Jeff Gordon's amazing "Top 5" finishing record

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DelsFan

Guest
Preface: be a hater if you choose, I'm not really a Jeff Gordon fan. But, shouldn't an honest fan respect Gordon's accomplishments regardless? Not that he didn't start off in pretty good equipment or anything, but still...


I was astounded to see the graphic FOX put up during the Daytona 500 race:
Jeff Gordon has finished in the Top 5 in 320 of the 761 races he's started. Surely that was a mistake - who could possibly have a 42% Top 5 finishing rate over his entire career???

I guess maybe Gordon should be a close (tie) for third on my all-time greatest driver list. (Not a huge Jimmie fan, nor was I a big Dale Sr. fan, but they top my list. Different topic though.)

Is FOX's assertion correct? (Hint: yes, it is.)

Can you think of any other drivers that might have even come close to this accomplishment?
 
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Most folks dont realize those guys had like 60 races to help stretch their top 5s.

Gordon did it with 30 to 36 races. Naturally, takes longer to pile those up that way.
 
C_Numb said:
David Pearson … 301 Top 5's in 574 races …


David Pearson
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Get That 88 Up There !! said:
Richard Petty, 555 top 5's in 1,184 races, 48 %
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The modern era started in 1972 because before that they raced under different sets of rules at different tracks and raced as many as 4 times a week. The top drivers were scattered all over the place racing at different tracks during a single week. That's why the records are split at 1972. Before and after 1972? Apples and oranges.
 
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"greatest ever" threads are great to debate. This is what racing is. The meeting of the old guard and the new. I just hope my driver can make an impact
 
Johali said:
The modern era started in 1972 because before that they raced under different sets of rules at different tracks and raced as many as 4 times a week. The top drivers were scattered all over the place racing at different tracks during a single week. That's why the records are split at 1972. Before and after 1972? Apples and oranges.
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I didn't realize there was a caveat to the OP's post asking if there were any drivers who were close to this accomplishment … I knew Dale Sr. was right there with Gordon but Pearson was the first name that popped into my head as a guy probably over 50% … I'd like to hear the OP's opinion as it is his thread …
 
The modern era is always cited when talking about Nascar records on all of the races and racing show's that I've watched. DW cited it when he called Jeff Gordon the GOAT last Sunday. That dividing line makes a big difference in the records.
 
Pearson apparently was the man. In a different era.
Jeff and Jimmie Johnson have really done something spectacular against stiff competition.

Tony and Kyle were surprises to me - apparently mighty Kyle has been doing a little something to back up his talk! Other than Jeff and Jimmy, Tony and Kyle seem to have separated themselves from... everyone else.

And Dale Sr. wasn't chopped liver, but we already knew that.


Top Five - jpeg.jpg



Sorry, couldn't figure out how to convert an Excel spreadsheet to something that would upload - without just taking a photo with my camera-phone...
 
C_Numb said:
I didn't realize there was a caveat to the OP's post asking if there were any drivers who were close to this accomplishment … I knew Dale Sr. was right there with Gordon but Pearson was the first name that popped into my head as a guy probably over 50% … I'd like to hear the OP's opinion as it is his thread …
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This started out as me just being curious after reading the graphic during the 500. As you can see, I've kind of separated the drivers into three groups. Rightly or wrongly, it seemed logical to add a semi-modern group whose careers started in the seventies rather than the fifties.
 
Reck said:
Most folks dont realize those guys had like 60 races to help stretch their top 5s.

Gordon did it with 30 to 36 races. Naturally, takes longer to pile those up that way.
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Richard Petty 1185 starts in 35 years = 33.86 average starts per season.

Jeff Gordon 1993 through 2014 or 22 seasons 760 starts or 34.54 avg starts per season

omitted 1992 and 2015 . Jeff as of now has one start in each of those years.
 
Johali said:
The modern era started in 1972 because before that they raced under different sets of rules at different tracks and raced as many as 4 times a week. The top drivers were scattered all over the place racing at different tracks during a single week. That's why the records are split at 1972. Before and after 1972? Apples and oranges.
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I agree it is impossible to make a straight up comparison. Great accomplishments by Jeff and a few others imo.
 
Reck said:
Most folks dont realize those guys had like 60 races to help stretch their top 5s.

Gordon did it with 30 to 36 races. Naturally, takes longer to pile those up that way.
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The stat is based on career total races run, so does it make any difference that they ran more races in a season back in the pre-modern era?
 
mreed said:
The stat is based on career total races run, so does it make any difference that they ran more races in a season back in the pre-modern era?
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Johali said:
The modern era started in 1972 because before that they raced under different sets of rules at different tracks and raced as many as 4 times a week. The top drivers were scattered all over the place racing at different tracks during a single week. That's why the records are split at 1972. Before and after 1972? Apples and oranges.
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The Alabama gang could be at one track and Petty at another on the same night and so on. At a lot of the races they just raced against the locals. And like I said there were different track rules, not one set of rules fit all like today. It was a different era with different rules. That's part of why the statisticians separate the two era's at 1972. Most record books have them separated also.
 
mreed said:
The stat is based on career total races run, so does it make any difference that they ran more races in a season back in the pre-modern era?
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More starts=more oportunities to rack up wins, top 5s etc..

I dont see what's so hard to get.

For instance, in a particular year Petty ran 61 of 62 races, he had 37 top 5s.

In comparison, Gordon only had half of that to make up for top 5s.

Let's face it, its not realistic to get 36 top 5s out of 36 races.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
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Lol but even those numbers are incapable of fully representing matters.

As noted by Johali. http://racing-forums.com/members/johali.6082/
they ran many shorter races prior to the close of 1971, and that season alone had over 50 cup events (called GN at the time). Two of them at Greenville Pickens and they were only 200 lappers. I loved those races. I live close enough to hear the engines at the track from my house. I attended them and wish it could happen again. But those races probably started 30 cars at the most. I hate to admit it but the size of the event in todays terms would be more closely paired to a GN east race.

The 1971 events had greater talent than the current GN East, with Petty, Isaac, The Allison brothers. Plus CCs like Hyde and Inman, but they also was a bigger gap between the best and worst equipped teams. Some were fortunate just to be able to make the haul.

They ran a race in at Texas that year 1971 near Houston, Meyers speedway. It was basically a mid week stop from the west coast, after the Riverside race. Probably drew less than 20 cars. A finish with no major calamities was almost a guaranteed top 5.

Petty and Bobby Allison are heros and I would argue their greatness against one. But you can make the numbers support at least half a dozen drivers as the GOAT, including Jeff Gordon.

Even how to measure a great one with a universal application across the generations is a slippery slope. Drivers in the previous era by default had to be good with the wrenches and work with cruder elements.
They probably could talk about the extra ply sidewalls on their open trailer tires, they might have even taken part in the building the rig.

And Gordon by default or no choice of his own has exsisted in an era were corporate polish means more. But he also without question had to compete against stronger competition too, it almost impossible to acess both eras and make accurate acessments for who is the GOAT.

End of the day if you believe a
any one of them is the GOAT, enjoy it and be happy for the history you have seen, and even your passion. It is a great thing.

Just dont kid yourself into thinking you can prove it to anyone else.
 
Greg said:
Lol but even those numbers are incapable of fully representing matters.

As noted by Johali. http://racing-forums.com/members/johali.6082/
they ran many shorter races prior to the close of 1971, and that season alone had over 50 cup events (called GN at the time). Two of them at Greenville Pickens and they were only 200 lappers. I loved those races. I live close enough to hear the engines at the track from my house. I attended them and wish it could happen again. But those races probably started 30 cars at the most. I hate to admit it but the size of the event in todays terms would be more closely paired to a GN east race.

The 1971 events had greater talent than the current GN East, with Petty, Isaac, The Allison brothers. Plus CCs like Hyde and Inman, but they also was a bigger gap between the best and worst equipped teams. Some were fortunate just to be able to make the haul.

They ran a race in at Texas that year 1971 near Houston, Meyers speedway. It was basically a mid week stop from the west coast, after the Riverside race. Probably drew less than 20 cars. A finish with no major calamities was almost a guaranteed top 5.

Petty and Bobby Allison are heros and I would argue their greatness against one. But you can make the numbers support at least half a dozen drivers as the GOAT, including Jeff Gordon.

Even how to measure a great one with a universal application across the generations is a slippery slope. Drivers in the previous era by default had to be good with the wrenches and work with cruder elements.
They probably could talk about the extra ply sidewalls on their open trailer tires, they might have even taken part in the building the rig.

And Gordon by default or no choice of his own has exsisted in an era were corporate polish means more. But he also without question had to compete against stronger competition too, it almost impossible to acess both eras and make accurate acessments for who is the GOAT.

End of the day if you believe a
any one of them is the GOAT, enjoy it and be happy for the history you have seen, and even your passion. It is a great thing.

Just dont kid yourself into thinking you can prove it to anyone else.
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Sage type post by our own Gregsky.
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Greg said:
Lol but even those numbers are incapable of fully representing matters.

As noted by Johali. http://racing-forums.com/members/johali.6082/
they ran many shorter races prior to the close of 1971, and that season alone had over 50 cup events (called GN at the time). Two of them at Greenville Pickens and they were only 200 lappers. I loved those races. I live close enough to hear the engines at the track from my house. I attended them and wish it could happen again. But those races probably started 30 cars at the most. I hate to admit it but the size of the event in todays terms would be more closely paired to a GN east race.

The 1971 events had greater talent than the current GN East, with Petty, Isaac, The Allison brothers. Plus CCs like Hyde and Inman, but they also was a bigger gap between the best and worst equipped teams. Some were fortunate just to be able to make the haul.

They ran a race in at Texas that year 1971 near Houston, Meyers speedway. It was basically a mid week stop from the west coast, after the Riverside race. Probably drew less than 20 cars. A finish with no major calamities was almost a guaranteed top 5.

Petty and Bobby Allison are heros and I would argue their greatness against one. But you can make the numbers support at least half a dozen drivers as the GOAT, including Jeff Gordon.

Even how to measure a great one with a universal application across the generations is a slippery slope. Drivers in the previous era by default had to be good with the wrenches and work with cruder elements.
They probably could talk about the extra ply sidewalls on their open trailer tires, they might have even taken part in the building the rig.

And Gordon by default or no choice of his own has exsisted in an era were corporate polish means more. But he also without question had to compete against stronger competition too, it almost impossible to acess both eras and make accurate acessments for who is the GOAT.

End of the day if you believe a
any one of them is the GOAT, enjoy it and be happy for the history you have seen, and even your passion. It is a great thing.

Just dont kid yourself into thinking you can prove it to anyone else.
Click to expand...
Maybe we should focus on who is the GOCT (greatest of certain times) lol
 
Reck said:
More starts=more opportunities to rack up wins, top 5s etc..

I dont see what's so hard to get.

For instance, in a particular year Petty ran 61 of 62 races, he had 37 top 5s.

In comparison, Gordon only had half of that to make up for top 5s.

Let's face it, its not realistic to get 36 top 5s out of 36 races.
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I guess I should have specified, I wasn't talking about total number of Top 5 finishes but % of the time a driver finished in the Top 5. So running more races wouldn't pad that statistic; to have a 40% Top 5 finishing rate a driver would have to still finish in the Top 5 in 2 of every 5 races started no matter if he started 300 races or 1000 races.



Maybe we should focus on who is the GOCT (greatest of certain times) lol
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Actually I see quite a bit of wisdom in that; I think it would not be that difficult to get at least a few people to agree that Dale Sr. was the greatest of a certain time!

Also Cale Yarborough was pretty good for a stretch.
From 1957 to 1972, in each season he ran well less than half the races, except for one (nearly) full season (1965).
At the end of his career, from '81 to '88, he ran a half schedule (I don't remember why).
But for the eight years in between, when he ran a full schedule (1973-1980), his record was pretty remarkable:
he started every race (237), won 55 times (23.3% of the time), and had 158 Top 5 finishes (for a whopping 66.7% success rate).
Anyone who remembers watching Cale during this time will find this amusing, but not surprising - talk about win or nothing! During that same time period (of running full seasons) he finished in the Top 10 172 times; so, while he finished in the top five 158 times he finished only 14 times in positions 6-10! That's the Cale I remember!
 
DelsFan said:
I guess I should have specified, I wasn't talking about total number of Top 5 finishes but % of the time a driver finished in the Top 5. So running more races wouldn't pad that statistic; to have a 40% Top 5 finishing rate a driver would have to still finish in the Top 5 in 2 of every 5 races started no matter if he started 300 races or 1000 races.


Actually I see quite a bit of wisdom in that; I think it would not be that difficult to get at least a few people to agree that Dale Sr. was the greatest of a certain time!

Also Cale Yarborough was pretty good for a stretch.
From 1957 to 1972, in each season he ran well less than half the races, except for one (nearly) full season (1965).
At the end of his career, from '81 to '88, he ran a half schedule (I don't remember why).
But for the eight years in between, when he ran a full schedule (1973-1980), his record was pretty remarkable:
he started every race (237), won 55 times (23.3% of the time), and had 158 Top 5 finishes (for a whopping 66.7% success rate).
Anyone who remembers watching Cale during this time will find this amusing, but not surprising - talk about win or nothing! During that same time period (of running full seasons) he finished in the Top 10 172 times; so, while he finished in the top five 158 times he finished only 14 times in positions 6-10! That's the Cale I remember!
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But running with lesser talented drivers several times a week would. That is the statisticians point. Before 1972 the top drivers were seldom in the same race. The top drivers were racing at tracks scattered all over in the same week. Of course their percentages are going to be better. From 1972 on, the top drivers that wanted to race were at the same track. It's the same as if you added all of kybu's statistics together in Cup, X and trucks. It would blow everybody else's cup percentage stat's out of the water. That's the point. Who they were racing against skew's the percentages. I've explained it the best that I can several times now. @Greg had some of the same points, see post 21. If some still have a different opinion then oh well. See ya'll.
 
I would argue the opposite, Petty ran over 1,100 races, just because he wasn't racing with the "right" crowd all the time doesn't mean he was racing against lesser competition, no way of proving that claim...it's bogus. All the drivers back then were racing many drivers who were local talent and they not only had good cars but knew what setup it took to win on their home track.
 
Johali said:
But running with lesser talented drivers several times a week would. That is the statisticians point. Before 1972 the top drivers were seldom in the same race. The top drivers were racing at tracks scattered all over in the same week. Of course their percentages are going to be better. From 1972 on, the top drivers that wanted to race were at the same track. It's the same as if you added all of kybu's statistics together in Cup, X and trucks. It would blow everybody else's cup percentage stat's out of the water. That's the point. Who they were racing against skew's the percentages. I've explained it the best that I can several times now. @Greg had some of the same points, see post 21. If some still have a different opinion then oh well. See ya'll.
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I'm not arguing with you, I agree that David Pearson's and Richard Petty's records (and I was a big Richard Petty fan when he was racing) have no similarity to Jeff Gordon's and Jimmie Johnson's. (And Smoke's and KyBu's for that matter.)
Edit: Although StandOnIt's post makes good sense too.

I agree the quality of the field any driver was racing against is the crux of the matter. But running more races (in general) doesn't give a driver a better chance to compile a greater Top 5 percentage. Maybe Reck wasn't saying that, or didn't mean that if what he wrote seemed to indicate it.

Getting slightly back on topic:
Based on their performances, I'd conclude that Pearson and Petty were pretty good during their time, that Dale Sr. was perhaps the best of the early modern era, and of course Jeff and Jimmy the best of the active drivers. I'd go so far as to say being the GOAT is Jimmie's to win or lose. If he can win just one more championship in the five or ten years one could presume he would still race, it would be hard to argue with five straight championships, seven total, in a time when the competition was pretty brutal.

And to the original point of my post:
We all knew Jimmie and Jeff were pretty decent drivers; what I didn't know is that Tony and Kyle have pretty well separated themselves from all other active racers, save for two.
 
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DelsFan said:
I'm not arguing with you, I agree that David Pearson's and Richard Petty's records (and I was a big Richard Petty fan when he was racing) have no similarity to Jeff Gordon's and Jimmie Johnson's. (And Smoke's and KyBu's for that matter.)
Edit: Although StandOnIt's post makes good sense too.

I agree the quality of the field any driver was racing against is the crux of the matter. But running more races (in general) doesn't give a driver a better chance to compile a greater Top 5 percentage. Maybe you weren't saying that, or didn't mean that if what you wrote seemed to indicate it.

We all knew Jimmie and Jeff were pretty decent drivers; what I didn't know is that Tony and Kyle have pretty well separated themselves from everyone else racing today, save for two.
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I watched it first hand happen on the track I went to, the world of outlaws was pretty new, but they would show up once a year to run on our track. Our local drivers would do pretty well against them.
 
StandOnIt said:
I watched it first hand happen on the track I went to, the world of outlaws was pretty new, but they would show up once a year to run on our track. Our local drivers would do pretty well against them.
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Speaking of which, when I lived in Indiana I ran into a guy who was in the same business as I but also drove (I think for an owner, not his car) a Sprint car locally: "The same horsepower as a Cup car with 1/3 of the weight - you've never seen anything like it!"

I've been to many NASCAR races, maybe less than a dozen NHRA National Events, and six or eight F1 races - but I moved from Indiana before I could go out and watch my "acquaintance" race in the World of Outlaws series. I'm pretty sure a needed addition to my bucket list...
 
StandOnIt said:
I would argue the opposite, Petty ran over 1,100 races, just because he wasn't racing with the "right" crowd all the time doesn't mean he was racing against lesser competition, no way of proving that claim...it's bogus. All the drivers back then were racing many drivers who were local talent and they not only had good cars but knew what setup it took to win on their home track.
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It's not "Bogus". I was at many of those races all through the southeast from around 1950 through 1971. The tracks would pay one or two stars to be at a track at a time to draw in the crowd because that was all they could afford. Plus they won the purse most of the time. I don't know how things worked in the middle of the prairie but that's how it worked in the southeast. Almost every track was sanctioned by Nascar even Five Flags and Mobile Al. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean that my opinions are "Bogus".
 
Pearson apparently was the man. In a different era.
Jeff and Jimmie Johnson have really done something spectacular against stiff competition.

Tony and Kyle were surprises to me - apparently mighty Kyle has been doing a little something to back up his talk! Other than Jeff and Jimmy, Tony and Kyle seem to have separated themselves from... everyone else.

And Dale Sr. wasn't chopped liver, but we already knew that.
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Breaking them up by era is more meaningful to me.
 
StandOnIt said:
The record says different. Look at Petty stats in the 50's 60's, or the 70's, hall of famers in almost every race, and other names that were big in Nascar. and BTW there were many years Petty didn't come close to racing 30 or 40 races in a year.

http://www.racing-reference.info/driver/pettyri01
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No. Only 1 to 5 top drivers in a race = a lotta top 5 finishes. Look up the statisticians and their record keeping and tell them that they're bogus and don't have a clue because you know better and see how far you get. This is a waste of time so I'm outta here.
 
Johali said:
No. Only 1 to 5 top drivers in a race = a lotta top 5 finishes. Look up the statisticians and their record keeping and tell them that they're bogus and don't have a clue because you know better and see how far you get. This is a waste of time so I'm outta here.
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:XXROFL::XXROFL::XXROFL:
 
StandOnIt said:
I would argue the opposite, Petty ran over 1,100 races, just because he wasn't racing with the "right" crowd all the time doesn't mean he was racing against lesser competition, no way of proving that claim...it's bogus. All the drivers back then were racing many drivers who were local talent and they not only had good cars but knew what setup it took to win on their home track.
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I think there is something to be said for the grind. Those years running 50 races had to be gruesome.

The scheduled number of events was reduced in 1972. And Pearsons percentages were better, but that may have been aided by the Wood Brothers running about 2/3rds of the events even after the schedule was reduced They simply had more prep time.

That is what makes measuring who was the best of the era so difficult. Pearson could have easily handled a 30 race schedule, but could the Wood Brothers have maintained the equipment as well with the extra work load.
Did Petty Enterprises have to make some compromises with the extra work or grind?.

Just to many variables to sort out with certainty imo.

Pettys stats are also skewed by running about 5 years past when he should have retired.
Probably very few top fives after 1986.
Waltrip stats are damaged by racing way past quitting time as well.

I think Gordon fans should be happy that he is wise enough to leave with his dignity, while he is still strong and fast.
I am so happy that he will not repeat the Waltrip/Petty mistake. It is a sad thing watching them degenerate, and their legacy deserved better imo.
 
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Waltrip made a bad business decision and started his own team and it almost broke him, not to mention hurt his record in this dog and pony show. Lorenzen was like a hit man, ran mostly money races, so using the bogus competition angle you could say he was the greatest. But I go with the King Petty, did more for the sport than any of them IMO, and with a little fiddling with his record discounting his golden years he by far beats everybody in that regard. Before air conditioning, safety, power steering, decent tires, and speeds that haven't been matched today. Gordon came along after all the heavy work was done and lapped up the cream. Sure he will go down as a great driver and a hall of famer. But Johnson in the modern era is smoking him.
 
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