Good discussion about what makes "good racing"

gnomesayin said:
I have to agree with the sentiment here. I don't follow WRC, but I follow many other forms of racing, and some other sports casually. I have never found another in which such focus is placed on rating or expressing instant satisfaction / dissatisfaction with each event. Everywhere else in the galaxy, it is a given that some contests are going to be nail-biting thrillers and some are going to be won in dominant fashion. People who enjoy the competition for what it is roll with the punches and watch through highs and lows. They discuss what happened, not whether what happened qualifies for a Two Thumbs Up or a B-minus.

There is nothing wrong with the race ratings themselves as a fun exercise. I don't participate because I have trouble seeing the utility when there is no widespread agreement on what 7/10 means. For some people, 7 is about low as they go. Others would say 7 is a C as in average as @StandOnIt stated. Still others would look at a 0-10 scale and assume 7 must still be quite good, since it's much closer to the best rating than the worst.

The problem isn't the polls themselves. It's the shocking insecurity that exists throughout the sport that creates the impetus for constant fixing, tweaking, and enhancing to chase higher approval.
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Bolded I agree with 1000000 times over. The constant tweaking and reactionary tactics are just too much sometimes. I appreciate NASCAR in trying to create something more, but at the moment this is about the best racing since I'd say '13 and '14 where teams were still trying to figure out the Gen 6 car. We talk a lot of **** about the Gen 6 car and its understandle, but damn there have been some great racing in some cases. Not to mention VHT and the tire dragon on the one lane tracks.

The product is there tbh, but its so many make shift ideas to "improve" racing to each a wider audience. To improve the show factor to "wow" on TV, but that's the question that will never be answered tbh.

Should we continue to try to reach more people by adding in the gimmicks? Or should we continue with what we have with the audience we currently have?

Its an ever revolving door. I think we have had bad races with the Gen 6 car, but to be honest and truthful... Has it really been THAT bad or abysmal in some cases? Yes, but I remember a lot of great races, too.
 
Kiante said:
Losing Gordon, Stewart, Earnhardt Jr, even lesser known drivers like the Biffle's of the world all hurt because they had such a huge following. The sport is in a bit of a transitional period and honestly, the last few times I have gone out to the track I saw a lot of kids. Also, young men and women my age, but the hardcore fan is dying off to be completely honest.


Bolded I agree with 1000000 times over. The constant tweaking and reactionary tactics are just too much sometimes. I appreciate NASCAR in trying to create something more, but at the moment this is about the best racing since I'd say '13 and '14 where teams were still trying to figure out the Gen 6 car. We talk a lot of sh!t about the Gen 6 car and its understandle, but damn there have been some great racing in some cases. Not to mention VHT and the tire dragon on the one lane tracks.

The product is there tbh, but its so many make shift ideas to "improve" racing to each a wider audience. To improve the show factor to "wow" on TV, but that's the question that will never be answered tbh.

Should we continue to try to reach more people by adding in the gimmicks? Or should we continue with what we have with the audience we currently have?

Its an ever revolving door. I think we have had bad races with the Gen 6 car, but to be honest and truthful... Has it really been THAT bad or abysmal in some cases? Yes, but I remember a lot of great races, too.
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I agree. NASCAR made up its mind about the All Star Package right after the race, but before the racing got really good. Now, they are stuck. Bail on the Package, and people are pissed. Go to the Package, and you have left behind what you were always looking for IMO. Leave the damn thing alone.
 
so manny say they aren't ok with the constant tweaking/changes as they call it, but the VHT and the tire dragon is ok? If I remember some around here mostly had nothing good to say about the stick um and even less enthusiasm for the tire dragon. But nobody around here would admit they weren't for any of those. If it wasn't for constantly trying different things to improve the racing, and yeah some of them aren't going to be a success, but many many changes have been made that are very positive and they have made the racing better.
 
kk5fan said:
I need a team to cheer for,
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I went into this season with no favorite driver after what we all thought was Kenseth's retirement. I've found it liberating to not have my enjoyment of the race hinging on one driver's performance. I don't enjoy the racing any more or less, just differently, even after Matt's semi-comeback.
 
StandOnIt said:
so manny say they aren't ok with the constant tweaking/changes as they call it, but the VHT and the tire dragon is ok? If I remember some around here mostly had nothing good to say about the stick um and even less enthusiasm for the tire dragon. But nobody around here would admit they weren't for any of those. If it wasn't for constantly trying different things to improve the racing, and yeah some of them aren't going to be a success, but many many changes have been made that are very positive and they have made the racing better.
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Experiment with the X series. Experiment with Trucks. Don't experiment with Cup until something has been tried at the lower levels for at least half a season (not just one race).
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Experiment with the X series. Experiment with Trucks. Don't experiment with Cup until something has been tried at the lower levels for at least half a season (not just one race).
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that doesn't make any sense. Maybe you haven't been keeping up with the changes they have made in the lower series. They are pretty huge.
 
My comment was aimed mostly at the Indy / All-Star aero and plate package (in my opinion undertested at the lower level); points systems, 5-minute clocks, pit crew composition, and stages (implemented at all levels without being tested at lower ones first); and playoffs (implemented at the Cup level first and tested there before being pushed down; worst approach of all).
 
StandOnIt said:
so manny say they aren't ok with the constant tweaking/changes as they call it, but the VHT and the tire dragon is ok? If I remember some around here mostly had nothing good to say about the stick um and even less enthusiasm for the tire dragon. But nobody around here would admit they weren't for any of those. If it wasn't for constantly trying different things to improve the racing, and yeah some of them aren't going to be a success, but many many changes have been made that are very positive and they have made the racing better.
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We can go around and around. You anticipate that you will prefer the effects of these changes to the status quo, thus you support the changes. Some of us surmise that we will not, and would rather it generally stay on the current course.

It's about the specific changes in question, not being open to change in a vacuum. There are other potential changes that I might support.
 
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StandOnIt said:
so manny say they aren't ok with the constant tweaking/changes as they call it, but the VHT and the tire dragon is ok? If I remember some around here mostly had nothing good to say about the stick um and even less enthusiasm for the tire dragon. But nobody around here would admit they weren't for any of those. If it wasn't for constantly trying different things to improve the racing, and yeah some of them aren't going to be a success, but many many changes have been made that are very positive and they have made the racing better.
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As of right now, the package is fine. I'm just talking about the aero package, I was fine with the VHT and tire dragon to help widen out the line for the drivers. That was pretty cool tbh and NASCAR trying to help improve the racing especially one lane tracks, it helped out with NHMS a ton.

All I want is to just keep the aero package the same for a season. Just some consistency on that front.
 
Kiante said:
I was fine with the VHT and tire dragon to help widen out the line for the drivers.
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sure everybody is fine with those gimmicks now, anything to try to take away the one lane single file racing. So far the stick um is giving others who aren't the leader in the preferred line a place to try to pass and has enhanced the racing product. I myself prefer the leaders to be side by side clawing and scratching for the lead like we have seen on many road courses and the smaller tracks occasionally. So if any package can improve the races on the problem tracks I am all for testing it out. The high or the low packages IMO haven't improved the racing, as before with all of the cautions, the restart is where the excitement usually come from until a lap or two later they get all strung out. not saying it is terrible, but if something can improve it like trying the stick um that almost everybody here had a hissy fit over or something along the lines of the All Star package on the problem tracks so be it.
 
StandOnIt said:
sure everybody is fine with those gimmicks now, anything to try to take away the one lane single file racing. So far the stick um is giving others who aren't the leader in the preferred line a place to try to pass and has enhanced the racing product. I myself prefer the leaders to be side by side clawing and scratching for the lead like we have seen on many road courses and the smaller tracks occasionally. So if any package can improve the races on the problem tracks I am all for testing it out. The high or the low packages IMO haven't improved the racing, as before with all of the cautions, the restart is where the excitement usually come from until a lap or two later they get all strung out. not saying it is terrible, but if something can improve it like trying the stick um that almost everybody here had a hissy fit over or something along the lines of the All Star package on the problem tracks so be it.
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I really don't understand the bitching about the sticky stuff, and then the glorification of a groomed dirt track. What the hell is the difference really? Both are artificially prepped, and change over the course of a race distance. Now prepared for the Larson Militia to attack......
 
sdj said:
Aw HELL NAW!!! :p
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I know you're yanking my chain, but why not? Heck, run a 4-banger series! :D Run 'em for eight 15-minute segments with five-minute breaks in between. Award points for each segment but allow each team to run only six segments of the eight, giving teams the option to pick which ones they want to run. Watching 'em watch each other and try to figure out who's going out and who's staying in.

If it's just one of a number of series, you can cherry-pick the ones you want. Just because it has a NASCAR logo on the car doesn't require us to watch. It's just as easy to ignore as F1 or Indy or bikes or ...

Oh, and I'll bet it's easier to find series sponsors for a handful of smaller series with shorter seasons than one big expensive one.
 
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BTW I'm 56 and I 've been watching since the 80's.[/QUOTE]
I am 75 and been watching since 83. Of course here in Canada it wasn't available all the time back then. My first race I watched a guy in a yellow/blue car rim ride the corners and go onto win.
I became a fan of his. There was a young guy trying to race his own car but times were tough for him so he went back to ARCA. He then came back driving for Jack Roush.
I am a race fan first, driver fan second BUT have never been a manufacture fan.
 
Team Penske said:
I am a race fan first, driver fan second
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This. The issue with being a fan of an individual driver is sooner or later he's going to leave the sport (hopefully by retiring). Some people have problems finding a new driver and wind up leaving. (The same thing happens in other sports.)

That's the problem with pushing personalities; you have to keep finding new product to sell, persuading fans of the old to buy the new. If NASCAR pushes the sport itself, driver turnover doesn't have as much of an effect.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I know you're yanking my chain, but why not? Heck, run a 4-banger series! :D Run 'em for eight 15-minute segments with five-minute breaks in between. Award points for each segment but allow each team to run only six segments of the eight, giving teams the option to pick which ones they want to run. Watching 'em watch each other and try to figure out who's going out and who's staying in.

If it's just one of a number of series, you can cherry-pick the ones you want. Just because it has a NASCAR logo on the car doesn't require us to watch. It's just as easy to ignore as F1 or Indy or bikes or ...

Oh, and I'll bet it's easier to find series sponsors for a handful of smaller series with shorter seasons than one big expensive one.
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When I go to a local Super Late Model Race, I endure the continuous caution cluster of the 4 cylinders and 6 cylinder races waiting for the main event. If the Late Models are not running I do not go. But hay, that's just me. :)
 
sdj said:
When I go to a local Super Late Model Race, I endure the continuous caution cluster of the 4 cylinders and 6 cylinder races waiting for the main event. If the Late Models are not running I do not go. But hay, that's just me. :)
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I find it puzzling that the number of cylinders has a direct effect on the number of cautions.

Is the Yellow Fever due to the number of cylinders, or because those drivers are less experienced? If you put the same guys in LMs, would they have the same number of cautions? Having the same number of cylinders doesn't seem to keep Xfinity drivers from having more accidents than Cup drivers on the same track.

Mind you, I'm just tossing out format ideas. I don't expect NASCAR to change its 'Everyone should enjoy this form of racing' approach.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I find it puzzling that the number of cylinders has a direct effect on the number of cautions.

Is the Yellow Fever due to the number of cylinders, or because those drivers are less experienced? If you put the same guys in LMs, would they have the same number of cautions? Having the same number of cylinders doesn't seem to keep Xfinity drivers from having more accidents than Cup drivers on the same track.

Mind you, I'm just tossing out format ideas. I don't expect NASCAR to change its 'Everyone should enjoy this form of racing' approach.
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The number of cylinders has no bearing on cautions. It is just that the lower class races are caution fests 98% of the time and are boring to me to watch. Street Stock class and above are good races most of the time. The 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder thing is that I am a V8 guy and do not like the sound of the 4 and V6 engines. But, as a race fan that is my choice. I know a lot of people like the lower classes, I am not one of them. To each his own.
 
StandOnIt said:
so manny say they aren't ok with the constant tweaking/changes as they call it, but the VHT and the tire dragon is ok? If I remember some around here mostly had nothing good to say about the stick um and even less enthusiasm for the tire dragon. But nobody around here would admit they weren't for any of those. If it wasn't for constantly trying different things to improve the racing, and yeah some of them aren't going to be a success, but many many changes have been made that are very positive and they have made the racing better.
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This is really damn well said. I suppose I will always be on the side of changes that don't mess too much with the car. The VHT....and even the roval don't bother me. Mess with MY cars though......Nope.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
This. The issue with being a fan of an individual driver is sooner or later he's going to leave the sport (hopefully by retiring). Some people have problems finding a new driver and wind up leaving. (The same thing happens in other sports.)

That's the problem with pushing personalities; you have to keep finding new product to sell, persuading fans of the old to buy the new. If NASCAR pushes the sport itself, driver turnover doesn't have as much of an effect.
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I was lucky, went from Dale to Dale Jr. Junior pissed me off when he said he would rather lose with family than win with someone else. Must have been true cause he didn't win much after that. I liked a driver he had with his Xfinity team. Cup drivers like Edwards and Hamlin sure tried to give him a hard time. I figured they were afraid of his talent so I chose him as my next driver. Now I added Blaney to the list. Here I am a Penske fan.
 
StandOnIt said:
I don't remember a year when there hasn't been car changes. It isn't normal. This goes on back to the beginning.
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Agreed. I would like to see more adjustability. I think what we have lost is the ability to customize the car to the driver. So, when we have a package that pushes, and our driver hates tight, the balance of power is shifted. Which leads me to a question....Let's take this year's rules package which runs tight. Which drivers are so talented that they can drive around a tendency they hate, and which ones must have a team be able to engineer out the tendency that the package demands......Or, does one or the other...or both not even exist?
 
Revman said:
Agreed. I would like to see more adjustability. I think what we have lost is the ability to customize the car to the driver. So, when we have a package that pushes, and our driver hates tight, the balance of power is shifted. Which leads me to a question....Let's take this year's rules package which runs tight. Which drivers are so talented that they can drive around a tendency they hate, and which ones must have a team be able to engineer out the tendency that the package demands......Or, does one or the other...or both not even exist?
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What adjustability do they need? They have a thousand combinations of springs, shocks, track bar, sway bars, upper and lower control arms, truck arms, tow, camber, weight placement, wedge, bite, cross.. :D What do you mean by "this package runs tight"?
 
If ya believe that I guess it is a good thing. I don't think at this point in the game it makes much difference either way. The have's show up with a notebook and come off of the trailer pretty good. The announcers try to make a big deal out of it like it is something mysterious but it really isn't. Teams makes a practice run with a qualifying package, and then spend most of their time tweaking a bit up or down during practice to see if they can squeeze a tenth or two with adjustments.
 
Spotter22 said:
What adjustability do they need? They have a thousand combinations of springs, shocks, track bar, sway bars, upper and lower control arms, truck arms, tow, camber, weight placement, wedge, bite, cross.. :D What do you mean by "this package runs tight"?
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As I understand it, this year's package trends toward tight....and this leads me to the question....Can teams tune the tight out, or do drivers simply have to adjust....or does it even matter? Larry Mac has commented that he feels that if a given package has a tendency, the box is so tight these days that there isn't a ton that can be done to change that tendency. What do you think? Additionally, I have heard (I think Larry Mac) suggested that this year's package is similar in effect to the 2014 package where Harvick was as dominate (maybe more) than he is this year.
 
Revman said:
As I understand it, this year's package trends toward tight....and this leads me to the question....Can teams tune the tight out, or do drivers simply have to adjust....or does it even matter? Larry Mac has commented that he feels that if a given package has a tendency, the box is so tight these days that there isn't a ton that can be done to change that tendency. What do you think? Additionally, I have heard (I think Larry Mac) suggested that this year's package is similar in effect to the 2014 package where Harvick was as dominate (maybe more) than he is this year.
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I'm completely lost with what Larry is talking about. I dont think any "package" can be attributed soley as loose or tight because their are way to many adjustments that can be made. Sure you can get tight behind someone but that doesnt mean the car is tight every where. Just too many variables to say this package leans one way or the other. Tires play a huge role in this also.
 
Spotter22 said:
I'm completely lost with what Larry is talking about. I dont think any "package" can be attributed soley as loose or tight because their are way to many adjustments that can be made. Sure you can get tight behind someone but that doesnt mean the car is tight every where. Just too many variables to say this package leans one way or the other. Tires play a huge role in this also.
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yeah me also, unless there are some direct quotes or an article to read, it is hearsay?
 
gnomesayin said:
Racing trends toward those who get out in front. Competition trends toward those who get out in front. Life trends toward those who get out in front.

Apparently NASCAR racing should be the bizarro world exception that trends toward those who fall behind.
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who said that?
 
StandOnIt said:
yeah me also, unless there are some direct quotes or an article to read, it is hearsay?
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Call it hearsay....NASCAR Radio.....cannot find a link, but I will keep trying.
 
Revman said:
Call it hearsay....NASCAR Radio.....cannot find a link, but I will keep trying.
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what doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me is in Harvick's case, this is the second year for the car. Last year for part of the season they were running modified frames designed for the Chevy motor. Another thing this car isn't close to the 2014 package and Harvick was running a Chevy which was a totally different animal even if it was similar..and it wasn't. Another thing spoiler heights, there is no way those packages are anywhere's close to being the same


upload_2018-8-2_14-46-45.png


http://buildingspeed.org/blog/2016/...cks-problem-how-much-downforce-is-just-right/
 
In fact it is complete the opposite, which tends to agree with the opinions that the cars can be adjusted to just about drive any way the teams want them to drive
 
StandOnIt said:
In fact it is complete the opposite, which tends to agree with the opinions that the cars can be adjusted to just about drive any way the teams want them to drive
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Absolutely. I've never had a car that was tight and that was it from then on. Just too many things to do to loosen them up and vice versa. I'll take that tight car and raise the track bar 2 inches and dial about 60% rear brake and I bet it wont push then. lol
 
Pretty much illustrates my opinion that high or low D/F doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference.

Watch Byron run down catch and pass KyleD at Indy


 
gnomesayin said:
Racing trends toward those who get out in front. Competition trends toward those who get out in front. Life trends toward those who get out in front.

Apparently NASCAR racing should be the bizarro world exception that trends toward those who fall behind.
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That's the world today, don't award winning so much, but award the competition with a trophy for participating.
 
Therein lays the problems society has created for the sole purpose of worming out of parental responsibilities.
 
Mopardh9 said:
We'll that is what it boils down to, making closer competition awarding everyone a happy trophy, it's not off topic.
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Thank you and yes it does effect every decision to some degree.
Bill France Senior built a program to make money. His son continued that tradition and also wanted to keep total control of the racing. Brian wants to give everyone a trophy so he can have one also. The first two to manage Nascar did want to see good racing and so they allowed engineering and what we call cheating to have some leeway. Brian wants to take engineers out of the picture along with the CC so that everyone is the same running bumper to bumper.
 
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