It could always be worse.

At this point, NASCAR is almost in a no win situation. No matter what changes are made, the majority of the posters in this forum will have issues with those changes. Some of us would welcome a return to the pre-Chase era but NASCAR/FOX/NBC/Monster won't allow that to happen. We may as well be complaining about the DH in baseball.

I agree that drivers should be allowed to showcase their personalities more but in this world of "I'd like to thank my (sponsor) (manufacturer)" while sipping my (beverage sponsor), I realize that is nearly impossible. Whatever happens, Brian France will have made happen and if the long decline continues, I'll still root for my favorite driver/s until the sport bores me and I tune out and stop caring like so many fans already have.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Need to let drivers be themselves. The mid 2000s when the sport was still solid was post Dale Earnhardt, yes, but it was also a holdover from the 80s and 90s with Jarrett, Rusty, the Labontes, Rudd, etc, and those guys were from an era when you could get out of the car and be a real human being and not just a corporate face with pre-determined little speeches. Let them fight and make enemies, as well as lasting friendships. Let the emotions come out and be real either way. That's what the sport lacks since then.
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This thread is interesting, but this post is nonsense. Whenever a driver acts, speaks, or even thinks something a tiny bit controversial, that driver gets absolutely skewered by the fans. It's not Nascar forcing the drivers to be bland. It is us fans. Read the RF threads whenever Kyle Busch frowns after a race! Or BKez! And it is 100 times worse in other social media besides RF.
 
LewTheShoe said:
This thread is interesting, but this post is nonsense. Whenever a driver acts, speaks, or even thinks something a tiny bit controversial, that driver gets absolutely skewered by the fans. It's not Nascar forcing the drivers to be bland. It is us fans. Read the RF threads whenever Kyle Busch frowns after a race! Or BKez! And it is 100 times worse in other social media besides RF.
Click to expand...

You can be controversial or emotional or whatever without being raked through the coals. Drivers were never bland until the 2000s. It just so happens that Busch and Kez are more polarizing figures than your typical drivers. I'm not a fan of either driver but I'm glad they speak their minds and act how they want.
 
If I worked at Belmont Abbey College or some other obscure place, and was organizing a motorsports symposium, I'd definitely want Humpy Wheeler on my panel. He always has provocative ideas.

I do believe Nascar should have Cup races in both Canada and Mexico ASAP. Not doing those two amounts to dereliction of duty, IMO.
 
hidesert cowboy said:
Well if you really knew him you would respect him and what he says. He has more experience promoting races in his pinky than many of the so called experts. The guy is a NASCAR legend.
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I'm positive that aunty dive knows as much or more than you about Humpy Wheeler.

I'm not interested in engaging in idolatry. Of course he's a legendary promoter and figure. He made a bunch of half-baked comments about desperate wholesale changes which nobody would agree with if Brian France had said them. I'm focusing on what he said, not blindly worshiping the ground he walks on. Humpy was a true innovator. Having been close to people with innovative minds in my life, I know that they are also wrong a lot and blow a lot of smoke. There are often four or five failed ideas for every visionary one, and that's just how it works.

Here from 2007 is Humpy's vision of NASCAR circa 2032. We're ten years closer to 2032 now, and maybe as we get closer still you'll start to see what I'm describing above about this amazing predictive power.

http://www.charlottemotorspeedway.com/fans/news/642680.html
 
gnomesayin said:
Yes, this is the case. One of the cardinal rules of business is that if you are not executing well in your home market, you shouldn't even be thinking about expanding elsewhere.
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The home market has changed so much. Maybe it makes sense to look for other markets that are like what the home one once was.
 
FLRacingFan said:
... IndyCar has been hearing proposals from foreign venues trying to get a winter date for a while now ...
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This triggered a completely different thought in my head. A rarity, I know.

When is the off-season for soccer in Europe? Could an international schedule work during US football season? Would it help international TV ratings and put more butts in the seats?
 
hidesert cowboy said:
Well if you really knew him you would respect him and what he says. He has more experience promoting races in his pinky than many of the so called experts. The guy is a NASCAR legend.
Click to expand...
Experience doesn't automatically make anyone right. Respecting someone doesn't mean you can't point out when he may be wrong.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I do believe Nascar should have Cup races in both Canada and Mexico ASAP. Not doing those two amounts to dereliction of duty, IMO.
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As I recall, the Busch races in Mexico City turned into a logistical nightmare.

I don't know jack squat about Mexican racing facilities. Besides Hermanos Rodriguez, Is there any other venue capable of supporting a Cup race?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
This triggered a completely different thought in my head. A rarity, I know.

When is the off-season for soccer in Europe? Could an international schedule work during US football season? Would it help international TV ratings and put more butts in the seats?
Click to expand...
Domestic seasons usually run from August-May. During midweek there are often domestic cups or the two UEFA tournaments (Champions League/Europa League) being played as well, and the occasional break for international friendlies or qualifiers. There's not a whole lot of downtime.
 
LewTheShoe said:
This thread is interesting, but this post is nonsense. Whenever a driver acts, speaks, or even thinks something a tiny bit controversial, that driver gets absolutely skewered by the fans. It's not Nascar forcing the drivers to be bland. It is us fans. Read the RF threads whenever Kyle Busch frowns after a race! Or BKez! And it is 100 times worse in other social media besides RF.
Click to expand...

You need to realize that hate is not the opposite of love. If Brad says something that sets a lot of fans off, well then guess what, that means that those fans still care either way. It ignites passion and debate and drama. That's good for the sport and a sign of good health.

The day that Brad says something controversial and nobody bats an eye is when we know we have a problem on our hands because that would mean that nobody cares anymore, which is the true opposite of love. Zero passion at all. But drivers pissing people off sometimes is a good thing and keeps our pulses going.
 
gnomesayin said:
I'm positive that aunty dive knows as much or more than you about Humpy Wheeler.

I'm not interested in engaging in idolatry. Of course he's a legendary promoter and figure. He made a bunch of half-baked comments about desperate wholesale changes which nobody would agree with if Brian France had said them. I'm focusing on what he said, not blindly worshiping the ground he walks on. Humpy was a true innovator. Having been close to people with innovative minds in my life, I know that they are also wrong a lot and blow a lot of smoke. There are often four or five failed ideas for every visionary one, and that's just how it works.

Here from 2007 is Humpy's vision of NASCAR circa 2032. We're ten years closer to 2032 now, and maybe as we get closer still you'll start to see what I'm describing above about this amazing predictive power.

http://www.charlottemotorspeedway.com/fans/news/642680.html
Click to expand...

If Humpy is so smart and knowledgeable, why is/was he only a fired employee?
Let me know when he starts walking on water.:D
 
What is so stupid to me is those who are proponents for change and improving the racing. If you were able to improve the racing (which I do not agree is broken), would you need format changes? Seems to me that NASCAR et al. is about ready to reach for change as a means of compensating for what some consider to be a poor racing product. This is what road course racing is....a format where the aero issues are not relevant. The format makes the show--not the racing.
 
Many of the things that could go wrong with a winning car don't exist anymore. Used to be a car got a big lead and all I could think about is "will the engine last?" In many cases a car that had a real advantage motor wise never saw the finish line. Those things are now history. Today when the end is in site, the big question is "when will they throw the caution?'
 
IDK why emotion and drivers behaving badly is important for some people as I don't watch watch hockey or football to see athletes fight, argue and and act likes horsesasses. I watch those sports to enjoy the game and see players make plays and the coaches call a good game.

Expansion to other countries may be an enjoyable pipe dream but the product you are thinking of supplying shouldn't be a dumpster fire in its home market.

Don't worry about Nascar becoming a caricature of itself as that happened ages ago. The chase, bogus cautions, wave arounds, giving laps back gratis etc may have been palatable for many but in reality destroyed the notion that Nascar was a sport.

I can understand that current fans may not like things like timed races, caution clocks, heat races and whatever other gimmicks Nascar decides to employ but those things are only an extension of where it has been headed.
 
cheesepuffs said:
You need to realize that hate is not the opposite of love. If Brad says something that sets a lot of fans off, well then guess what, that means that those fans still care either way. It ignites passion and debate and drama. That's good for the sport and a sign of good health.

The day that Brad says something controversial and nobody bats an eye is when we know we have a problem on our hands because that would mean that nobody cares anymore, which is the true opposite of love. Zero passion at all. But drivers pissing people off sometimes is a good thing and keeps our pulses going.
Click to expand...

This is truly a brilliant post--and I mean that. You have just extinguished the overused "hater" terminology with your operational definition. I mean seriously man....many have been searching for a way to explain this, and you just did. In the context of Kyle Damn Busch driving the TRD powered Toyota Camry....this would mean that nasty comments are part of the product he projects. You cannot have Kyle without the nastiness and those who support him. This is the package. Drivers nobody talks about are the hated. Tremendous post!
 
They were headed to Canada until they were able to buy up the rights and left just running a truck race.
Trump will renegotiate NAFTA and in the process we will get a cup race. :sarcasm:
 
Revman said:
What is so stupid to me is those who are proponents for change and improving the racing. If you were able to improve the racing (which I do not agree is broken), would you need format changes? Seems to me that NASCAR et al. is about ready to reach for change as a means of compensating for what some consider to be a poor racing product. This is what road course racing is....a format where the aero issues are not relevant. The format makes the show--not the racing.
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What Nascar is doing is like a guy who grabs a couple of magazines and heads to the shi++ter for a session. Thirty minutes later you hear the sound of aerosol spray going off and he thinks that the pine scent will cover up his stench but in reality it smells like he ****t a Christmas Tree raised at the wastewater treatment plant.
 
I'd ideally like to see a schedule of nothing but short tracks and road courses from around the world. The cookie cutters and restrictor plate tracks are horrible and not good indicators of skill.

Run the road courses at Daytona, Vegas, and Charlotte. The only tracks I'd keep with current configuration are Bristol (make it the way it was before it was repaved), Martinsville, Indy, and Darlington, Sonoma, and Watkins Glen.

Build a track in the Meadowlands and hold it on 4th of July weekend with fireworks on the Hudson after the race.

Hold races in Mexico, Canada, Brazil, Turkey, Japan, South Korea, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Shanghai, India, the UK, Paris, Germany, Italy, Monaco, Singapore, Russia, Spain and Malaysia.

Make each race an annual event that the world's wealthy must attend and the rest of the world must watch.

Ditch the Chase. Ditch the charter system. Fastest 43 race. Points for laps led, wins, and finishing position. Guy with most points at end of year is the champion.

Cut the races length by a third and have side-by-side for every race like in IndyCar.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
IDK why emotion and drivers behaving badly is important for some people as I don't watch watch hockey or football to see athletes fight, argue and and act likes horsesasses. I watch those sports to enjoy the game and see players make plays and the coaches call a good game.
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And I don't know how people can not want that drama. As far as "watching the players make plays" on the track, they don't really have to for the first 480 miles of a race. Up to that point it's just staying up on adjustments to go along with track temp and conditions. There's just not a whole lot of play making even happening. That's why I think it should change to heat races for a lot of events.

But anyway if there's no play making AND there's no personal dramas and rivalries, then literally what are we watching? The answer is nothing. And that's why most people have stop bothering to watch altogether.
 
Revman said:
This is truly a brilliant post--and I mean that. You have just extinguished the overused "hater" terminology with your operational definition. I mean seriously man....many have been searching for a way to explain this, and you just did. In the context of Kyle Damn Busch driving the TRD powered Toyota Camry....this would mean that nasty comments are part of the product he projects. You cannot have Kyle without the nastiness and those who support him. This is the package. Drivers nobody talks about are the hated. Tremendous post!
Click to expand...

I like sports where people can speak well of the stars like Sidney Crosby, Connor McDavid and Auston Matthews and none of them have to behave like jerks in order to get attention. You go out and do your job well and let that do the talking instead of having to be potty mouthed divas getting pissed off because another driver made contact and you didn't like it, Waaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!
 
Team Penske said:
They were headed to Canada until they were able to buy up the rights and left just running a truck race.
Trump will renegotiate NAFTA and in the process we will get a cup race. :sarcasm:
Click to expand...

We need the little guy from Shawinigan back with his red book as I think a cup race was promised.
 
cheesepuffs said:
And I don't know how people can not want that drama. As far as "watching the players make plays" on the track, they don't really have to for the first 480 miles of a race. Up to that point it's just staying up on adjustments to go along with track temp and conditions. There's just not a whole lot of play making even happening. That's why I think it should change to heat races for a lot of events.

But anyway if there's no play making AND there's no personal dramas and rivalries, then literally what are we watching? The answer is nothing. And that's why most people have stop bothering to watch altogether.
Click to expand...

I have mentioned this before but way back when Nascar races had built in drama as you could have a car that was dominating that all of a sudden succumbed to an overheating and/or engine expiration problem. When was the last time you ever saw a car that didn't have damage spewing steam and water? I am not suggesting that flaws should be built into cars so some magically blow up but when that sort of thing was a fact of life you never knew what would happen. These days a car will occasionally lose an engine but it is not a regular occurrence so when a guy sets sail in clean air the only thing that normally stops him is an often time bogus yellow.

If ill tempered drivers and drama has to be manipulated in order for Nascar to remain viable then I don't have a problem with it because you always want to give the people what they want. None of the gimmicks and machinations to date have done anything to stem the exodus of fans from Nascar but maybe this next group will help move the needle. One thing to bear in mind is that regardless of the initiatives brought forth Nascar is the king of unintended consequences so there could be a lot of comedy mixed in with the drama.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I like sports where people can speak well of the stars like Sidney Crosby, Connor McDavid and Auston Matthews and none of them have to behave like jerks in order to get attention. You go out and do your job well and let that do the talking instead of having to be potty mouthed divas getting pissed off because another driver made contact and you didn't like it, Waaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!
Click to expand...

OK well that would be our Jimmie Johnson, and nobody likes him either.

Nobody likes the heroes and nobody likes the villians. Nobody likes most of the tracks and nobody likes how the cars look. Nobody likes the points structure or the championship format. Nobody likes people in the TV booth or the channels the races are broadcast on. The new title sponsor wants to place good looking women at the track and we whine about that too.

NASCAR honestly has the ****tiest fans of any sport in existence. Collectively they are never happy and no matter what NASCAR does they will only complain. The expectations of a NASCAR fan are a moving target placed behind a brick wall.
 
cheesepuffs said:
OK well that would be our Jimmie Johnson, and nobody likes him either.

Nobody likes the heroes and nobody likes the villians. Nobody likes most of the tracks and nobody likes how the cars look. Nobody likes the points structure or the championship format. Nobody likes people in the TV booth or the channels the races are broadcast on. The new title sponsor wants to place good looking women at the track and we whine about that too.

NASCAR honestly has the ****tiest fans of any sport in existence. Collectively they are never happy and no matter what NASCAR does they will only complain. The expectations of a NASCAR fan are a moving target placed behind a brick wall.
Click to expand...
It's not the fans, it's the product.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
cheesepuffs said:
OK well that would be our Jimmie Johnson, and nobody likes him either.

Nobody likes the heroes and nobody likes the villians. Nobody likes most of the tracks and nobody likes how the cars look. Nobody likes the points structure or the championship format. Nobody likes people in the TV booth or the channels the races are broadcast on. The new title sponsor wants to place good looking women at the track and we whine about that too.

NASCAR honestly has the ****tiest fans of any sport in existence. Collectively they are never happy and no matter what NASCAR does they will only complain. The expectations of a NASCAR fan are a moving target placed behind a brick wall.
Click to expand...
Post of the week at my house.
 
cheesepuffs said:
OK well that would be our Jimmie Johnson, and nobody likes him either.

Nobody likes the heroes and nobody likes the villians. Nobody likes most of the tracks and nobody likes how the cars look. Nobody likes the points structure or the championship format. Nobody likes people in the TV booth or the channels the races are broadcast on. The new title sponsor wants to place good looking women at the track and we whine about that too.

NASCAR honestly has the ****tiest fans of any sport in existence. Collectively they are never happy and no matter what NASCAR does they will only complain. The expectations of a NASCAR fan are a moving target placed behind a brick wall.
Click to expand...



Is it time for Daytona yet ?
 
aunty dive said:
Post of the week at my house.
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NASCAR fans: "The product sucks!"

*Discussion about potential sweeping changes*

NASCAR fans: "ARE YOU KIDDING ME DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING THOSE IDEAS ARE STOOOPID JUST MAKE THE CARS STOCK AGAIN"

...

NASCAR fans: "Seven time champion Jimmie Johnson is just so borrrrring I just can't stand him he wins too much and has no personality".

*Kyle Busch expresses himself*

NASCAR fans: "TELL THAT WHINY BITCH TO STFU HE CROSSED THE LINE AGAIN NASCAR SHOULD PARK HIS ASS FOR POOR SPORTSMANSHIP AND HAVING TOO HOT OF A WIFE ARE YOU LISTENING M&Ms?!?"
 
cheesepuffs said:
NASCAR honestly has the ****tiest fans of any sport in existence. Collectively they are never happy and no matter what NASCAR does they will only complain. The expectations of a NASCAR fan are a moving target placed behind a brick wall.
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Your point about hate not being the opposite of love is very perceptive. Indifference is. I don't really buy this refrain about how remaining NASCAR fans are so bad and impossible to please. Similar to your point, it mistakes having passionate opinions, good and bad, as the problem. The fact that fans are divided on what they like and don't like is not the issue. The real problem is that about half the former audience stopped watching. The opposite of being an engaged viewer that NASCAR needs is not being critical, it's not caring at all.

I am much more likely to agree that NASCAR has the sh!tt!est leadership of any major sport in existence. There's a reason for that, it's not just random that Brian France happens to be a complete buffoon and disgrace. He wouldn't have reached that position anywhere else. They are the most insular and closed off, and the least accountable. Still running a multi-billion dollar sport with a family business mindset.

I'm always much more likely to place blame at the top of the food chain unless actual evidence indicates otherwise. They have given rise to these constant debates about format changes with their own indecisiveness and kneejerk radical changes. If other sports kept fundamentally changing their procedure for determining a champion, fans would be throwing out their own theories for how it should be done.

I do agree with you that NASCAR drivers are way too reined in and scrubbed of their natural personalities. I hope that can change. If some people love to hate outspoken drivers, that's good.
 
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cheesepuffs said:
OK well that would be our Jimmie Johnson, and nobody likes him either.

Nobody likes the heroes and nobody likes the villians. Nobody likes most of the tracks and nobody likes how the cars look. Nobody likes the points structure or the championship format. Nobody likes people in the TV booth or the channels the races are broadcast on. The new title sponsor wants to place good looking women at the track and we whine about that too.

NASCAR honestly has the ****tiest fans of any sport in existence. Collectively they are never happy and no matter what NASCAR does they will only complain. The expectations of a NASCAR fan are a moving target placed behind a brick wall.
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Drop mike. Done.....and as such, the bull**** we see here should be taken with a grain of salt. You. Nailed. It.
 
gnomesayin said:
Your point about hate not being the opposite of love is very perceptive. Indifference is. I don't really buy this refrain about how remaining NASCAR fans are so bad and impossible to please. Similar to your point, it mistakes having passionate opinions, good and bad, as the problem. The fact that fans are divided on what they like and don't like is not the issue. The real problem is that about half the former audience stopped watching. The opposite of being an engaged viewer that NASCAR needs is not being critical, it's not caring at all.

I am much more likely to agree that NASCAR has the sh!tt!est leadership of any major sport in existence. There's a reason for that, it's not just random that Brian France happens to be a complete buffoon and disgrace. He wouldn't have reached that position anywhere else. They are the most insular and closed off, and the least accountable. Still running a multi-billion dollar sport with a family business mindset.

I'm always much more likely to place blame at the top of the food chain unless actual evidence indicates otherwise. They have given rise to these constant debates about format changes with their own indecisiveness and kneejerk radical changes. If other sports kept fundamentally changing their procedure for determining a champion, fans would be throwing out their own theories for how it should be done.

I do agree with you that NASCAR drivers are way too reined in and scrubbed of their natural personalities. I hope that can change. If some people love to hate outspoken drivers, that's good.
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Honestly, I have been asking myself why the hell I even bother with this forum.....and then you and @cheesepuffs submit two of the best posts I have seen since I joined. Excellent.
 
cheesepuffs said:
OK well that would be our Jimmie Johnson, and nobody likes him either.

Nobody likes the heroes and nobody likes the villians. Nobody likes most of the tracks and nobody likes how the cars look. Nobody likes the points structure or the championship format. Nobody likes people in the TV booth or the channels the races are broadcast on. The new title sponsor wants to place good looking women at the track and we whine about that too.

NASCAR honestly has the ****tiest fans of any sport in existence. Collectively they are never happy and no matter what NASCAR does they will only complain. The expectations of a NASCAR fan are a moving target placed behind a brick wall.
Click to expand...

I will leave it to you and others to dissect the quality of Nascar fans as that is not important to me. What is important for Nascar is that they revive their moribund series and if that means have nekked wimmin parachuting in at the halftime intermission then so be it.
 
aunty dive said:
Sam Bass.
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If you want to set your house on fire, as long as no one is in it, I'll let you do it even after advising you against it.

Kyle won that trophy and it seems like he wanted to be a rebel and act "rock n' roll" so he trashed it. I may not agree (I don't) but it's his to trash.

Dare I say this sport needs more guys (and gals) like Kyle Busch.
 
With the hyperbole, chastisement, angst and drama of this thread it is more entertaining than a lot of the races. Who'd a thunk it!
 
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