JGR and the 100% rule

Zerkfitting said:
Cars riding in the back has been going on before the chase. And I don't know how they can enforce a 100% rule as long as they meet the minimum speed requirement. I agree with Junior that running up front is the best strategy. But each track has several race strategies and teams do what they choose.
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It would generally be hard to enforce, but Kyle pretty much said it on the radio. Someone can probably find the audio, but I think it was something to the effect of "we'll stay back here in case they wreck and maybe pick up 20 spots," with like 30 laps left. It was clear they weren't going for the win, but hoping for a top 20. That doesn't seem like 100% to me.
 
It was a 100% strategy to make the next round.
Nascar's fault for not looking far enough ahead when making the schedule.
Do you think they would have done this if Dega was the first of 3 races?
 
Team Penske said:
It was a 100% strategy to make the next round.
Nascar's fault for not looking far enough ahead when making the schedule.
Do you think they would have done this if Dega was the first of 3 races?
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I agree that it is NASCAR's fault, as the playoff format is ridiculous. But they can dissuade teams from doing this by coming down hard on a strategy like this, and there is a rule already in place to do so.
 
29-4 said:
I agree that it is NASCAR's fault, as the playoff format is ridiculous. But they can dissuade teams from doing this by coming down hard on a strategy like this, and there is a rule already in place to do so.
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Nope, the rule allows for what they did. I posted a link earlier today about it. I'm too lazy to go back and look but the timeline is somewhere between 4:00-6:00 this morning.

What they did was well within the 100% rule.
 
Your right it allows for strategy so they can make a run at the end. The cars today won't allow that so the the only way to rectify it is remove Dega from the chase or make it the first of 3 races.
 
I don't like what they did but it was a part of a strategy to advance. Also in the process it helped Hamlin in that they wouldn't be finishing ahead of him. It sucks but it was effective.
 
The more I think about it riding around in the back doesn't bother me at all especially when Nascar throws cautions for no reason yet lets a car drag a jack around at 180 mph. In the past in 500 miles races it was not uncommon for drivers to say they were just riding until it got closer to the end so they certainly were not going all out.

When I first started watching Nascar the announcers would talk about certain drivers taking care of their car in the initial stages of a race because back then you really didn't know when an engine was going to expire or the dreaded overheating issue would ruin your day. There was always the tension when watching a race in thinking is my guy's car going to hold up and make it to the end where these days it isn't much of an issue. In fact you are more likely to have an ECM problem than an overheating problem.

My point is that all through history it hasn't been uncommon for most drivers not to push the envelope in several laps of most races and while it is not as noticeable as cars riding at the back it still wasn't 100% effort.
 
Again, I think the difference is that they weren't saving it for the end of the race. That is something we have seen at the plate races for years. They continued to sandbag all the way to the checkered flag. The "different strategies" quoted by @dpkimmel2001, I think, are designed to account for drivers using this strategy early (or at least, not at the end) of the race. Now, it I'll concede it might be unfair to penalize JGR given the ambiguity in the rule. But NASCAR ought to clarify things so that such obvious sandbagging all the way to the checkered flag won't be allowed in the future. Obviously, plates aren't going away & neither is 'Dega, so NASCAR should try their best to ensure a good show for the fans.
 
29-4 said:
Again, I think the difference is that they weren't saving it for the end of the race. That is something we have seen at the plate races for years. They continued to sandbag all the way to the checkered flag. The "different strategies" quoted by @dpkimmel2001, I think, are designed to account for drivers using this strategy early (or at least, not at the end) of the race. Now, it I'll concede it might be unfair to penalize JGR given the ambiguity in the rule. But NASCAR ought to clarify things so that such obvious sandbagging all the way to the checkered flag won't be allowed in the future. Obviously, plates aren't going away & neither is 'Dega, so NASCAR should try their best to ensure a good show for the fans.
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Policing intent is kinda like knowing porn when you see it. What about maybe the not so obvious team or teams that may be experiencing issues of some sort that causes them to drop back outta the pack? That rule could get very subjective. Subjective rules lead to more tin hats. Maybe their fans just need to voice their opinions just like when Dale Earnhardt Jr tried the same strategy. That helped.
 
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Putting Talladega into the playoffs encouraged a preservation strategy. I can't blame JGR for trying to avoid loosing the points lead their teams worked to get. I'm not a fan of running in the back at plate races but I understand why they do it and sometimes it might just a cost saving strategy.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Policing intent is kinda like knowing porn when you see it. What about maybe the not so obvious team or teams that may be experiencing issues of some sort that causes them to drop back outta the pack? That rule could get very subjective. Subjective rules lead to more tin hats. Maybe their fans just need to voice their opinions just like when Dale Earnhardt Jr tried the same strategy. That helped.
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I would say Kyle Busch made it pretty explicit on the radio. Sure, it would be tough sometimes but times like yesterday were quite obvious.
 
29-4 said:
I would say Kyle Busch made it pretty explicit on the radio. Sure, it would be tough sometimes but times like yesterday were quite obvious.
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If Nascar is going to hand down sanctions for Talladega tactics, they should start by banning Kevin Harvick from the sport for intentionally wrecking the field last fall. That asshat move was a disgrace and clearly detrimental to stock car racing... worse than Clint Bowyer and his "Itch it" moment in 2013.
 
LewTheShoe said:
If Nascar is going to hand down sanctions for Talladega tactics, they should start by banning Kevin Harvick from the sport for intentionally wrecking the field last fall. That asshat move was a disgrace and clearly detrimental to stock car racing... worse than Clint Bowyer and his "Itch it" moment in 2013.
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uh...................................touche. I won't argue with this, and probably should come down off my high horse in this thread.
 
Matt, Carl and Kyle all ran equal lap speeds with the leaders throughout the race, stayed out of the pack, advanced to the next round. It was not pretty, but it was and should be legal. They made a business and racing decision as a direct result of the BS chase format combined with their points standing at the time of this race. Denny did not have that business model, he had to try and finish ahead of Austin, which he barely did by the hair on his chiny chin chin.

All three of them said they hated what they did, but, that was how it had to play out. Do not blame the driver blame the game (as Kyle B said) and I cannot stand Kyle B, but as stated before by someone else, I agree with him on this one thing.
 
Where the 100 percent rule was broken, IMO, if Matt, Carl, or Kyle would have been in front of Hamlin at the end and pulled over to let him finish in front of them to advance, Nascar would have had a problem. But what they did was exactly that, Denny was never going to have to beat one of those three, therefore those three broke the 100 percent rule!
 
CalTenn said:
Where the 100 percent rule was broken, IMO, if Matt, Carl, or Kyle would have been in front of Hamlin at the end and pulled over to let him finish in front of them to advance, Nascar would have had a problem. But what they did was exactly that, Denny was never going to have to beat one of those three, therefore those three broke the 100 percent rule!
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From my new lower position, this is really a good point and highlights the absurdity of the current championship. By sandbagging, they effectively gave Hamlin a three-point cushion. hmmm.
 
29-4 said:
From my new lower position, this is really a good point and highlights the absurdity of the current championship. By sandbagging, they effectively gave Hamlin a three-point cushion. hmmm.
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Yes
 
29-4 said:
From my new lower position, this is really a good point and highlights the absurdity of the current championship. By sandbagging, they effectively gave Hamlin a three-point cushion. hmmm.
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They're all at 4000 points. No points carry through to the next round or..... maybe I don't understand your post.

Probably the latter.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
They're all at 4000 points. No points carry through to the next round or..... maybe I don't understand your post.

Probably the latter.
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A three point cushion towards making it to the next round. If they were up there racing, and 1 of the 3 had beaten Hamlin, I believe that would have put Dillon through. I think this makes what they did even worse, as it borders on true manipulation.
 
29-4 said:
A three point cushion towards making it to the next round. If they were up there racing, and 1 of the 3 had beaten Hamlin, I believe that would have put Dillon through. I think this makes what they did even worse, as it borders on true manipulation.
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K, got it now.
 
29-4 said:
Again, I think the difference is that they weren't saving it for the end of the race. That is something we have seen at the plate races for years. They continued to sandbag all the way to the checkered flag. The "different strategies" quoted by @dpkimmel2001, I think, are designed to account for drivers using this strategy early (or at least, not at the end) of the race. Now, it I'll concede it might be unfair to penalize JGR given the ambiguity in the rule. But NASCAR ought to clarify things so that such obvious sandbagging all the way to the checkered flag won't be allowed in the future. Obviously, plates aren't going away & neither is 'Dega, so NASCAR should try their best to ensure a good show for the fans.
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I can see both sides to the argument as to go to the expense of going to a race only to see your faves battle over who is going to finish as poorly as possible would be no fun but it is like when an NFL team has locked up home field advantage and rests all its starters in the last game. No fun if you have paid to see Tom Brady and you get Jacoby Brisset but I see why they do it.
 
There is no rationalizing the sheer idiocy of the current Chase system. Plate racing sucks too, but absent the Chase implications, nobody would have literal incentive to finish worse rather than better.

Any unsavory tactics used to advance snd win under this system are just byproducts of how foolish it is. I'm not a JGR fan, but don't hate the player. Hate the game.
 
Brian France made this mess with the chase,the Gibbs cars did what they had to.I feel sorry for my brother and his friends that paid big money to watch this crap.I guess next year they will take more seats out of the grandstands,to make it look full for TV.
 
29-4 said:
A three point cushion towards making it to the next round. If they were up there racing, and 1 of the 3 had beaten Hamlin, I believe that would have put Dillon through. I think this makes what they did even worse, as it borders on true manipulation.
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Would the esteemed PhD of Applied Mathematics please explain how a Gibbs car moving up from P30 to P3 would have affected Hamlin's points total more than it affected Dillon's points total, and thus would have "put Dillon through?" Thanks.
 
DSquad48 said:
Honestly, I can't fault the Gibbs guys for doing what they did. They had to do what they did to ensure they advanced under this lame ass chase system.
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and its ok use loop holes and not pay what you should on your taxes
 
29-4 said:
From my new lower position, this is really a good point and highlights the absurdity of the current championship. By sandbagging, they effectively gave Hamlin a three-point cushion. hmmm.
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Because Dillon didn't get those three points either?
 
LewTheShoe said:
Would the esteemed PhD of Applied Mathematics please explain how a Gibbs car moving up from P30 to P3 would have affected Hamlin's points total more than it affected Dillon's points total, and thus would have "put Dillon through?" Thanks.
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Hamlin wouldn't have been third under my scenario. It would have required the other JGR driver finishing between them, with Dillon ahead of Hamlin. Should have made that clear.
 
I don't blame them for riding around in the back. Plate racing is unpredictable, stupid and dangerous. One unlucky wreck and their championship hopes would be slim to none. They played a smart strategy.
 
"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Kyle Busch posted that earlier and it's true. It's not JGR fault they are playing the system correctly, no reason to be upset about what they did.

It is what it is at this point.
 
I have to look at this topic from the outside as I'm not a fan of the JGR stable of drivers. I also have to look at it as someone that attends races and not just as someone sitting home watching this race from my couch with no investment other than time.

When my wife and I go to a NASCAR race, it's a considerable investment of time/money. For us, it's not like heading down to Pittsburgh to attend a Steelers, Penguins or Pirates game. That's an afternoon or evening. Going to a race is taking time off of work for travel. Multiple tanks of fuel to haul my RV to/from the venue or to the local area, like this upcoming weekend to Martinsville. I look forward to attending these NASCAR events a year in advance, when I purchase my tickets and camping spot. I can only imagine how PO'd I'd be had I made the investment to go to Talladega as a fan of one of those three teams.

Like KB said, don't hate the player, hate the game. He's 100% correct. Those teams did exactly what they were forced to do by NASCAR under this ridiculous format. This one's on NASCAR. Just another unintended consequence in a long list of them as a result of this Chase format's implementation. More fans alienated. Not what the sport needs.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I have to look at this topic from the outside as I'm not a fan of the JGR stable of drivers. I also have to look at it as someone that attends races and not just as someone sitting home watching this race from my couch with no investment other than time.

When my wife and I go to a NASCAR race, it's a considerable investment of time/money. For us, it's not like heading down to Pittsburgh to attend a Steelers, Penguins or Pirates game. That's an afternoon or evening. Going to a race is taking time off of work for travel. Multiple tanks of fuel to haul my RV to/from the venue or to the local area, like this upcoming weekend to Martinsville. I look forward to attending these NASCAR events a year in advance, when I purchase my tickets and camping spot. I can only imagine how PO'd I'd be had I made the investment to go to Talladega as a fan of one of those three teams.

Like KB said, don't hate the player, hate the game. He's 100% correct. Those teams did exactly what they were forced to do by NASCAR under this ridiculous format. This one's on NASCAR. Just another unintended consequence in a long list of them as a result of this Chase format's implementation. More fans alienated. Not what the sport needs.
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I'm actually kind of glad it happened. Anything that exposes a flaw in this format is a good thing, IMO.
 
ToyYoda said:
I'm actually kind of glad it happened. Anything that exposes a flaw in this format is a good thing, IMO.
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The powers that be are exposed to the flaws in their format week in and week out but I'm guessing they are never going to be willing to admit that it was a mistake and go back to a proven system. Just the mere fact that this format has to continue to be tweaked year after year since its inception should tell them something. Are they listening? I'm guessing no.
 
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