Good discussion about what makes "good racing"

Team Penske said:
Thank you and yes it does effect every decision to some degree.
Bill France Senior built a program to make money. His son continued that tradition and also wanted to keep total control of the racing. Brian wants to give everyone a trophy so he can have one also. The first two to manage Nascar did want to see good racing and so they allowed engineering and what we call cheating to have some leeway. Brian wants to take engineers out of the picture along with the CC so that everyone is the same running bumper to bumper.
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Spec racing essentially
 
Spotter22 said:
How do you like the trucks?
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Not as good as it used to be since they went to the major venues, I liked it much better when they went to venues like Colorado National and didn't go to the 2.5s and a lot of the 1.5s. I think I've watched a total of 3 races this year. The trucks have gotten too far away from their roots.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Not as good as it used to be since they went to the major venues, I liked it much better when they went to venues like Colorado National and didn't go to the 2.5s and a lot of the 1.5s. I think I've watched a total of 3 races this year. The trucks have gotten too far away from their roots.
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You should watch more, the racing is fantastic.
 
Spotter22 said:
What adjustability do they need? They have a thousand combinations of springs, shocks, track bar, sway bars, upper and lower control arms, truck arms, tow, camber, weight placement, wedge, bite, cross.. :D What do you mean by "this package runs tight"?
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Do not want to discuss a vehicle pushing or being loose. But believe Nascar does regulate springs, and possibly shocks. Maybe not the rebound percentages and such on the shocks but the bump stops have been regulated.

I would rather they go back to spring and shock choice by the driver or car chief. NASCAR can have an approved selection...say 1200#, 1000#, 900#, 800#, 700#, 600#, 500#, 400#, 350#, 300#, 250#, 200#, and 150# springs and four different shocks for the front and four different shocks for the back...sealed with no valve customizing. Raise the minimum car height, keep the low drag rear spoiler, get rid of the track dragging front spoiler with a chin spoiler like on a street car, but allow an inch lower front ride height than the rest of the car.

Then let 'em go at it.
 
Rear spring and shock choices were regulated at the plate tracks until this season. Not anymore and not anywhere else.

Beyond that, NASCAR won't be raising ride heights or "getting those cars back up in the air" in my lifetime. Or yours.
 
OldTimer said:
Do not want to discuss a vehicle pushing or being loose. But believe Nascar does regulate springs, and possibly shocks. Maybe not the rebound percentages and such on the shocks but the bump stops have been regulated.

I would rather they go back to spring and shock choice by the driver or car chief. NASCAR can have an approved selection...say 1200#, 1000#, 900#, 800#, 700#, 600#, 500#, 400#, 350#, 300#, 250#, 200#, and 150# springs and four different shocks for the front and four different shocks for the back...sealed with no valve customizing. Raise the minimum car height, keep the low drag rear spoiler, get rid of the track dragging front spoiler with a chin spoiler like on a street car, but allow an inch lower front ride height than the rest of the car.

Then let 'em go at it.
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spring and shock choice. smh lets get back to 20 thousand buck shocks that pop up after the race and if they don't? cucumbered. uh nah.
 
Spotter22 said:
You should watch more, the racing is fantastic.
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That's a matter of opinion, and mine differs from yours. The trucks have low power, high drag, and high downforce. Consequently, the racing is aero-dominated with less reliance on driver skill. A slower driver can fall behind on every corner, and aided by the draft, catch up again on every straight.

To me, "fantastic racing" requires a higher degree of difficulty. I want to see highly skilled drivers working hard to generate good lap times, and working even harder to get ahead of the other racers. In terms of potential for great racing... Trucks, Xfinity, and Cup are... Good, Better, and Best.
 
What makes for good racing? It would be numerous passes for the lead. When clean air doesn’t mean the guy out front in a restart generally isn’t going to be passed once they got out there.
 
LewTheShoe said:
That's a matter of opinion, and mine differs from yours. The trucks have low power, high drag, and high downforce. Consequently, the racing is aero-dominated with less reliance on driver skill. A slower driver can fall behind on every corner, and aided by the draft, catch up again on every straight.

To me, "fantastic racing" requires a higher degree of difficulty. I want to see highly skilled drivers working hard to generate good lap times, and working even harder to get ahead of the other racers. In terms of potential for great racing... Trucks, Xfinity, and Cup are... Good, Better, and Best.
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guess you missed the part about all of the side by side racing and passing that the truck series produces. The youngsters do make more mistakes than the cup drivers which leads sometimes to some pretty interesting fails going for it, but overall the racing is closer and very entertaining. It's about entertaining right?
 
I've read here several times that the trucks were the best race of the weekend. And sometimes it was actually other people posting it.
 
Towmater said:
What makes for good racing? It would be numerous passes for the lead. When clean air doesn’t mean the guy out front in a restart generally isn’t going to be passed once they got out there.
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Which of the several professional motorsports series currently operating have races during which there are numerous passes for the lead?
 
StandOnIt said:
smh lets get back to 20 thousand buck shocks that pop up after the race and if they don't?
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Was not referring to those...everyone has a choice of the same springs...it they do not match the NASCAR spec...the team owner is put in front of a firing squad and shot.

Same thing with shocks...you have a choice of welded steel Monroe 50/50, 60/40, 70/30, or 90/10 for the front, all valved according to the manufacturer, cannot take them apart...$50 a piece. Same for the back but different valve...just like in 1975.

Body configuration same as the 1985-1993 era. Same ride height...real hood, rear deck, and hood. Oh yeah...and bias ply tires...loved the twenty mile speed difference at Darlington.
 
aunty dive said:
Rear spring and shock choices were regulated at the plate tracks until this season. Not anymore and not anywhere else.

Beyond that, NASCAR won't be raising ride heights or "getting those cars back up in the air" in my lifetime. Or yours.
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Why not...back to the future...like in '89 or '92? Tell me why not. Get away from the twisted blob's.
 
Some of you fellas would be excellent sprint car fans.
 
aunty dive said:
Some of you fellas would be excellent sprint car fans.
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They don't rub enough...but I still enjoy them.

Also do not like the format and rules. Hate that they need to be pushed to start. The old 360 series that had starters was better.
 
StandOnIt said:
guess you missed the part about all of the side by side racing and passing that the truck series produces... It's about entertaining right?
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No, I didn't miss that, but I'm not really entertained by cars or trucks running side-by-side and/or passing each other as they drone around flat-footed WFO. Low power, high drag, high downforce racing is not what gets my adrenaline pumping. I'd much rather see the Cup formula of the last three years (more power, less drag, less downforce), where 200 MPH on the straight becomes a hard-to-do 145 MPH in the corners... braking, turning, feathering the gas off apex, finnnaaallly getting back to full throttle for the back straight. I'd rather see that skill-based racing, even if it means less passing. And BTW, there has been no shortage of passing in Cup in the last few years except at 2 or 3 of the worst single-groove tracks.
 
LewTheShoe said:
No. I didn't miss that, but I'm not really entertained by cars or trucks running side-by-side and/or passing each other as they drone around flat-footed WFO. Low power, high drag, high downforce racing is not what gets my adrenaline pumping. I'd much rather see the Cup formula of the last three years (more power, less drag, less downforce), where 200 MPH on the straight becomes a hard-to-do 145 MPH in the corners... braking, turning, feathering the gas off apex, finnnaaallly getting back to full throttle for the back straight. I'd rather see that skill-based racing, even if it means less passing. And BTW, there has been no shortage of passing in Cup in the last few years except at 2 or 3 of the worst single-groove tracks.
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They have reduced the horse power (shish by using a tapered spacer in 2014) same as the trucks 08 and Xfinities BTW. but we will continue to differ.
 
LewTheShoe said:
That's a matter of opinion, and mine differs from yours. The trucks have low power, high drag, and high downforce. Consequently, the racing is aero-dominated with less reliance on driver skill. A slower driver can fall behind on every corner, and aided by the draft, catch up again on every straight.

To me, "fantastic racing" requires a higher degree of difficulty. I want to see highly skilled drivers working hard to generate good lap times, and working even harder to get ahead of the other racers. In terms of potential for great racing... Trucks, Xfinity, and Cup are... Good, Better, and Best.
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Non Aero tracks like Gateway, Martinsville Iowa Eldora, etc.. have been really good. And I'll have to admit with the Spec engine even the Aero Tracks have been really good.
 
StandOnIt said:
They have reduced the horse power (shish by using a tapered spacer in 2014) same as the trucks 08 and Xfinities BTW. but we will continue to differ.
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Yes, Cup motors made 850 BHP in 2014, and this was reduced to 725 BHP by the tapered spacer in 2015 and beyond. But that 725 is way more than the Trucks have, coupled with much lower drag and much lower downforce on Cup cars. That is my point.

BTW, I was strongly opposed to the Cup horsepower reduction when it happened in 2015. But as drag and downforce were subsequently cut back sharply, the effect of the power reduction was largely mitigated. Current Cup cars have throttle response and acceleration off the corners like they did in 2014 (when they had more power but also more drag and downforce).
 
aunty dive said:
Rear spring and shock choices were regulated at the plate tracks until this season. Not anymore and not anywhere else.

Beyond that, NASCAR won't be raising ride heights or "getting those cars back up in the air" in my lifetime. Or yours.
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OldTimer said:
Why not...back to the future...like in '89 or '92? Tell me why not. Get away from the twisted blob's.
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Vr
 
StandOnIt said:
what doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me is in Harvick's case, this is the second year for the car. Last year for part of the season they were running modified frames designed for the Chevy motor. Another thing this car isn't close to the 2014 package and Harvick was running a Chevy which was a totally different animal even if it was similar..and it wasn't. Another thing spoiler heights, there is no way those packages are anywhere's close to being the same


View attachment 35635

http://buildingspeed.org/blog/2016/...cks-problem-how-much-downforce-is-just-right/
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I do think you have a very good point about the SHR transition to Ford beginning last year. As I am sure you have seen, I have a love/hate relationship with NASCAR Radio. I cannot tell you how much time was spent at that time minimizing that transition. They were wrong. I agree with you.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Yes, Cup motors made 850 BHP in 2014, and this was reduced to 725 BHP by the tapered spacer in 2015 and beyond. But that 725 is way more than the Trucks have, coupled with much lower drag and much lower downforce on Cup cars. That is my point.

BTW, I was strongly opposed to the Cup horsepower reduction when it happened in 2015. But as drag and downforce were subsequently cut back sharply, the effect of the power reduction was largely mitigated. Current Cup cars have throttle response and acceleration off the corners like they did in 2014 (when they had more power but also more drag and downforce).
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I can argue the racing hasn't changed very much with high or low D/F speeds are essentially they same. The laps led with is a rough measure of passes for the lead are again basically the same. There is no blinding speed gained with this latest low downforce package or super human driver skill. It is get out front by hook or crook.
This will probably be shu shued, I don't care but the data doesn't lie. The racing isn't reallythat much different as some would lead everybody to believe. I'm not saying it is bad or horrible racing. The biggest change I see lately besides the VHT stick um is the TV coverage. Recently, the cameras are searching everywhere to show cars passing, sometimes focusing on back packers while their is a rare pass for the lead.

Higher D/F package:top 3. Pole speed at a crappy hard to race single file Charlotte 2015? 194.252
2015
Harvick 2291
logano, 1431
Kez 1185

Somebody thinks it is better Fine, somebody thinks it is worse, I think it is about the same.

2016
Truex 1809
Harvick 1384
KDB 1379


low D/F package: top three Laps led: Pole speed at a crappy hard to race single file Charlotte 193.424 mph Less than 1MPH.

2017 KDB and Truex led close to 4500 laps last year.with Larson 1352
2018 so far Kyle and Kev around 2100, and Truex 647
 
aero and money kills auto racing
using real stock cars would solve both problems.
they should at least give it a try at charlotte next spring.
 
nah man I ain't watching Prius racing :rolleyes:..and Jeff do you think he can make it 500 miles on one tankful..well Rick, it's all about tire pressure at this point. We all know the Prius is the most aerodynamic car out there..it's two laps down to the hybrid Ford but the Prius is so much better on fuel mileage..and fuel mileage matters.
 
StandOnIt said:
nah man I ain't watching Prius racing :rolleyes:..and Jeff do you think he can make it 500 miles on one tankful..well Rick, it's all about tire pressure at this point. We all know the Prius is the most aerodynamic car out there..it's two laps down to the hybrid Ford but the Prius is so much better on fuel mileage..and fuel mileage matters.
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real base model mustangs, challengers and camaros would easily beat the prius, so i doubt they would be used.
 
I will say Chevy being competitive would really improve the season. Kyle Larson has led more laps than the rest of the Chevy’s combined! To see 42, 24 and 48 competitive would definitely add to this season. Basically you have the best Toyota’s and best Fords kicking ass weekly
 
LewTheShoe said:
Yes, Cup motors made 850 BHP in 2014, and this was reduced to 725 BHP by the tapered spacer in 2015 and beyond. But that 725 is way more than the Trucks have, coupled with much lower drag and much lower downforce on Cup cars. That is my point.

BTW, I was strongly opposed to the Cup horsepower reduction when it happened in 2015. But as drag and downforce were subsequently cut back sharply, the effect of the power reduction was largely mitigated. Current Cup cars have throttle response and acceleration off the corners like they did in 2014 (when they had more power but also more drag and downforce).
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What do Truck and Xfinity run anyway? I imagine it's still north of 550HP by a not-insignificant amount. Next year is going to be goofy with Xfinity being the hardest car to drive by a good margin, unless they dumb that down too.
 
FLRacingFan said:
What do Truck and Xfinity run anyway? I imagine it's still north of 550HP by a not-insignificant amount. Next year is going to be goofy with Xfinity being the hardest car to drive by a good margin, unless they dumb that down too.
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a couple of the more important complaints are that the cars needed more throttle response and speed, and be harder to drive.
 
FLRacingFan said:
What do Truck and Xfinity run anyway? I imagine it's still north of 550HP by a not-insignificant amount. Next year is going to be goofy with Xfinity being the hardest car to drive by a good margin, unless they dumb that down too.
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and another thing, just because Nascar uses a certain horsepower as a guesstimate, doesn't make it so for a long shot. Cars aren't running almost the same speed since the cup cars went to the tapered spacer because of heroic feats of driving. The engines have been tuned differently to make horsepower at different RPM ranges where the engines live at the different tracks.

“750 hp Engine” Doesn’t Tell the Whole Story
http://buildingspeed.org/blog/2015/02/06/engine-rules-changes-for-2015/
 
StandOnIt said:
a couple of the more important complaints are that the cars needed more throttle response and speed, and be harder to drive.
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We've seen "the package" (that is terrible to write). 450HP to 550HP is NASCAR's idea of increasing throttle response. I don't think NASCAR deserves credit for taking "only" ~200HP away.
 
FLRacingFan said:
We've seen "the package" (that is terrible to write). 450HP to 550HP is NASCAR's idea of increasing throttle response. I don't think NASCAR deserves credit for taking "only" ~200HP away.
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no you haven't, you saw a package not this one
 
probably didn't take the time to look at a simple test between the differences between a restrictor plate and a tapered spacer. It is interesting to some of us nerds and a world of difference

 
StandOnIt said:
no you haven't, you saw a package not this one
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Much more drag/downforce, much less HP is at the heart of whatever "package" NASCAR rolls out next year. Spacer, plate, 450, 550, it doesn't really matter. What does matter is that it is a fundamental shift in philosophy of what NASCAR racing should be - apparently much slower, and much easier to drive than we've seen in a very, very long time.
 
that's your best guess on something you haven't seen. Nothing but assumptions at the point, the degree of any of those assumptions are anybodies guess.
 
This is not the first time Busch has made his thoughts known on the package. Earlier this year, he said of the package, "It’s not necessarily what I signed up for to be a race car driver to bring the whole field closer together and have it dictated by some type of a plate race."

But Saturday at Watkins Glen, his statement was much more cut and dry. “I’m a 100 percent proponent of the current package or something there close to. I’m 100 percent against any sort of higher drag, reducing horsepower-type package. That’s it," he told the assembled media.
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Reigning series champion Truex also offered his thoughts, admitting that he believes the tapered spacer or reduced horsepower will be part of the 2019 package.

“I feel like making the cars easier to drive when you’ve worked your whole career to be one of the top guys in the sport – I feel like it’s taking some of that advantage away from me behind the wheel, so that’s kind of why I don’t like it. I don’t want these cars to be easy to drive. I don’t want to – anybody to be able to get in there and hold it wide open and call it a race. That’s just not the way I see it. I just prefer less downforce, more horsepower – harder to drive cars.”
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https://www.motorsport.com/nascar-cup/news/nascar-truex-kyle-busch-aero-package/3153954/
 
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