Has Kevin Harvick (at age 43) Lost A Step?

Revman said:
What say you @Spotter22?
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Notebooks have several sections, as mentioned ,Initial setup, shocks, springs, gear, left side percentage, cross etc.... The you have feedback, basically the readers digest version of the driver feedback then you have technical section like tire temps, , air pressures, lap count on tires, air pressures, Then a section for changes you make. It varies Im sure but thats kinda what Im used too.
 
I forgot about this. It could be why that later on in the race why Keselowski ended up in the wall. Either it was really hard to push or it was payback and lets see how you handle it.

 
StandOnIt said:
I forgot about this. It could be why that later on in the race why Keselowski ended up in the wall. Either it was really hard to push or it was payback and lets see how you handle it.

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I'll go one further, thats exactly why he ended up in the fence. Kevin just screwed up and took himself out with him.
 
Spotter22 said:
How you handle down the straights is directly effected by how good you get through the corner.
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Totally understand that...but if you are pulling off the corner and flatten out down the straight, one would guess that the terminal exit speed is what it should be.

Trying to find the Kurt Bush interview on Youtube...believe it was on the NASCAR Race Day program. Same thing with Harvick, he does not seem to be lacking in entry (personally I think he backs off early as opposed to someone else's thoughts) speed and his rotation is as good as ever. That and he seems to be able to out pull coming off...then about half way down the straight he seems to level off compared to the Chevy's. In Kurt's instance, he too was able to hold the rotation and exit velocity more so than the other Chevy's...but, based on what he was saying, the Chevy's were "made more equal" and that he (and the team) are working on making that work for the #1. Could be his driving style, could be aero, could be a tad of a horsepower bump...but something changed and unfortunate for Kurt, it appears to affect his Chevy as it has the Fords.

What ever has changed, the Chevy's have made quantum leap in performance since the beginning of the season. Specifically the Hendricks team. The rest...not so much.
 
The Chevys almost couldn't do anything but get better

I think it has a lot to do with how the car is set up. Teams have learned how to trim out the cars so some aren't going to run the same down force as others with a speed/handling trade off. I think Larson and Bowman had the setup for Chicagoland. Larson almost won it last year also. So far at this point in the season no one brand is clearly dominating the series, but IMO the racing is better when all three brands are close enough that any of them can win the race. Personally the jury is out with me. Too soon to tell if the Chevys are back in the hunt. They are definitely running better though.
 
The whole top five at Daytona was comprised of Chevy's. Big day for them.

Corey LaJoie was the top Ford in 6th.

Matt DiBenedetto was the top Toyota in 8th.

This is the first time that the Camaro has won back-to-back races in the Cup Series.
 
OldTimer said:
Totally understand that...but if you are pulling off the corner and flatten out down the straight, one would guess that the terminal exit speed is what it should be.

Trying to find the Kurt Bush interview on Youtube...believe it was on the NASCAR Race Day program. Same thing with Harvick, he does not seem to be lacking in entry (personally I think he backs off early as opposed to someone else's thoughts) speed and his rotation is as good as ever. That and he seems to be able to out pull coming off...then about half way down the straight he seems to level off compared to the Chevy's. In Kurt's instance, he too was able to hold the rotation and exit velocity more so than the other Chevy's...but, based on what he was saying, the Chevy's were "made more equal" and that he (and the team) are working on making that work for the #1. Could be his driving style, could be aero, could be a tad of a horsepower bump...but something changed and unfortunate for Kurt, it appears to affect his Chevy as it has the Fords.

What ever has changed, the Chevy's have made quantum leap in performance since the beginning of the season. Specifically the Hendricks team. The rest...not so much.
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What do you mean? If you roll the center and youre on the mat, you are going to be faster then someone who pushes the center and lifts until the car turns, that tells you nothing about HP.
 
Spotter22 said:
Notebooks have several sections, as mentioned ,Initial setup, shocks, springs, gear, left side percentage, cross etc.... The you have feedback, basically the readers digest version of the driver feedback then you have technical section like tire temps, , air pressures, lap count on tires, air pressures, Then a section for changes you make. It varies Im sure but thats kinda what Im used too.
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Thank you sir.
 
jaqua19 said:
Rev, I'm so glad you are engaging me on this, because I put a lot of thought into it.

This is all just my opinion and observation, and by no means objective fact, but this is my take on it.

Bare with me on this wall of text here, but I think it's great that you bring up Harvick's entry as I talk about Johnson's because these two drivers dominated mile and a half tracks in 2015-early 2016. They had a lot of races for the win, so there's plenty of footage to really see the different approaches to attacking a corner.

So before I go on, let me just specify what I meant by corner entry, and how JJ has a late entry. I'm talking about where on the track the driver starts to turn, where he starts to turn the wheel. How deep a driver drives in, which is when the driver lifts off the gas is a bit different, but both important to setting up a turn.

We know Harvick is a bottom feeder, and we know he really can hold the wheel steady. What I've noticed with Harvick is that he starts his turns early, but lifts really late. He drives relatively deep, and early. So, hes driving the car/holding the wheel steady through the apex vs Johnson who is "sliding" it through the late landing. This is noticeable when Harvick has been trailing Jimmie, and we are on the 4s roof cam. I've noticed that Harvick closes up on entry...and despite them both running the bottom, when Harvick is landing on the bottom, the 48 is still a half lane off the bottom and hasn't landed yet.

In my opinion, what a driver complains about is very telling. When Jimmie has a fast car, and they are "struggling", or unable to get the handle, it's loose. When Harvick is fast and dominates...the complains after the race, what does he always say? "It just got real tight". I don't think Harvick likes a loose car because he will not be able to steady the wheel with his early, and deep entry. So as I see it, Harvick needs/prefers a car with even weight distribution that is VERY stable and neutral on landing because in the apex of the corner, he's doing less "wheeling" than say Kyle Busch (who imo' has a more wheeling style version of Harvick's driving)..and more so just holding the wheel steady as his car cuts through the corner.

As a result, I think this shows Harvick's limitations, and strengths as a driver. He inherently may not get as good of a drive off as Jimmie would, or a driver who has a more gentle approach to the corner..Harvick has been able to dominate lately because his cars have speed. He KILLS you in the first 3/5s of the turn. The speed of the cars is compensation for the lack of drive off...WHICH is why he performed worse at RCR.. rarely did the cars have the speed to maximize Harvick's talents.

Harvick doesn't wheel it through the corner, he wheels it before the car lands, and just holds it off the corner. And he knows what lines will put up fast times. Imo, I don't think he is the raw talent that Kyle, Jimmie, Brad, Tony etc were. I think as a raw talent, he's a tick below. However, he knows what he needs out of his car about as good as anyone, and he knows how to drive the track, relative to how his car is handling. I think that's what makes him a really really good race car driver and while he may not have the raw talent as Kyle, it was enough to make him the best driver in NASCAR from 2014-2018. No disrespect to Kyle, who had Harvick beat by one or two wins during that time span...but Harvick had more top 5s, 10s, average finish and laps lead than anyone else in NASCAR during those 4 years.

So yeah, that's how he gets it done, imo.

Agreed about TV too..people play games, and may notice in real life, some tracks have two or 3 grooves of racing..which means there are 2 or 3 ways to drive a track. As we've discussed, that's not true! There are many ways a driver can drive one of those 3 grooves, and are probably 15+ different ways a driver can drive a track. It sucks that we don't hear about this.

I made a thread a little while ago..maybe a few months back, about the driving style of drivers , trying to stimulate this discussion, but it didn't get many hits

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I really enjoyed this post. Thank you. So, are you of the opinion that Kyle and Harvick have similar driving styles, but that Kyle is maybe a bit more aggressive entry through center? I know that you feel Jimmie has drive off on Kevin (and maybe Kyle), but what does he look like on entry to center. I would love to keep going with this....Let me know if you would prefer DM, or a new thread.
 
Revman said:
I really enjoyed this post. Thank you. So, are you of the opinion that Kyle and Harvick have similar driving styles, but that Kyle is maybe a bit more aggressive entry through center? I know that you feel Jimmie has drive off on Kevin (and maybe Kyle), but what does he look like on entry to center. I would love to keep going with this....Let me know if you would prefer DM, or a new thread.
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Let's dm about this!

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Spotter22 said:
What do you mean? If you roll the center and youre on the mat, you are going to be faster then someone who pushes the center and lifts until the car turns, that tells you nothing about HP.
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True....but they are not "pushing" and they are on the mat...and still the Chevy's were stronger after the Ford's flattened out. It was in the telemetry... they were pretty equal in acceleration up to a certain point, then the separation began towards the end of the straight. Entry speed equalized, center roll was equivalent, exit speed very close....and then a the straight again. The terminal speed was one to two miles an hour faster at the lift off than the Fords, yet behind the Fords half way down the straight.

Somehow, Kurt has not benefitted from the "NASCAR allowing the Chevys being more equal". Been to busy to find the youtube of the interview...loved it when he said "Hendricks gets everything first from NASCAR".
 
OldTimer said:
True....but they are not "pushing" and they are on the mat...and still the Chevy's were stronger after the Ford's flattened out. It was in the telemetry... they were pretty equal in acceleration up to a certain point, then the separation began towards the end of the straight. Entry speed equalized, center roll was equivalent, exit speed very close....and then a the straight again. The terminal speed was one to two miles an hour faster at the lift off than the Fords, yet behind the Fords half way down the straight.

Somehow, Kurt has not benefitted from the "NASCAR allowing the Chevys being more equal". Been to busy to find the youtube of the interview...loved it when he said "Hendricks gets everything first from NASCAR".
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I dont know if they were pushing or loose or Push loose, the point is if one car is handling better they will be better down the straight. You also dont know what gear they are running which makes a difference. The telemetry you see on TV doesnt tell you how the car is handling so its also a non factor on determining HP which btw, they keep these things dyno'd all the time and are within 5 hp. Yeah, I'd like to see this supposed interview also.
 
Spotter22 said:
I dont know if they were pushing or loose or Push loose, the point is if one car is handling better they will be better down the straight. You also dont know what gear they are running which makes a difference. The telemetry you see on TV doesnt tell you how the car is handling so its also a non factor on determining HP which btw, they keep these things dyno'd all the time and are within 5 hp. Yeah, I'd like to see this supposed interview also.
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"A well handling car flatters horsepower while an ill handling one insults it."--David Wilson
 
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Spotter22 said:
I dont know if they were pushing or loose or Push loose, the point is if one car is handling better they will be better down the straight. You also dont know what gear they are running which makes a difference. The telemetry you see on TV doesnt tell you how the car is handling so its also a non factor on determining HP which btw, they keep these things dyno'd all the time and are within 5 hp. Yeah, I'd like to see this supposed interview also.
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They were regulated to 550HP...that is it. If a car can stay with or beat the other out of the corner and half way down the straight as they reach that 550HP peak...and the one pulls away then, I would say one has more HP than the other. All other things being equal. The Chevy's did not have more speed through the apex and certainly not from the apex off. Pretty telling in the telemetry from the CPU's not the media junk.

Note on tracks that have the 750HP chip...the difference evaporates. As of right now...but based on the performance of HMS at Loudon, I expect that to change too.
 
OldTimer said:
They were regulated to 550HP...that is it. If a car can stay with or beat the other out of the corner and half way down the straight as they reach that 550HP peak...and the one pulls away then, I would say one has more HP than the other. All other things being equal. The Chevy's did not have more speed through the apex and certainly not from the apex off. Pretty telling in the telemetry from the CPU's not the media junk.

Note on tracks that have the 750HP chip...the difference evaporates. As of right now...but based on the performance of HMS at Loudon, I expect that to change too.
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It's two different sizes of tapered spacer reducing air flow to different degrees. The HP numbers are targets and estimates. What chip?
 
gnomesayin said:
It's two different sizes of tapered spacer reducing air flow to different degrees. The HP numbers are targets and estimates. What chip?
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You are correct sir...did not mean to imply that the ECU/CPU unit determined the horsepower...but the telemetry of the performance:

" NASCAR Cup Series engines carry a Freescale-provided electronic control unit, but traction control and anti-lock brakes are prohibited. Live telemetry is used only for television broadcasts, but the data can be recorded from the ECU to the computer if the car is in the garage and not on the track."
 
FLRacingFan said:
Does Jeff Gordon even care anymore?

Has Kevin Harvick lost a step?

Chase is in a slump. Any reason to freak?



Who’s gonna start the Jimmie Johnson thread that turns his season around?
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I never got a thank you for getting Jeff remotivated, back on track and giving a damn and caring about it again.
But that's okay, the Lawd knows I got through to Jeff.
 
Greg said:
He would have more titles if he would have gotten with a better team earlier.
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It's a testament to Harvick's talent that he was really the only driver that stayed with Johnson at his zenith in 06, 08 and 10. He also was there in 11 and 13. All of this in RCR Equipment..... its apparent at this stage he was that team at that point in time. Its unbelievable really the run he had with RCR in the 29.
 
Snappy D said:
It's a testament to Harvick's talent that he was really the only driver that stayed with Johnson at his zenith in 06, 08 and 10. He also was there in 11 and 13. All of this in RCR Equipment..... its apparent at this stage he was that team at that point in time. Its unbelievable really the run he had with RCR in the 29.
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I loved that old 29 car, but it was shocking to see his talent put on display from day one in the 4 car.
You could say the same thing for a lot of drivers, but I'll always wonder what his numbers would be if he had top cars from day one like Johnson, Gordon, or Kyle did.
 
Switchback said:
I loved that old 29 car, but it was shocking to see his talent put on display from day one in the 4 car.
You could say the same thing for a lot of drivers, but I'll always wonder what his numbers would be if he had top cars from day one like Johnson, Gordon, or Kyle did.
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I agree 100% not sure if JJ would have 7 if Harvick was at Gibbs or even Hendrick. He did amazing stuff at RCR...which also makes me roll my eyes a bit at those who want to retire Harv. The 4 with the team built around him and Rodney this is Harvick's time to shine. I could easily see him racing into his 50's, why walk away from something this great?
 
Losing a step is the price we pay for aging, some are able to deal with it better than others.

We should probably get a thread started for Kurt, and Brad, Ryan Newman and Clint too.
 
Brad? He's a consistent winner no way anyone should be thinking of putting him out to pasture. Kurt, maybe but he sure is getting a lot more out of that car than McMurray. Still, it reminds me of when he was at SHR. More often than not there was always 2 or 3 cars that were just better than his. He's good for a win most seasons but it doesnt seem like much more than that.

Newman is getting what he can from that ride which is better and more consistent than anyone else on that team since probably Greg Biffle left but he never did much at SHR. One win maybe at Indianapolis? I remember that one in 2013 *I think it was* I recall he had a helluva race car and was all over that steering wheel. He just wasnt going to be denied that day he was the best car and he won. But that's the only one I remember that he was just a badass but that's 6+ years ago. He got a win more recently at Phoenix I think in the RCR car he didnt have a great car that day but a win is a win.

Bowyer, he should be winning this year. He's not. Not even getting what he ought to be out of that car. It should consistently be a top 10 ride. Of the 4 drivers he is the one performing the worst.
 
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