Karting as a hobby

[SpeedPagan]

Background:

Back in the 90s, my brother actually raced flat-karts in the Southeast USA, and he was good enough to win track championships and won state championship in Virginia, USA. I'll be honest, as a kid I wasn't mature enough like my brother to really understand or know how to race. My brother hung up his helmet when he started college and I've been sim racing on everything from NR2003, ARCA Sim, to iRacing.

I recently sold my business that I built up over the last 14 years and when I was running the business, I didn't really have time, or energy, to devote to any hobbies really. However, now that I'm moving to a typical M-F 9-5 job, I have a lot more time on my hand than I did when I ran my business. I'm 40 (actually 39, but for the sake of simplicity let's say 40) now and I want to get into racing go-karts as a hobby.

What I'm looking for:

First off I should mention that I'm looking for something in dirt oval karting.

I live in North Carolina, not too far from Charlotte and it's a pretty good area for people like me. I was going to race at a track in someone's backyard because the track was a private karting club ($25 per race) and the owners of the track did a really good job of keeping the monetary arm's race out of the track. Which is what I was looking for. However, I recently got word that the owners is shutting down for the rest of 2023 and from the Facebook post, I'm not holding my breath for them to re-open in 2024.

Even though the karting club I was going to race at has now shut down, I still want to race. However, I honestly don't have the money to sink into getting into a monetary arm's race with everyone else in the pit area. Which is why I'm hoping to stick to a Predator Box Stock class where hopefully the cost is kept at a manageable level. Where the racing is more about driver's ability and chassis set-up rather than who can outspend who.

I realize I'm probably looking for a pipe dream, but I'd still like to find something as close to it as I can get. Like I said, this is a hobby, I have no delusion about getting into CARS Tour, or the Craftsman Truck Series. It's something for me to do at night in my garage and on the weekends during racing season.

If anyone can point me in the right direction, I would be very grateful.

Thank you and I hope y'all have a great day.

 

[SpeedPagan]

Getting ready for the 2024 season.

 

[KTMLew01]

I raced karts in late 70's early 80's. Unfortunately, even though your goals are heartfelt, it ALWAYS turns into who has the most money. Buddy and I had a convo while back about how we would run a series. You enter track w/o an engine. It gets handed to you by the track 10 minutes before practice with sealed mounting bolts used to attach all engine parts. Engine is returned at nights end. Completely random draw.

Any incidence of cheating results in permanent suspension.

Sounds good, huh? Except SOMEBODY is an attorney. Would turn into a zhit show quickly.

Had the most fun ever racing old-school 5HP Briggs. But it always went bad. That's probably why the track owners gave up. People REFUSE to just have fun.

 

[SpeedPagan]

I raced karts in late 70's early 80's. Unfortunately, even though your goals are heartfelt, it ALWAYS turns into who has the most money. Buddy and I had a convo while back about how we would run a series. You enter track w/o an engine. It gets handed to you by the track 10 minutes before practice with sealed mounting bolts used to attach all engine parts. Engine is returned at nights end. Completely random draw.

Any incidence of cheating results in permanent suspension.

Sounds good, huh? Except SOMEBODY is an attorney. Would turn into a zhit show quickly.

Had the most fun ever racing old-school 5HP Briggs. But it always went bad. That's probably why the track owners gave up. People REFUSE to just have fun.

Even back in the 90s there was an arms race when my brother was racing karts. This was back in the 5hp Briggs motors era. They were basically tiller motors that they strapped onto a kart chassis.

Of course, my dad was similar to Smoky Yunick in the way that before each karting season, he would poured over the rulebooks of every track and class my brother planned on running and see where he could exploit the rules for my brother's benefit.

I'm sure my dad & brother are responsible for a lot of the gray areas being tightened up.

Even back then, people in the pit areas would get into fights or fight on the track and these tracks were in poduck North Carolina. Most of the tracks were on unused farmland! Still, people took it way too seriously.

I think some of the parents thought their kid was going to be the next Earnhardt or Gordon, and NASCAR race teams were scouting the tracks looking for the next big driver.

TBH, it's probably worse today because now karting is how you get your start, especially over in Europe where Formula teams really are scouting the karting scene looking for the next generation of drivers.

My hope is that the DNQ Series that primarily race at Millbridge Speedway are mostly adults who are like me and are just doing this to have fun.

I'm first going to race in the DNQ Dash class, as that seems like a strictly Predator Box Stock class.

 

[kkfan91]

Even back in the 90s there was an arms race when my brother was racing karts. This was back in the 5hp Briggs motors era. They were basically tiller motors that they strapped onto a kart chassis.

Of course, my dad was similar to Smoky Yunick in the way that before each karting season, he would poured over the rulebooks of every track and class my brother planned on running and see where he could exploit the rules for my brother's benefit.

I'm sure my dad & brother are responsible for a lot of the gray areas being tightened up.

Even back then, people in the pit areas would get into fights or fight on the track and these tracks were in poduck North Carolina. Most of the tracks were on unused farmland! Still, people took it way too seriously.

I think some of the parents thought their kid was going to be the next Earnhardt or Gordon, and NASCAR race teams were scouting the tracks looking for the next big driver.

TBH, it's probably worse today because now karting is how you get your start, especially over in Europe where Formula teams really are scouting the karting scene looking for the next generation of drivers.

My hope is that the DNQ Series that primarily race at Millbridge Speedway are mostly adults who are like me and are just doing this to have fun.

I'm first going to race in the DNQ Dash class, as that seems like a strictly Predator Box Stock class.

Even in my tuff truck racing we know the one guy is cheating up his engine.

 

[Speedbowl14]

My .02$ from a lifelong short rack FAN and fan only...

Any though to just picking up a ****** street stock or mini stock? Tons and tons of parts, same safety equipment as a kart. Safer than a kart for sure. Sure you'll have to rebuild stuff as you get in wrecks, but unlike karting you'd get to race for 'some' prize money.

That's just the path I would take if I got to be a short track dirt racer.

 

[kkfan91]

My .02$ from a lifelong short rack FAN and fan only...

Any though to just picking up a ****** street stock or mini stock? Tons and tons of parts, same safety equipment as a kart. Safer than a kart for sure. Sure you'll have to rebuild stuff as you get in wrecks, but unlike karting you'd get to race for 'some' prize money.

That's just the path I would take if I got to be a short track dirt racer.

That's my plan, tuff truck was just something I stumbled into FWD is probably where I'll end up when I get some cash saved up...and more importantly buy a trailer.

 

[SpeedPagan]

My .02$ from a lifelong short rack FAN and fan only...

Any though to just picking up a ****** street stock or mini stock? Tons and tons of parts, same safety equipment as a kart. Safer than a kart for sure. Sure you'll have to rebuild stuff as you get in wrecks, but unlike karting you'd get to race for 'some' prize money.

That's just the path I would take if I got to be a short track dirt racer.

I've thought about it, but honestly, I don't really know how to work on cars aside from checking fluids, changing oil, and checking tire pressure. Hell, I only know how to manually shift on iRacing with paddle shifters.

I plan on being a one man crew as well. My brother has his hands full with a high end career as well as 4 kids on his hand. My dad is 65 and I don't think he'll want to go to the track every weekend.

I figured that it'd be easier to be a one man crew in karting than in street stock, mini stock or hornet class.

 

[StandOnIt]

There is a guy on Youtube out west that races a pretty cheap setup and does pretty good. They run those 250cc Harbor Freight Honda clone motors on dirt. He loads his in his pickup, has a Kart stand and a few tools and he is good to go. Those clone motors are simple like a Briggs flathead but way more dependable. There are all kinds of info available.

 

[SpeedPagan]

There is a guy on Youtube out west that races a pretty cheap setup and does pretty good. They run those 250cc Harbor Freight Honda clone motors on dirt. He loads his in his pickup, has a Kart stand and a few tools and he is good to go. Those clone motors are simple like a Briggs flathead but way more dependable. There are all kinds of info available.

If you can remember the channel's name, I would love to check it out.

 

[StandOnIt]

If you can remember the channel's name, I would love to check it out.

Man I looked and looked. He might have removed his channel. There are tons and tons of Kart Channels now. I went to Youtube and typed in Dirt Kart racing. I think you will find what you need.

 

[KTMLew01]

To balance out my other post, IF you can do it purely to have fun and not care where you finish, most fun ever had with my clothes on. And I raced dirt bikes for 20ish years. Karts were more fun but lots more arsehollery.

Actually I enjoyed just trail-riding and "practicing" on the dirtbike a whole lot more than the racing. Pressure. It's horrible to believe you aren't quite good enough. Had ONE good season on the bikes. Last one too.

I miss the karts way more.

 

[SpeedPagan]

To balance out my other post, IF you can do it purely to have fun and not care where you finish, most fun ever had with my clothes on. And I raced dirt bikes for 20ish years. Karts were more fun but lots more arsehollery.

Actually I enjoyed just trail-riding and "practicing" on the dirtbike a whole lot more than the racing. Pressure. It's horrible to believe you aren't quite good enough. Had ONE good season on the bikes. Last one too.

I miss the karts way more.

I mean, I'm still going to be competing for wins and points championships. I'm not just going to be riding in the back the whole time. But I'm also not going to get irrationally angry if I come up short or if my night ends early due to a wreck or a mechanical failure. I'll just sigh, load the kart onto the truck, take it home, and repair it and prep for the next race.

 

[DRS3]

https://albemarlekartclub.com/ This track is about 10 minutes from me, but it's a good ways from you. Been open a long time..

 

[SpeedPagan]

https://albemarlekartclub.com/ This track is about 10 minutes from me, but it's a good ways from you. Been open a long time..

Yea, that track is about 5 hours away from me. Looks like a great group of drivers though!

 

[DRS3]

http://www.tricountykartway.com/ near Kenly. google map kart racing, there's a bunch of tracks near you.

 

[StandOnIt]

 

[gone]

Been there done that. Raced karts off and on since the mid-1970s, including the last 20 or so years on dirt tracks in NC (mostly just a little north of where you are). Also did the one-man-team stuff the last few years. I'll tell you what I learned, although it might be a bit dated since I retired (again) about five years ago.

You really need at least one person to help you, even if they only come to the track to help you load / unload, lift your kart on and off kart stands, and to start your engine in the staging grid. Or you'll have to beg others who are there to help you do those things. Most karters are really nice and will help, but it helps a lot to have someone who is dedicated to your effort. I missed some valuable practice laps because I had to scout around for help.

The last few years I ran the Predator classes that you describe. Some tracks are working to keep the costs down in this class, but others are allowing it to spiral out of control (just like they've done in all of the previous motor classes). Generally, if a track is keeping the purse low in the class that will keep a lot of the big money out (it won't be worth it for most of the big dollar teams to enter), but still there is always a few who don't bat an eye on spending thousands of dollars just to win maybe $200. And despite what the purse is, some are so competition-crazy that they will cheat up their motors (and other pieces). Yes, there are many hop-up parts available for even the Predator engines - and there are also several models of Predator engines (some that produce more horsepower than others right out of the box).

Assuming that the track keeps a handle on engines, there is a lot of money that can be spent on chassis and tires. If everybody in your class is racing older chassis (7 years old tends to be the technology cut-off) then you can run an older chassis too - that saves money and can be as much fun as up-to-date equipment. But if your chassis is 10 years old or more, and somebody shows up with a new chassis, he'll probably lap you. That's how fast the technology changes and improvements effect kart handling drastically.

Tires are the biggest weekly cost, especially on changing dirt surfaces. You will see big money teams who have a trailer full of tires - all mounted on wheels - to choose from. Those tires have been chemically treated in different ways and amounts, and the experienced guys will know how to read and react to the track in order to choose the best set of tires for the feature race. If they do that and you don't, they will lap you. They spend thousands of dollars to develop those sets of tires / wheels, including the chemical preps. Some tracks try to police tires, but it is extremely difficult and most have given up.

Not trying to scare you off - just trying to let you know what you can be up against.

BEFORE you buy stuff, I suggest going to the track(s) that you might race and purchase a pit pass. Find the karts that you'd be racing against, check out what they have, and ask questions. You may get the most, and most honest, answers from little teams who don't have a big trailer full of tires. What you need to find out:
> What brand, model, and year chassis they're racing.
> Which Predator engine model they're racing.
> Are they allowed to modify the engine, and if so what are they allowed to do?
> What brand and model clutch are they using. Also, what size driver sprocket(s) are they using. To go with this, what rear sprocket sizes are they using?
> What brand and model tires are they using? What preps, and how are they applying them? This is a whole science in itself, with multiple ways to skin the cat, so you'll only get general info here but you need to start somewhere.

Then watch your class race. That'll show who's probably got things figured out best, and also how everybody drives.
You might also go to a website called "Bob's 4 Cycle Karting". It contains lots of forums about different tracks & engines & etc. and a lot of information. However, be careful because it is a free site and sometimes information is only as good as what you paid for it...

Best of luck! Try to have fun and focus on improving your lap times. It will be difficult to beat these guys - they have a lot of experience and investment on you - so don't allow yourself to become frustrated.

 

[SpeedPagan]

Been there done that. Raced karts off and on since the mid-1970s, including the last 20 or so years on dirt tracks in NC (mostly just a little north of where you are). Also did the one-man-team stuff the last few years. I'll tell you what I learned, although it might be a bit dated since I retired (again) about five years ago.

You really need at least one person to help you, even if they only come to the track to help you load / unload, lift your kart on and off kart stands, and to start your engine in the staging grid. Or you'll have to beg others who are there to help you do those things. Most karters are really nice and will help, but it helps a lot to have someone who is dedicated to your effort. I missed some valuable practice laps because I had to scout around for help.

The last few years I ran the Predator classes that you describe. Some tracks are working to keep the costs down in this class, but others are allowing it to spiral out of control (just like they've done in all of the previous motor classes). Generally, if a track is keeping the purse low in the class that will keep a lot of the big money out (it won't be worth it for most of the big dollar teams to enter), but still there is always a few who don't bat an eye on spending thousands of dollars just to win maybe $200. And despite what the purse is, some are so competition-crazy that they will cheat up their motors (and other pieces). Yes, there are many hop-up parts available for even the Predator engines - and there are also several models of Predator engines (some that produce more horsepower than others right out of the box).

Assuming that the track keeps a handle on engines, there is a lot of money that can be spent on chassis and tires. If everybody in your class is racing older chassis (7 years old tends to be the technology cut-off) then you can run an older chassis too - that saves money and can be as much fun as up-to-date equipment. But if your chassis is 10 years old or more, and somebody shows up with a new chassis, he'll probably lap you. That's how fast the technology changes and improvements effect kart handling drastically.

Tires are the biggest weekly cost, especially on changing dirt surfaces. You will see big money teams who have a trailer full of tires - all mounted on wheels - to choose from. Those tires have been chemically treated in different ways and amounts, and the experienced guys will know how to read and react to the track in order to choose the best set of tires for the feature race. If they do that and you don't, they will lap you. They spend thousands of dollars to develop those sets of tires / wheels, including the chemical preps. Some tracks try to police tires, but it is extremely difficult and most have given up.

Not trying to scare you off - just trying to let you know what you can be up against.

BEFORE you buy stuff, I suggest going to the track(s) that you might race and purchase a pit pass. Find the karts that you'd be racing against, check out what they have, and ask questions. You may get the most, and most honest, answers from little teams who don't have a big trailer full of tires. What you need to find out:
> What brand, model, and year chassis they're racing.
> Which Predator engine model they're racing.
> Are they allowed to modify the engine, and if so what are they allowed to do?
> What brand and model clutch are they using. Also, what size driver sprocket(s) are they using. To go with this, what rear sprocket sizes are they using?
> What brand and model tires are they using? What preps, and how are they applying them? This is a whole science in itself, with multiple ways to skin the cat, so you'll only get general info here but you need to start somewhere.

Then watch your class race. That'll show who's probably got things figured out best, and also how everybody drives.
You might also go to a website called "Bob's 4 Cycle Karting". It contains lots of forums about different tracks & engines & etc. and a lot of information. However, be careful because it is a free site and sometimes information is only as good as what you paid for it...

Best of luck! Try to have fun and focus on improving your lap times. It will be difficult to beat these guys - they have a lot of experience and investment on you - so don't allow yourself to become frustrated.

Thank you, this is some great information! I'm just going to address a few point based on the people I talked to and what I've read in the rulebook.

Right now I'm looking at racing the DNQ League that primary races at Millbridge Speedway at Salisbury, North Carolina. They also do a race at the Iredell County Fairgrounds. For my first season, I'll be running in the DNQ Dash Series and after awhile I may move up into their Busch Series in 2025, depending on how I do in the Dash series. Both the Dash and Busch series are Box Stock Predator Class and looking at their rulebook and Facebook post, they seem to really clamp down on illegal modification of the motor or chemical prepping the tires. Although you can still grind, snipe & swipe the treaded tires. The Dash series run Hoosier D30 treaded tires only.

Woodleaf Raceway does run a Ducar 212cc 390 Box Stock class, from the Woodleaf Ducar rules, it seems similiar to DNQ's ruleset, but they do allow some light modification of the engine. They run the Maxxis HT3 tires, which I'm assuming means both blues and pinks. So I may be able to mix and match the tires for stagger on my kart. I don't know what Woodleaf's rule is on tire prep, whether it's no chemical but you can still grind the tires, or no prep at all, or chemcial prepping is allowed. I also don't know how seriously Woodleaf enforces it rules for the Ducar class, so that's definitely something I'm going to have to look into.

DNQ are very transparent about their tech inspection process, posting everything on their Facebook page and I'd imagine they're just as transparent on the track. Right now, I just don't know how strict Woodleaf enforces their rules because their social medias are barely used by the track.

I do plan on visiting Millbridge on October the 11th for the next DNQ League race night and talking to the Predator guys in the pit area. I also plan on attending the next Ducar race at Woodleaf on October the 20th. A little off topic, but I'll also be going back to Millbridge for the Carolina Micro Showdown.

I do plan on buying one of those one man's kart stands that'll allow easy loading and unloading of your kart and allow you to get the kart up on the stand and off the stand by yourself. So far I've only seen demonstrations with road karts, not oval karts. So I may have to e-mail a few of the companies who make them and see if their one man kart stand will work for oval kart chassis. I don't really have any plan for how to start my motor when gridding other than starting the motor myself and jumping into the kart before it rolls away.

For at least the first season, I plan on transporting everything on the back of my truck with a toolbox and using my back seat to store stuff. I may get a used plumber or general contractor van down the line to be my kart hauler. But that's all in the future.

Once again, I really appreciate your post and it offers some great insight into mostly modern day karting.

PS, I've already signed up for Bob's 4 cycle karting, I'm Uncle_Sean84 on there.

 

[gone]

Thank you, this is some great information! I'm just going to address a few point based on the people I talked to and what I've read in the rulebook.

Right now I'm looking at racing the DNQ League that primary races at Millbridge Speedway at Salisbury, North Carolina. They also do a race at the Iredell County Fairgrounds. For my first season, I'll be running in the DNQ Dash Series and after awhile I may move up into their Busch Series in 2025, depending on how I do in the Dash series. Both the Dash and Busch series are Box Stock Predator Class and looking at their rulebook and Facebook post, they seem to really clamp down on illegal modification of the motor or chemical prepping the tires. Although you can still grind, snipe & swipe the treaded tires. The Dash series run Hoosier D30 treaded tires only.

Woodleaf Raceway does run a Ducar 212cc 390 Box Stock class, from the Woodleaf Ducar rules, it seems similiar to DNQ's ruleset, but they do allow some light modification of the engine. They run the Maxxis HT3 tires, which I'm assuming means both blues and pinks. So I may be able to mix and match the tires for stagger on my kart. I don't know what Woodleaf's rule is on tire prep, whether it's no chemical but you can still grind the tires, or no prep at all, or chemcial prepping is allowed. I also don't know how seriously Woodleaf enforces it rules for the Ducar class, so that's definitely something I'm going to have to look into.

DNQ are very transparent about their tech inspection process, posting everything on their Facebook page and I'd imagine they're just as transparent on the track. Right now, I just don't know how strict Woodleaf enforces their rules because their social medias are barely used by the track.

I do plan on visiting Millbridge on October the 11th for the next DNQ League race night and talking to the Predator guys in the pit area. I also plan on attending the next Ducar race at Woodleaf on October the 20th. A little off topic, but I'll also be going back to Millbridge for the Carolina Micro Showdown.

I do plan on buying one of those one man's kart stands that'll allow easy loading and unloading of your kart and allow you to get the kart up on the stand and off the stand by yourself. So far I've only seen demonstrations with road karts, not oval karts. So I may have to e-mail a few of the companies who make them and see if their one man kart stand will work for oval kart chassis. I don't really have any plan for how to start my motor when gridding other than starting the motor myself and jumping into the kart before it rolls away.

For at least the first season, I plan on transporting everything on the back of my truck with a toolbox and using my back seat to store stuff. I may get a used plumber or general contractor van down the line to be my kart hauler. But that's all in the future.

Once again, I really appreciate your post and it offers some great insight into mostly modern day karting.

PS, I've already signed up for Bob's 4 cycle karting, I'm Uncle_Sean84 on there.

You're welcome. I like to try to help new racers, and I've seen many get frustrated and quit after a short time because they didn't realize that kart racing (particularly in NASCAR country) is very competitive - meaning, there are a lot of people who will spend a lot of money and even hire experienced crewmen in order to somehow win a race Saturday night believing that will lead to a Cup ride on Sunday.

I have not been to Millbridge - I was planning on trying it about ten years ago, but then the NASCAR crowd swooped in and I could not compete financially. I hear it's a well run track and pretty racy. I was also not familiar with the DNQ League so I looked up their rules. Looks like they're making an attempt to keep costs down via modification limits, but I see several areas that they do not specifically address so you can bet there are teams playing in the gray areas. When I was racing, the "Hemi" version of the Predator was the preferred engine... I don't know if that is still true (nor do I know if it is still sold, or if the ones sold today are the same as the ones I bought years ago). The problem with the Predator (and the Ducar, and all of the "clone" engines) is that they are made under limited contracts via different factories (mostly Chinese) so due to changing factories and parts tolerances there will be some engines that are better out-of-the-box than others... to get one of those better engines some teams buy and test a whole bunch of engines. They may also mix and match parts to build a "best case" engine (which means they buy and test a lot of parts). I also worry about the rule "ALL ENGINES AND PARTS WILL BE COMPARED TO A KNOWN STOCK ENGINE AND STOCK PARTS". Which specific engine? I was aware of at least five different store catalog numbers for 212cc Predator engines, and there could be more now. I had an engine fail tech that I honestly never opened up (just opened the box and bolted it on the kart, and did the minor modifications same as allowed by the DNQ rules) because it was "out of tolerance" compared to the engine that the track used as its "stock sample". (The track's engine had a different catalog number than my engine.) Of course, they are unlikely to tech your engine unless you are running away from the field.

I used to run at Woodleaf (even finished fourth in the heavy Predator class points there) but that was under previous management. They kind-of enforced rules - they relied mostly on the governor test and I rarely saw them open an engine up or do a fuel test. But I do not know who is doing tech there now. After I left the people who run Liberty Raceway Park began running Woodleaf sporadically, and I'm told that they were pretty good at tech, but I don't know for sure since I never raced at Liberty and never raced at Woodleaf after the Liberty folks came in. Tech enforcement is something that you have to experience for a while at a track to know what they're doing (or not), and then expect it to change because tech men come and go or people complain about different stuff. You will find that there is more overall speed to be found in handling than in the engine, and handling is dominated by tires tires tires!

Speaking of tires, I'm impressed that DNQ is trying to police tires... but I'll have to see it to believe it because I've heard this story many times before. It is very difficult to enforce tire prep rules, and their rule "if tires smell like prep you will be automatically suspended" sounds like an open door to a lot of arguments. Be aware that tires are prepped not only by applying chemicals to the outside tread surface but also by squirting it inside the tires after mounting them on wheels. I hope that DNQ can successfully police tire prepping, but many before them have failed - including the WKA (World Karting Association) which has been around for decades and whose basic rules pretty much set the rules that all tracks around your area use. I worry about DNQ's "Min Duro" rules - tire durometers are notorious for reading differently from each other. You'll want to compare your durometer's reading to the tech man's durometer.

About those one man kart stands. Before buying one, have the seller demonstrate it to you. Some are much better made than others. We had one that we had to keep fixing (its electric motor control kept burning out, then there were failing welds). Ours hooked around the kart's back bumper and put enough pressure there to eventually bend that part of the kart (because the lift arms that were supposed to come up to support the front of the kart didn't work well). Hopefully there are better lifts now. You will still need help getting your kart in and out of your truck (I used a 12 passenger van that I removed the back two bench seats from). In the Predator class you may not need a helper to start your engine - I used to choke it and pull the cord while standing beside the kart, then once it was idling I could climb into the seat. If you have your clutch set to engage at an r.p.m. above idle (which is normal) then you should be able to control your kart and do what I did - it shouldn't roll away. In the Ducor classes starting yourself / controlling the kart while you climb in will be more challenging.

Good luck at Millbridge. If they enforce their rules then it might not matter that you're racing against people who are professional racers in NASCAR and ARCA. (The drivers are usually not professional drivers, but there are professional racing mechanics or kids of professional racers... although folks like Kyle Larson have been known to show up to drive in the top class). If you keep your eyes and ears open you can learn a lot from racers like those. Woodleaf used to attract more of a hobby racer crowd, but if the Liberty people are still running it then they attract the best of the hobby crowd. So expect competition to be tough, and don't let it intimidate or frustrate you. Be wary of people offering to sell you tire programs or engine programs or similar arrangements. As a rookie you probably will not be able to take advantage of it enough to get your money's worth - in my opinion it's better as a rookie to run as best you can (even flounder) for a while until you get enough experience to start to get a handle on what's going on and where you need to improve.

 

[SpeedPagan]

You're welcome. I like to try to help new racers, and I've seen many get frustrated and quit after a short time because they didn't realize that kart racing (particularly in NASCAR country) is very competitive - meaning, there are a lot of people who will spend a lot of money and even hire experienced crewmen in order to somehow win a race Saturday night believing that will lead to a Cup ride on Sunday.

I have not been to Millbridge - I was planning on trying it about ten years ago, but then the NASCAR crowd swooped in and I could not compete financially. I hear it's a well run track and pretty racy. I was also not familiar with the DNQ League so I looked up their rules. Looks like they're making an attempt to keep costs down via modification limits, but I see several areas that they do not specifically address so you can bet there are teams playing in the gray areas. When I was racing, the "Hemi" version of the Predator was the preferred engine... I don't know if that is still true (nor do I know if it is still sold, or if the ones sold today are the same as the ones I bought years ago). The problem with the Predator (and the Ducar, and all of the "clone" engines) is that they are made under limited contracts via different factories (mostly Chinese) so due to changing factories and parts tolerances there will be some engines that are better out-of-the-box than others... to get one of those better engines some teams buy and test a whole bunch of engines. They may also mix and match parts to build a "best case" engine (which means they buy and test a lot of parts). I also worry about the rule "ALL ENGINES AND PARTS WILL BE COMPARED TO A KNOWN STOCK ENGINE AND STOCK PARTS". Which specific engine? I was aware of at least five different store catalog numbers for 212cc Predator engines, and there could be more now. I had an engine fail tech that I honestly never opened up (just opened the box and bolted it on the kart, and did the minor modifications same as allowed by the DNQ rules) because it was "out of tolerance" compared to the engine that the track used as its "stock sample". (The track's engine had a different catalog number than my engine.) Of course, they are unlikely to tech your engine unless you are running away from the field.

I used to run at Woodleaf (even finished fourth in the heavy Predator class points there) but that was under previous management. They kind-of enforced rules - they relied mostly on the governor test and I rarely saw them open an engine up or do a fuel test. But I do not know who is doing tech there now. After I left the people who run Liberty Raceway Park began running Woodleaf sporadically, and I'm told that they were pretty good at tech, but I don't know for sure since I never raced at Liberty and never raced at Woodleaf after the Liberty folks came in. Tech enforcement is something that you have to experience for a while at a track to know what they're doing (or not), and then expect it to change because tech men come and go or people complain about different stuff. You will find that there is more overall speed to be found in handling than in the engine, and handling is dominated by tires tires tires!

Speaking of tires, I'm impressed that DNQ is trying to police tires... but I'll have to see it to believe it because I've heard this story many times before. It is very difficult to enforce tire prep rules, and their rule "if tires smell like prep you will be automatically suspended" sounds like an open door to a lot of arguments. Be aware that tires are prepped not only by applying chemicals to the outside tread surface but also by squirting it inside the tires after mounting them on wheels. I hope that DNQ can successfully police tire prepping, but many before them have failed - including the WKA (World Karting Association) which has been around for decades and whose basic rules pretty much set the rules that all tracks around your area use. I worry about DNQ's "Min Duro" rules - tire durometers are notorious for reading differently from each other. You'll want to compare your durometer's reading to the tech man's durometer.

About those one man kart stands. Before buying one, have the seller demonstrate it to you. Some are much better made than others. We had one that we had to keep fixing (its electric motor control kept burning out, then there were failing welds). Ours hooked around the kart's back bumper and put enough pressure there to eventually bend that part of the kart (because the lift arms that were supposed to come up to support the front of the kart didn't work well). Hopefully there are better lifts now. You will still need help getting your kart in and out of your truck (I used a 12 passenger van that I removed the back two bench seats from). In the Predator class you may not need a helper to start your engine - I used to choke it and pull the cord while standing beside the kart, then once it was idling I could climb into the seat. If you have your clutch set to engage at an r.p.m. above idle (which is normal) then you should be able to control your kart and do what I did - it shouldn't roll away. In the Ducor classes starting yourself / controlling the kart while you climb in will be more challenging.

Good luck at Millbridge. If they enforce their rules then it might not matter that you're racing against people who are professional racers in NASCAR and ARCA. (The drivers are usually not professional drivers, but there are professional racing mechanics or kids of professional racers... although folks like Kyle Larson have been known to show up to drive in the top class). If you keep your eyes and ears open you can learn a lot from racers like those. Woodleaf used to attract more of a hobby racer crowd, but if the Liberty people are still running it then they attract the best of the hobby crowd. So expect competition to be tough, and don't let it intimidate or frustrate you. Be wary of people offering to sell you tire programs or engine programs or similar arrangements. As a rookie you probably will not be able to take advantage of it enough to get your money's worth - in my opinion it's better as a rookie to run as best you can (even flounder) for a while until you get enough experience to start to get a handle on what's going on and where you need to improve.

Yea, I don't really have the money to buy like 50 or 100 Predators and test run them all and combine all the different parts into a super Predator motor that can still pass tech, so I'll just have to hope that my motor, tire, and chassis are good enough. I do plan on buying a new chassis. I was going to buy used, but some of the people selling used chassis are delusional in their prices. I saw one guy selling a 2002 Chassis for at least $2,000. So I said **** it, and I plan on buying a Phantom Chassis since that's the chassis my brother raced back in the day.

Yea, I know I'm going to be a complete newb when it comes to go-kart racing. I'm not expecting to set the world on fire during my first season on the clay ovals of Millbridge and Woodleaf. I'm just hoping to get enough seat time in and really learn how to race go-karts and be competitive. One thing I've found out that kinda annoys me is that DNQ only runs once a month and Woodleaf seems to be the same way. Back in the 80s and 90s, you could race go-karts every week. There were other tracks like Tyro, Two Flags, a track that was in the middle of a farm that I forgot the name of. You could always find a race for any given weekend. But Tyro, Two Flags and other clay oval go-kart tracks have closed down over the years and it seems like it's harder to get consistent seat time without having to wait a month in between.

But yea, this first season is 100% going to be about learning the ins and out of go-kart racing from motors, to tires, to chassis adjustments. Also making sure I have all my tools and my safety equipment ready to go. My dad gave me a used motorcycle helmet (he loves riding motorcycles) and I plan on buying neck brace and rib protector as well as a suit, gloves and shoes. First season is all about learning what I need to learn.

After the first full season, I do plan on being more aggressive and being more competitive.

 

[gone]

Yea, I don't really have the money to buy like 50 or 100 Predators and test run them all and combine all the different parts into a super Predator motor that can still pass tech, so I'll just have to hope that my motor, tire, and chassis are good enough. I do plan on buying a new chassis. I was going to buy used, but some of the people selling used chassis are delusional in their prices. I saw one guy selling a 2002 Chassis for at least $2,000. So I said **** it, and I plan on buying a Phantom Chassis since that's the chassis my brother raced back in the day.

Yea, I know I'm going to be a complete newb when it comes to go-kart racing. I'm not expecting to set the world on fire during my first season on the clay ovals of Millbridge and Woodleaf. I'm just hoping to get enough seat time in and really learn how to race go-karts and be competitive. One thing I've found out that kinda annoys me is that DNQ only runs once a month and Woodleaf seems to be the same way. Back in the 80s and 90s, you could race go-karts every week. There were other tracks like Tyro, Two Flags, a track that was in the middle of a farm that I forgot the name of. You could always find a race for any given weekend. But Tyro, Two Flags and other clay oval go-kart tracks have closed down over the years and it seems like it's harder to get consistent seat time without having to wait a month in between.

But yea, this first season is 100% going to be about learning the ins and out of go-kart racing from motors, to tires, to chassis adjustments. Also making sure I have all my tools and my safety equipment ready to go. My dad gave me a used motorcycle helmet (he loves riding motorcycles) and I plan on buying neck brace and rib protector as well as a suit, gloves and shoes. First season is all about learning what I need to learn.

After the first full season, I do plan on being more aggressive and being more competitive.

Overall, you will probably be happier and more competitive with a new chassis. Because kart chassis are made to flex (since they have no suspension) a used chassis can be tweaked without you knowing it - and cause you to chase your tail trying to make it handle. Phantom makes good chassis, and they provide a lot of set-up information (on their web site and you can also call them). They can give you a good baseline setup for the tracks you want to run.

I'm bummed too that tracks have been shutting down. Woodleaf used to run every weekend - even into the winter. When the Liberty folks started running it they cut the schedule back (they have to run their own track too). I used to race at Tyro - I think they built houses on it. Tyro was like Liberty - it attracted the best hobbyists and some kart shop sponsored teams, too. Back then I had a second kart that I let a neighborhood kid race. He "raced" against Brian Vickers there... I put "raced" in quotes because our kart was outdated and Vickers lapped us easily. Never went to Two Flags, but a lot of other tracks we used to run are also gone now.

At Woodleaf they used to allow you to come practice on non-racing days. They wouldn't prep the track or turn on the lights, and there was no safety crew, and you couldn't fire your engine before 10:00 in the morning (to avoid bothering the neighbors). Don't know if they still allow that - wouldn't hurt to ask. We would practice on Sunday mornings following the usual Saturday night races. The track would be nicely broken in from the previous night, and you could run good laps until the afternoon sun finally dried the track too much.

Check that helmet for a Snell sticker, and for its date. Motorcycle helmets are usually fine for karts, but some tracks are picky about it being Snell rated and also it not being too old. I don't see any safety equipment rules listed for DNQ or for Woodleaf, so you might want to contact them to find out if they expect anything in particular. Millbridge just says that it has to have a DOT or Snell sticker, but does not specify any particular year.

A couple of tips to help avoid getting run over your first few races: until you've run several races and think you're getting the idea, ask them to start you in the back of the field instead of drawing for your starting spot or starting on your qualifying time. And if you have choices of where to race but one track is hosting a "money race" avoid the "money race". The other drivers get really aggressive during "money races" and some don't care if they wreck you.

 

[gone]

Another tip to avoid getting run over: try to run in the fast groove, but be prepared to move over if you're getting lapped. Different tracks prefer that you either move to the inside or to the outside - ask during the driver's meeting. If you're getting lapped by a pack, hold a consistent line (don't move back and forth among lanes) and let the other guys figure out how to get past.

Not assuming that you're going to be slow and get lapped - just saying from experience with rookie drivers.

 

[SpeedPagan]

So I went to the Liberty Raceway Park website and looked at their Predator rulebook. Doesn't really offer anymore insight into Woodleaf's Ducar class. So that's kinda disappointing. But, I'm going to Woodleaf on the 20th, and I'll talk to the Ducar guys.

 

[kkfan91]

All I really know about the engines and things is that at least up hear the tracks end up with like 20 different classes that basically look the same but have weird little motor differences a novice can't tell. Just leads to a lot of classes with like 3 people.

 

[gone]

So I went to the Liberty Raceway Park website and looked at their Predator rulebook. Doesn't really offer anymore insight into Woodleaf's Ducar class. So that's kinda disappointing. But, I'm going to Woodleaf on the 20th, and I'll talk to the Ducar guys.

Apparently the 212cc Ducar engine is a new candidate for Predator classes. DynoCams is a retailer, and they have a rulebook for it on their website at https://www.dynocams.com/catalog/documents/212-RULES.pdf.

In my experience DynoCams is a good company with good products. However, this new Ducar engine is yet another typical step in the "progress" of kart engines that keeps driving the cost of karting too high and hurting it. Note that the Ducar engine costs almost twice as much as the Predator engines that it is competing against.

This looks like a repeat of what has been a failing trend in karting since at least the 1990s. Back in the 1990s, the 5 hp flathead Briggs & Stratton engine was very popular, but sanctioning bodies and tracks allowed more and more modifications - even in the "stock" classes - until a competitive "stock" engine (that started out costing around $150) cost $1200 and up. Tracks and eventually the sanctioning bodies noticed that car counts were dropping. Also about the same time, Honda developed an overhead valve engine for small equipment in response to new EPA rules. Soon there were copies of the Honda design being produced in China, and Harbor Freight was one of the retailers - called them "Predator". In general, the copycat engines were called "clones", and they were cheap. Karting adopted the clones, and vowed to write rules and police them so that they would not make the same costly mistake they'd made with the Briggs engines.

That didn't last very long. After 4 or 5 years we were back to $1200 and more built up clone engines. Some racing kart parts producers and suppliers started offering their own versions of the clones, which helped drive the prices up. This is why I'm skeptical about the Ducar engines.

The excuse for driving up the cost of the clone engines was "durability" and "safety" and "speed". Many times the excuses were self-serving. Yes racers always want more speed, but there are other ways of obtaining it without modifying the engine. To go along with more speed you usually get more r.p.m. The factory flywheels were unsafe at the r.p.m. that the modified engines were running, so safety dictated a new specially cast flywheel... of course, it cost at least twice as much as the factory flywheel... This is just one example of modifications leading to more and more cost. Another example: truly stock clone engines could race at least a whole season without more than oil changes, and I knew people who got multiple seasons out of them. Today's competitive clone engine needs to be rebuilt (at a cost of hundreds of dollars) about every 10 races (and some racers rebuild them more often than that). Yet kart tracks and sanctioning bodies wonder why car counts continue to go down, and tracks are closing...

Will the Ducar and its rules stop this insanity? I hope, but my experience indicates it won't. I do know that I ran my truly box stock Predators for five years without needing any maintenance beyond oil changes... and that I bought them for $99 each (with coupon)... At that low price I figured that if I hurt an engine I'd just toss it into the parts bin and bolt on another. At around $247 for the Ducar I might have the same luck, but I'd still be paying a lot more for an engine. If the Ducar is faster than a Predator, then racers who want to win will have to buy the Ducar... and climb aboard the rising cost spiral again...

 

[gone]

All I really know about the engines and things is that at least up hear the tracks end up with like 20 different classes that basically look the same but have weird little motor differences a novice can't tell. Just leads to a lot of classes with like 3 people.

You're right - karting has had a "too many look-alike classes" problem since around the early 1980s. It's because of two things: allowing different levels of engine modifications, and also because weight differences of as little as 25 pounds can make a significant speed difference for a racing kart. (BTW, karts are weighed with driver and the driver is usually the main weight difference).

When karting started, most people were using 2-cycle engines between 80cc and 200cc. There are a lot of different engines available, especially if you included foreign made engines. Karting sanctioning bodies needed a way to "make things fair", but they also wanted to allow most of those engines, so they worked with tracks to create a race qualifying system. You would get timed qualifying laps and they would group you into classes with racers who had similar qualifying times as yours. It was nice because it tended to pit racers with similar skills and budgets and experience together - you would be less frustrated because you usually weren't competing against people who were out of your league. The downside was that qualifying lengthened out the race program, and that they had to police sandbagging.

Some time in the 1980s there was a major engine situation change. A lot of the 2-cycle engines were no longer being manufactured so engines and parts got expensive and harder to get. Briggs & Stratton made a deal with the biggest karting sanctioning body of the time - the WKA (World Karting Association) for WKA to develop new class rules that favored their 5 hp flathead engine. In the process, WKA also wanted to make kart racing emulate car racing so they developed a class structure based upon engine (mostly the Briggs) and how much modifications it had as well as driver age and total kart weight classifications. For example, anybody running a "stock" Briggs engine could also choose which weight class he wanted to run. Tracks might still have you run qualifying laps, or they might just have you draw for a heat race starting position. This was good since it worked more like car racing (but still compensated for weight differences) but it also makes you race against people with more experience and / or bigger budgets than yours - plus your complaint that it creates a lot of classes that look alike and might have few cars.

Another reason is that kart chassis and bodywork has evolved to where they mostly all look alike. Often the engine (and its level of modifications) is the only major difference. We have two main flavors: regular karts (now called "flat karts") and "Champ" or "Cage" karts (that look like miniature Sprint cars).

Ever notice that some of the same karts appear in more than one weight class? Some tracks have as many as five different weight classes for the same engine. Some teams have multiple drivers (who sign up for different weight classes) or they use the same driver but bolt on / take off lead weight to meet different class rules. Tracks like this because they get more entry fees, and it helps disguise their low car counts.

 

[SpeedPagan]

Ahh, I remember the flathead 5hp Briggs and Stratton motors from the 80s and 90s. They started off as tiller motors or motors for equipment that you'd use around the home. People would take the B&S off of those equipment and strap them to the karts. Then people started modifying those old tiller motors because they wanted to get more power and speed out of them. I think it was also a reliability issue because I remember my dad and brother having to rebuild their B&S in between the weekend races. I dunno if the stock B&S just wasn't meant to be racing motors, or if it was something else. My dad used to have a motor dyno in his shop for my brother's kart program. He sold it after my brother went to college.

My dad said that he sold his Dodge Challenger to get my brother into karting and it cost $10k a season for them to race. However, they had like two to three karts, and they were running in multiple tracks in multiple classes. So I don't really know if that $10k figure was because they were running every weekend at different tracks and different classes, or if it was the arm's race between teams on who had the better motor, better tires, better chassis etc.

What I'm hoping is that by staying in the Predator Box Stock class, I can keep my cost reasonable and manageable while still being competitive and have close racing. As the old saying goes though, **** in one hand, hope in the other and see which one fills up first. I originally though the Ducar was simply meant to be a Predator clone that's meant for go-kart racing, but if it sparks off another arms race, I may not even bother racing in the Ducar class. I'm only interested in Box Stock only.

 

[gone]

Ahh, I remember the flathead 5hp Briggs and Stratton motors from the 80s and 90s. They started off as tiller motors or motors for equipment that you'd use around the home. People would take the B&S off of those equipment and strap them to the karts. Then people started modifying those old tiller motors because they wanted to get more power and speed out of them. I think it was also a reliability issue because I remember my dad and brother having to rebuild their B&S in between the weekend races. I dunno if the stock B&S just wasn't meant to be racing motors, or if it was something else. My dad used to have a motor dyno in his shop for my brother's kart program. He sold it after my brother went to college.

My dad said that he sold his Dodge Challenger to get my brother into karting and it cost $10k a season for them to race. However, they had like two to three karts, and they were running in multiple tracks in multiple classes. So I don't really know if that $10k figure was because they were running every weekend at different tracks and different classes, or if it was the arm's race between teams on who had the better motor, better tires, better chassis etc.

What I'm hoping is that by staying in the Predator Box Stock class, I can keep my cost reasonable and manageable while still being competitive and have close racing. As the old saying goes though, **** in one hand, hope in the other and see which one fills up first. I originally though the Ducar was simply meant to be a Predator clone that's meant for go-kart racing, but if it sparks off another arms race, I may not even bother racing in the Ducar class. I'm only interested in Box Stock only.

When I started kart racing in the 1970s there already were some guys racing the Briggs flathead, but there were only a few of them. Most tracks had just two classes for them: "stock appearing" and "modified" (and no weight classes). Meaning that they didn't check if anything had been done inside the motor - they looked to see if you were running a stock carburetor or not. The modified guys were using Tillotson carburetors that required an aftermarket manifold and external fuel tank, so that was obvious.

I used to buy old tillers for around $50 to get their engines. Used up a lot of those engines over the years. Yes, they were only designed for short duty cycles in stock configuration - not for racing. We could get about 8 hp by modifying the 5 hp engine and still stay within the "stock" class rules... the full modified guys were getting around 25 hp, so yeah those 5 hp engine blocks did not live long.

Doesn't surprise me that your Dad and brother were spending $10k per season by running all of those karts in multiple classes at several tracks. Today's "arm's race" in tires can cost that much alone for the really serious guys. I always thought those guys were nuts, and I'd see a lot of them quit after only a few seasons. You can run a lower-class full sized race car at several tracks cheaper than that, and run for bigger purses. I raced on a much lower budget, and of course that meant I only won occasionally, but I would consider it a successful night when I might have only run fifth but still beat three or four budget-is-no-object teams.

I suggest starting out with just the Predator, and not buying a Ducar unless your favorite track requires one. Even if the Ducar turns out to have a performance advantage, as a rookie you will have so many other things to learn that you will probably not be able to take advantage of a Ducar (so why spend the extra money?).

If track owners are smart they will keep money out of the hobby level Predator classes. Enforce box stock rules, try to police tires, and keep the purses low. When I was last running the Predator class at Woodleaf I saw this typical downward spiral: started out with just low budget guys with older (cheaper) equipment, and got good car counts. Problem: they based the purse on how many entry fees they got. The Predator classes started out as very affordable and fun, so they attracted a lot of entries. Under the track's purse formula, the payout got pretty big - and got the attention of the hotdog teams. Hotdog teams started entering the Predator classes, and it was easy pickings for them because they had top shelf equipment. A number of the original Predator class guys started to drop out because they couldn't compete with the hotdogs. I suggested to track management that they should cap the purse at $200 total (total pay for first, second and third places) no matter how many entries they had. Most of the original Predator class guys told me they'd be happy to race for no purse, whereas the hotdogs wouldn't hang around because there wouldn't be enough money in it for them. The track could gain back more hobby guys than they would lose hotdogs. Plus some hobby guys would graduate to the upper classes. But management balked at that idea, and instead started holding "money races" with big purses. Those money races chased off most of the hobby guys, and the races were typical slam-bam affairs among hotdogs. Overall car count dropped, and management thought the answer was to hold more and higher paying money races... one of the reasons that management is not around anymore is because they couldn't afford their operating expenses. Sadly, over the years I've seen this play out again and again - and heard lots of track and sanctioning body managers vow that they won't make this mistake again, but they keep repeating it anyway. I've been told that I am full of it, but I actually proved my formula works (at a track where the owner got greedy and sabotaged my efforts until he killed it). Oh well.

 

[SpeedPagan]

I'm just getting around to this because I've been sick since I got back from Millbridge, but I am back and I am feeling better. So Wednesday night I went to Millbridge, I talked to some of the guys in the pit areas. I even got to meet Moonhead! He's pretty big in the iRacing circles for his MoonCar racing series, so it was nice to meet the man who was racing in the DNQ's ARCA Series. The DNQ Series is apparently not a Millbridge sanctioned series, so that's why it's always run on the weekdays instead of the weekend where Millbridge run their main classes, the kids and the Micro-Sprints.

Honestly, it does seem like the DNQ sanctioning body runs a pretty tight ship, on Wednesday, the class with the highest kart count was the ARCA class, which had Practice/Qualifying, B-Main and then the A-Main. All the other classes had Practice/Qualifying and then the A-Main. I took a close look at the tires, motors and the chassis. The most popular chassis in the series seem to be the Phantom Recon, it doesn't matter if you're running the Dash series, or the National Championship Series. The only exception was the Champ Karts (DNQ's USACK). But yea, it was either Predators, or motors conforming to the AKRA or NKA rulebooks, depending on the series that the DNQ sanctioning body runs.

Really, the whole evening was grassroot kart racing. Like, if you took a picture of this in the 50s to 60s and you had people lining up their vehicles to light up the track at night, it's the same feel. There were some karts there that were obviously well funded with sponsors, but I don't know if they were DNQ regulars or if they only ran DNQ for the extra seat time in preparation for the main classes that they run. However, a lot of the teams there were unloading from the back of their trucks, out of small kart trailers.

I didn't really get a chance to take a look at the post-practice, or post-race inspection of the karts because I wanted to see how everyone raced each other on the track. Aside from two assholes, everyone raced pretty clean, there were beatin' and bangin' as you'd expect, but aside from one guy diving it into turn 1 and sliding up to side swipe someone else which resulted in third kart flipping over, and one guy trying to unplug the spark plug of another kart, it was just racing.

I did take a look at the payout and ARCA payout to the winner was $420 for the winner. Dash series payout to the winner was $180.

There are some parts of the rulebooks I still don't understand, but that's me being a newbie at kart racing and nothing at all to do with DNQ. Below is my gallery from that night.

Wednesday Night DNQ Series

 

[gone]

Not surprised that you saw a lot of Phantom karts there - they make very good karts, and they are also local. Probably would be a good place to start. But there are quite a few other very good kart manufacturers out there... even some guys who just build a few per year out of their sheds. If you reach a plateau running the same thing that everybody else does, changing to a good competitor chassis might be the ticket. As you race you will see those other good candidate karts.

Thanks for the pictures. A few raise some questions...
The picture of the 98 kart that you captioned "Stagger!". Maybe just the angle, but it looks like the LR is bigger than the RR. That would be reverse stagger at most tracks (would tend to push the kart to the outside of the track). Were a lot of karts doing this? Not saying it can't work - I used it successfully back in the 1990s at a track near Mt. Airy called "Hillside". It only worked there because there used to be a rut along the insides of the turns - you could hook the rut and it would drag you around like you had a slot car. Most tracks stagger with the right side tires bigger.

Also, that 98 kart appears to have a lot of weight bolted directly to its fiberglass seat. I thought that wasn't legal anymore. Some tracks had trouble with seats breaking and weights flying off and hitting people, so they outlawed or limited how much you could mount like that.

And, of course, I haven't seen treaded tires legal since the 1980s. I know the DNQ specifies them (and also that tracks in other parts of the country allow them), but I've had to run slicks forever it seems.

Interesting that the picture of the Kart Lift shows disconnected wires. I don't remember the brand that my buddy used, but he had trouble with its motor control electronics burning out. Maybe that's going on here?

That "Another restart of ARCA B-Main" is interesting. Surprised that they allowed the leader a whole kart-length on the rest of the field. Or does DNQ use "Delaware Restarts"?

The "Clutches for days!" picture makes me think that everybody is using top shelf multiple disc clutches now. When I was in the Predator classes those clutches were legal, but they were considered overkill. We used to run shoe clutches at a fraction of the cost. Wonder if competition has become so tight in the Predator classes today that people feel they need any little advantage that they can find? Could be driving up the cost of this class.


Most tracks tolerate slide jobs (what you described as "one guy diving it into turn 1 and sliding up to side swipe someone else") although I've seen them black flag and even banish guys who do it too much and cause wrecks. Trying to unplug somebody's sparkplug can get you disqualified and banned from most tracks. Some tracks require you to install a zip tie around the spark plug wire, near the spark plug, so if you're in a wreck first responders can quickly stop your engine. Those tracks had rules that other drivers were not allowed to grab that zip tie.


Sounds like you had fun! If there are parts of rulebooks you don't understand, shout them out and I'll try to help you figure it out.

 

[KTMLew01]

Apparently the 212cc Ducar engine is a new candidate for Predator classes. DynoCams is a retailer, and they have a rulebook for it on their website at https://www.dynocams.com/catalog/documents/212-RULES.pdf.

In my experience DynoCams is a good company with good products. However, this new Ducar engine is yet another typical step in the "progress" of kart engines that keeps driving the cost of karting too high and hurting it. Note that the Ducar engine costs almost twice as much as the Predator engines that it is competing against.

This looks like a repeat of what has been a failing trend in karting since at least the 1990s. Back in the 1990s, the 5 hp flathead Briggs & Stratton engine was very popular, but sanctioning bodies and tracks allowed more and more modifications - even in the "stock" classes - until a competitive "stock" engine (that started out costing around $150) cost $1200 and up. Tracks and eventually the sanctioning bodies noticed that car counts were dropping. Also about the same time, Honda developed an overhead valve engine for small equipment in response to new EPA rules. Soon there were copies of the Honda design being produced in China, and Harbor Freight was one of the retailers - called them "Predator". In general, the copycat engines were called "clones", and they were cheap. Karting adopted the clones, and vowed to write rules and police them so that they would not make the same costly mistake they'd made with the Briggs engines.

That didn't last very long. After 4 or 5 years we were back to $1200 and more built up clone engines. Some racing kart parts producers and suppliers started offering their own versions of the clones, which helped drive the prices up. This is why I'm skeptical about the Ducar engines.

The excuse for driving up the cost of the clone engines was "durability" and "safety" and "speed". Many times the excuses were self-serving. Yes racers always want more speed, but there are other ways of obtaining it without modifying the engine. To go along with more speed you usually get more r.p.m. The factory flywheels were unsafe at the r.p.m. that the modified engines were running, so safety dictated a new specially cast flywheel... of course, it cost at least twice as much as the factory flywheel... This is just one example of modifications leading to more and more cost. Another example: truly stock clone engines could race at least a whole season without more than oil changes, and I knew people who got multiple seasons out of them. Today's competitive clone engine needs to be rebuilt (at a cost of hundreds of dollars) about every 10 races (and some racers rebuild them more often than that). Yet kart tracks and sanctioning bodies wonder why car counts continue to go down, and tracks are closing...

Will the Ducar and its rules stop this insanity? I hope, but my experience indicates it won't. I do know that I ran my truly box stock Predators for five years without needing any maintenance beyond oil changes... and that I bought them for $99 each (with coupon)... At that low price I figured that if I hurt an engine I'd just toss it into the parts bin and bolt on another. At around $247 for the Ducar I might have the same luck, but I'd still be paying a lot more for an engine. If the Ducar is faster than a Predator, then racers who want to win will have to buy the Ducar... and climb aboard the rising cost spiral again...

Same old same old. Back in the late 70's everyone gave up on 4-strokes and went 2-stroke. Still the rich guys won. It all runs in about a 12 year cycle.

 

[gone]

Same old same old. Back in the late 70's everyone gave up on 4-strokes and went 2-stroke. Still the rich guys won. It all runs in about a 12 year cycle.

Was a bit different where I raced (WV, OH, PA then NC, VA, SC). Tracks I ran mostly followed WKA rules, but in different areas the tracks followed IKF or their own conglomerations. Where I was, up to the mid-1980s, around 90% ran 2-strokes. 4-strokes were few, although my brother did run them and I ran them a few times too. During the 1980s the 2-strokes got hard to get and expensive - they quit importing so many foreign engines, and West Bend (Chrysler) and McCulloch quit producing kart racing engines. I had to stop racing for a few years, and when I came back in the early 1990s everybody had switched to the Briggs flathead per the changed WKA rules. It was rare to see 2-strokes by then, and today I only ever see one on a vintage kart or in a motorcycle engine class. Instead of a 12 year cycle I've experienced the 2-strokes dying out. All of the "clone" and "Predator" engines popular today are still 4-strokes.

You're right that the rich guys won the most. But every dog has his day, including us low budget guys.