat and Jamie McMurray altogether, we would have seen who had what in the final segment. I was really looking forward to it. I have a few drivers I pull for in each camp so I was genuinely interested to see it all shake out. Alas, we wait until Talladega (and hope Jamie Mac can reel in his front bumper)
 
Related to this, SHR sure is talking up ford horse power...all the drivers. I wonder if HMS screwed tony over or something. I know, I know...they switched engine makers and they want to throw out some bones, but it seemed...excessive.
 
DanicaFreak said:
Related to this, SHR sure is talking up ford horse power...all the drivers. I wonder if HMS screwed tony over or something. I know, I know...they switched engine makers and they want to throw out some bones, but it seemed...excessive.
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No kidding. Although they certainly did show a lot of strength on Sunday. Could be something to it....
 
Revman said:
So, it looks like old school (Chevy) and new school (Toyota, Ford). What are the pluses and minuses of each approach for both the manufacturer and NASCAR in general?
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I agree with how Revman set it up in the OP. Toyota rewrote the business model, with the manufacturer assuming certain functions that previously had been team responsibilities. And that also cost Toyota more than the old school model. Ford is following suit, thankfully. This leads to more media interest... followed by fan interst... in a manufacturer rivalry. It's all good so far.

The great risk is that Chevy could elect to leave, which would be a disaster for the sport. Or Ford could tire of the expense and bow out. Or Toyota could. Heavy reliance on the manufacturers comes with heavy risk. It has always been thus in motor racing, and always will be.

At the end of the day, manufacturers are ROI driven. Their appetite for top level racing waxes and wanes. And the higher the cost, the more difficult it is to demonstrate positive ROI. I have seen this many times over the decades, in every form of racing. It's very painful when the manufacturers cut back or pull out.

As mentioned above, the new school model also raises the entry barriers to manufacturers who are considering joining the fray. That is another great risk.

So I'm going to enjoy this while I can, but I'm fearful about the hangover when the party ends.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I agree with how Revman set it up in the OP. Toyota rewrote the business model, with the manufacturer assuming certain functions that previously had been team responsibilities. And that also cost Toyota more than the old school model. Ford is following suit, thankfully. This leads to more media interest... followed by fan interst... in a manufacturer rivalry. It's all good so far.

The great risk is that Chevy could elect to leave, which would be a disaster for the sport. Or Ford could tire of the expense and bow out. Or Toyota could. Heavy reliance on the manufacturers comes with heavy risk. It has always been thus in motor racing, and always will be.

At the end of the day, manufacturers are ROI driven. Their appetite for top level racing waxes and wanes. And the higher the cost, the more difficult it is to demonstrate positive ROI. I have seen this many times over the decades, in every form of racing. It's very painful when the manufacturers cut back or pull out.

As mentioned above, the new school model also raises the entry barriers to manufacturers who are considering joining the fray. That is another great risk.

So I'm going to enjoy this while I can, but I'm fearful about the hangover when the party ends.
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This is extremely well said. Toyota wanted no part in driver development initially. Also, they wanted JGR to be their builder. Losing Kyle Larson and reliability problems with the Toyotas at the JGR shop led Toyota to where they are....and this is what Jack Roush was upset about when Toyota entered. In effect, I have to admit that Toyota has raised the price for manufacturers to play. If they had done what they are doing from day 1, there would have been a huge NASCAR backlash. It truly believe, however, that it was never in their plan to develop drivers and build engines--long term. This stuff was born out of necessity and economics. David Wilson has done a masterful job taking Toyota to the next step with his driver development and car count initiatives. Ford obviously has fallen in line, and I think it will pay dividends. Chevy may very well be able to continue on their path without consequence because they have Hendrick, and Hendrick is Hendrick. I like the fact that all of this has raised the bar for manufacturer involvement. It is going to take commitment. I do not think that short timer manufacturers are good for a series.
 
DanicaFreak said:
Related to this, SHR sure is talking up ford horse power...all the drivers. I wonder if HMS screwed tony over or something. I know, I know...they switched engine makers and they want to throw out some bones, but it seemed...excessive.
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Yes they did. But like I stated the other day I've more mention of the manufacturers so far at Daytona then I did all last first half of the seaon. Seems to me the manufacturers wanted more chatter. So could be a little bit of both
 
Fordracing7 said:
Yes they did. But like I stated the other day I've more mention of the manufacturers so far at Daytona then I did all last first half of the seaon. Seems to me the manufacturers wanted more chatter. So could be a little bit of both
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Also there is a rumor I heard from a local guy around here in New England who has ties to down south and a few of the big teams ....that Honda is exploring a possible entry into Nascar. Not sure how true this is, but it would make sense seeing how Honda and Toyota are huge competitors in the market.;)
 
Mopardh9 said:
Also there is a rumor I heard from a local guy around here in New England who has ties to down south and a few of the big teams ....that Honda is exploring a possible entry into Nascar. Not sure how true this is, but it would make sense seeing how Honda and Toyota are huge competitors in the market.;)
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I'd like to see Nissan get into the sport. They have a full size truck so they could compete in the NCWTS, and I think the Altima would make a damn fine looking Cup car.
 
ToyYoda said:
I'd like to see Nissan get into the sport. They have a full size truck so they could compete in the NCWTS, and I think the Altima would make a damn fine looking Cup car.
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Have you SEEN the V8 Supercar version?
 
MarcWiley said:
Have you SEEN the V8 Supercar version?
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I had to look it up. Is this the one?
IMG_0697.JPG
 
MarcWiley said:
Have you SEEN the V8 Supercar version?
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I love it, looks great. The NASCAR version would probably be f-ed up though.

Also, they'd probably run the Maxima in Xfinity, and holy Sh*t the new model is fugly. They took a reasonable, stylish, sleeper sports car and ruined it. WTF is this supposed to be??

Nissan_Maxima_SV_%28A36%29_%E2%80%93_Frontansicht%2C_1._Oktober_2016%2C_New_York.jpg
 
Acs said:
I love it, looks great. The NASCAR version would probably be f-ed up though.

Also, they'd probably run the Maxima in Xfinity, and holy Sh*t the new model is fugly. They took a reasonable, stylish, sleeper sports car and ruined it. WTF is this supposed to be??

Nissan_Maxima_SV_%28A36%29_%E2%80%93_Frontansicht%2C_1._Oktober_2016%2C_New_York.jpg
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I agree, those new Maximas are nasty looking. I loved the looks of the previous generation though.
 
Acs said:
I love it, looks great. The NASCAR version would probably be f-ed up though.

Also, they'd probably run the Maxima in Xfinity, and holy Sh*t the new model is fugly. They took a reasonable, stylish, sleeper sports car and ruined it. WTF is this supposed to be??

OMG. That is UGLY as sin. What were they drinking/smoking? What is with that beltline and C-pillar?

Nissan_Maxima_SV_%28A36%29_%E2%80%93_Frontansicht%2C_1._Oktober_2016%2C_New_York.jpg
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ToyYoda said:
I agree, those new Maximas are nasty looking. I loved the looks of the previous generation though.
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If you take out that weird chrome bit in the middle it looks a ton better. No idea why they added that.
 
MarcWiley said:
If you take out that weird chrome bit in the middle it looks a ton better. No idea why they added that.
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Yeah, that chrome piece gives it a certain bucktooth quality.

As far as the body lines, one of the designers must have been missing their old '77 Monte Carlo when they put those in.
 
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