Lot's of talk on new manufacturers, but who?

LouieLouie

LouieLouie

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So this thread is total speculation and I have no proof of anything, other than there has been a lot of talk in the past year or so about bringing in a new manufacturer to the sport.

My question to all of you is, who will it be?

I have heard rumors that Audi is interested but that doesn't seem to make sense to me. They are more of a luxury brand.
That being said, I know Cadillac is working on quite a few racing projects, one being in IMSA with a new prototype. Also there are rumors that they are developing a mid engine car that looks like it would fit into the GT3 category. http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/06/the-mid-engined-cadillac-sports-car-theory-surfaces-again/
Still, I don't think NASCAR is where they want to put the Cadillac name.

The brands I think make sense would be Honda or Kia. Honda has a huge racing program and fits in with the Chevy/Toyota/Ford mix. Kia, I believe is a slightly lower tiered brand, but getting put into the mix with these other brands would be great exposure for them. I don't think Kia has much of a race program though.

The only other manufacturer I could think of would be Dodge, but I don't think they are all that interested at this point.

What do you guys and gals think?
 
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Having followed this process very closely 10 years ago, IMO NASCAR gets that a manufacturer who enters for a short period of time and leaves is a big negative for the series. The sanctioning body put Toyota through its paces when it wanted to enter at a time when the economy would have suggested that NASCAR would do anything to get them. Now that the economy is in recovery, I would think that NASCAR could afford to be even more difficult. All of this being said, anybody who comes in would have to do at least what Toyota did in terms of commitment. I see 0 manufacturers who would be willing to do that from scratch. A Dodge re-entry is as close to a possibility as anything out there IMO--I would not consider this probable.
 
I think instead of asking what manufacturers would be a good fit, the better question is which current sprint cup teams would be willing to switch to unproven equipment. Then there's the problem of engines. If the new manufacturer is willing to go in with a big investment and build engines and chassis themselves ala TRD, then that makes it easy as a team just has to modify chassis as they already had been doing. If not, then it's a tough ask to have a team start a new engine program or else convince someone to switch designs.

If the former scenario, that limits the pool of auto makers to those with deep pockets, a strong US engineering presence and a commitment to racing.

If the latter scenario, then it rules out the big three engine makers with longstanding strong ties to their manufacturers and any team downstream who gets their equipment. TRD, Roush, and Hendrick aren't switching, ever, and so no team that uses those engines will switch. That leaves Triad and Childress.
 
LouieLouie said:
To add another wrinkle to all of this, it looks like the Chevy SS is on the way out.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/03/new-life-replacement-for-chevrolet-ss-may-be-on-the-horizon/

It appears Holden will no longer be making their version of the SS after 2017.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/02...l-send-off-edition-of-vf-commodore-series-ii/

Again, these are all rumors but these things tend to move toward fact as time goes on.
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That's been known for awhile. GM announced they'd be shutting Holden down sometime last year, which started the speculation the fate of the SS (a rebadged Commodore VF). Honestly, I'm not 100% sure a V-8, rear-wheel-drive sedan ever made sense for the consumer market circa 2016 anyway, even if it does cut a cool look. (it's the only Gen-6 car that hasn't gotten a makeover thus far, although I'd argue that speaks to how poorly designed and butt ugly the original Gen-6 Camry and Fusion bumpers were)
 
I think we'll see the Malibu replace the SS, but as far as new manufacturers, I think Nissan would be the best fit. Plus, other than FCA (who I don't see coming back in), they're the only other manufacturer that has a full-size truck they could run in NCWTS.
 
Acs said:
TRD, Roush, and Hendrick aren't switching, ever, and so no team that uses those engines will switch.
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I agree that the main 3 engine manufacturers are not going to change alliances, but the other teams I'm not so sure about. Look at what happened at SHR and FRR. Here's a real piece of speculation, what if moving to Ford is really a lie and they are moving to the new manufacturer? (Talk about conspiracy theory! LOL).

Anyway, I agree, getting a new manufacturer into the series will not be easy and finding the right team to work with will be even more challenging, but I think if a manufacturer wants to get in, they will find the money to spend.
 
ToyYoda said:
I think we'll see the Malibu replace the SS, but as far as new manufacturers, I think Nissan would be the best fit. Plus, other than FCA (who I don't see coming back in), they're the only other manufacturer that has a full-size truck they could run in NCWTS.
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Good call, I forgot about them. They have the new Titan out too which they might want to promote, and the Maxima fits in at the cup level.

Also agree that the Malibu will replace the SS. I have read that they plan to make the Malibu bigger than it is now, almost as big as the impala.
 
Acs said:
I think instead of asking what manufacturers would be a good fit, the better question is which current sprint cup teams would be willing to switch to unproven equipment. Then there's the problem of engines. If the new manufacturer is willing to go in with a big investment and build engines and chassis themselves ala TRD, then that makes it easy as a team just has to modify chassis as they already had been doing. If not, then it's a tough ask to have a team start a new engine program or else convince someone to switch designs.

If the former scenario, that limits the pool of auto makers to those with deep pockets, a strong US engineering presence and a commitment to racing.

If the latter scenario, then it rules out the big three engine makers with longstanding strong ties to their manufacturers and any team downstream who gets their equipment. TRD, Roush, and Hendrick aren't switching, ever, and so no team that uses those engines will switch. That leaves Triad and Childress.
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Well said....and important to remember that Toyota came with a huge investment in new/unproven teams. A new manufacturer would have to be all in, and take their lumps IMO.
 
LouieLouie said:
I agree that the main 3 engine manufacturers are not going to change alliances, but the other teams I'm not so sure about. Look at what happened at SHR and FRR. Here's a real piece of speculation, what if moving to Ford is really a lie and they are moving to the new manufacturer? (Talk about conspiracy theory! LOL).

Anyway, I agree, getting a new manufacturer into the series will not be easy and finding the right team to work with will be even more challenging, but I think if a manufacturer wants to get in, they will find the money to spend.
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What would Ford gain in playing along?
 
kkfan91 said:
What would Ford gain in playing along?
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That's a good point, after all Bill Davis had to run his Cup cars w/ no support from Dodge for three years after he launched his Truck team with Toyota.
 
Ok so going back to my two scenarios, top down and bottom up, I'd say it's pretty likely to happen in the near future one way or the other given the increased chatter we've heard about it from the sport. NASCAR is fixing it's poor racing problem, has a long-term TV deal, has a 5 year schedule agreement, and will have a title sponsor locked down by the end of the year. That leaves 2017 as the year to focus on getting another manufacturer. Here are my candidates:

Nissan- They are big enough to afford the spend, they have a significant enough US engineering and manufacturing base, and they spend money on racing albeit outside the US. In fact, they make a V8 racing engine already (not a pushrod though) and have recently committed to the V8 supercars series long-term using that engine, even though they now have the option of making a turbo V6 which is more in their wheelhouse. There's just one big problem; Carlos Ghosn hates US racing and won't let the US division spend much of anything. If they did join it would have to be like TRD, top down with big spending and that likely won't happen under current leadership.

Dodge- When they last made a run at NASCAR it was bottom up. Get Penske to make the motors and sell them to a few other teams. Stick a charger/ram badge on it and boom, you're in the sport for little to no money. That's exactly why they left, though. Not enough commitment to spend the big bucks supporting multiple top level teams and so one by one they left for Ford, Chevy or Toyota who were. Then with nobody to do the hard work of building engines plus the financial collapse and a new CEO who again hates US racing, they are out. I don't think they would be stupid enough to try that approach again and I don't see them willing to spend big bucks on motor racing period. Not happening.

Volkswagen - This one is interesting. Apparently this guy had it on good authority that Volkswagen was inches away from entering the sport in 2013. http://www.motorsport.com/nascar-cup/news/the-next-manufacturer-to-join-nascar-is/ They have the size, they spend on motorsports, they have an OK US presence and apparently NASCAR was able to agree to most of their demands on the spot. Their US sales are horrible for their size and need a boost badly. They just needed a good team to field their cars. I would have thought them even more likely to join now, being desperate for good press after dieselgate. Then the charter system happened and that killed any realistic chance of an Andretti coming into the sport easily with multiple cars. Now the dieselgate penalties were announced... $15 billion. That's not chump change even for VW, and they are talking of cutting German factory workers to make it up. Jumping into NASCAR now would be political suicide.
 
Regardless of how it happens, they'd need an established team, or for an established team to go defunct, thanks to the charter system. Otherwise, they'd be stuck fighting for four spots every week, and up against any Chevy, Ford and Toyota teams already in the open ranks.
 
Pontiac.




I wish. :(

I think Nissan is the only manufacturer that makes sense. It would be cool if Dodge would come back, but I don't think that's going to happen.

I don't care who comes in, as long as nobody else leaves. Four manufacturers would be perfect.
 
Roman Nodonyet said:
Regardless of how it happens, they'd need an established team, or for an established team to go defunct, thanks to the charter system. Otherwise, they'd be stuck fighting for four spots every week, and up against any Chevy, Ford and Toyota teams already in the open ranks.
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Right, and that's why Dodge is in the catbird seat. They could get Penske Petty and maybe a few others to switch immediately IF they came back like TRD and built their own engines. They are a known commodity while Nissan, VW and others are not. Otherwise they are right where they are now, nobody is willing to start up a dodge engine program again.
 
Acs said:
Right, and that's why Dodge is in the catbird seat. They could get Penske Petty and maybe a few others to switch immediately IF they came back like TRD and built their own engines.
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Right.

When is Harvick leaving Ford?
 
Acs said:
Ok so going back to my two scenarios, top down and bottom up, I'd say it's pretty likely to happen in the near future one way or the other given the increased chatter we've heard about it from the sport. NASCAR is fixing it's poor racing problem, has a long-term TV deal, has a 5 year schedule agreement, and will have a title sponsor locked down by the end of the year. That leaves 2017 as the year to focus on getting another manufacturer. Here are my candidates:
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Good post. I hope you are right about "pretty likely to happen." IMO what it takes is: (a) a marketing incentive or need that Nascar can satisfy, (b) money to invest, and (c) commitment for the long haul.

Nascar chassis and engines are based on stone age architecture, with things like large displacement push rod engines and solid rear axles, etc. This makes for awesome racing at reasonable cost, but it does limit the scope of marketing benefits. If an auto manufacturer wants to tout it's engineering prowess and advanced technology, Nascar is not what it wants. And that has generally been Honda's motive for it's racing programs.

Toyota's marketing objective was to associate the Toyota brand with Americana, which would help to overcome "anti-foreign" buying objections, according to several retrospective pieces I have read. Might Kia have a story like that to get out there...?

Regarding engines, I don't see a big problem. There are plenty of companies that could help a new manufacturer get an engine program going, such as Cosworth or Ilmor or others. And Hendrick and Roush-Yates are really engine assemblers more than engine manufacturers, I believe. Don't Chevrolet and Ford have the lead role in design and engineering them? Where are the blocks and heads cast?
 
Chevrolet blocks are cast in Shropshire, England. GM design / CFD / FEA work. Cylinder heads are domesticcally cast.

Ford and Toyota blocks are cast in Brazil by the same company that does the GM work in England..
 
LouieLouie said:
So this thread is total speculation and I have no proof of anything, other than there has been a lot of talk in the past year or so about bringing in a new manufacturer to the sport. ...
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Who exactly has been doing this talking? Any actual names, or just the usual unattributed 'them' again?
 
I don't remember a year when there wasn't talk about new manufacturers set to come into the sport . My thought is , it may motivate the remaining three to stay in the sport , it may not , but nobody new is coming .
 
LewTheShoe said:
Toyota's marketing objective was to associate the Toyota brand with Americana, which would help to overcome "anti-foreign" buying objections, according to several retrospective pieces I have read.
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I agree, and Toyota spent several years in Trucks analyzing the American response to their participation. They were obsessed with this thing not backfiring on them. There is still big concern in this area, and Toyota has studied the impact of Kyle's Championship in addition to Denny's 500 win.

In reference to Honda.....Honda is a racing company that builds passenger cars. Toyota is a passenger car company that went racing. This would explain why Honda might shy away from low tech while Toyota embraces it....kind of....TRD is an engineering company. So, IMO Toyota has approached this low tech thing from more of an engineering perspective--if that makes any sense.
 
I don't see Dodge coming back or teams like Penske or maybe even Petty signing up with them. Dodge I think kind of stunk it up when they came in and then got out. Penske probably would be a fool to hook up since they are well established. Petty might because he is still a 2nd tier team and would want to get back with major backing. Nissan and Honda I could see coming in and maybe Kia. Considering that many still have heartburn for having Toyota in Nascar I could see a lot negative with Nascar allowing the others.
 
Volkswagen is in such trouble with their diesel program there is speculation they could just about go broke, so spending any money here is doubtful.
 
Nissan isn't even running TV ads for the new Titan, so I don't see them committing to the truck series and beyond.

I've said it here before and I'll say it again: It's Kia. There's a whole restructuring happening with parent company Hyundai where Hyundai and their new Genesis sub-brand are going up-market and higher priced and Kia is now identified as the Ford/Chevy/Toyota competitor. They need to ingrain the Kia name into American mainstream culture more just like what Toyota used the sport for. They want to become a volume player on par in sales with these guys, and what better way to rub elbows with your peers?
 
LewTheShoe said:
What? That is not even close to correct. Honda does have a long and rich racing heritage, but it does not define the company and never has.
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Some respected bike people produced several TV documentaries chronicling the history of the racing and production motorcycles manufactured by Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Ducati and others.

According to them, Soichiro Honda was a racer first and went into production of street bikes to support that habit. Cars came later. Perhaps Rev is referencing that.
 
Soichiro Honda was certainly passionate about racing, and particularly about the engineering challenges that it offered. Honda's grand prix motorcycle team launched ~1960, I believe, and by that time Honda had been a large volume producer of motorcycles for quite some time. Yes, the cars came later, but the street bikes came long before the racing bikes. More importantly, Honda was never a race team that sold some products to finance the racing. That was not their business plan. Racing has always been a small, though elite, corner of that company.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Who exactly has been doing this talking? Any actual names, or just the usual unattributed 'them' again?
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There were a couple articles on Jayski that had Brian France addressing the question, and then today I saw an interview with Brad K on racehub talking about it. http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/racehub?vid=709967427645

Also if you head over there, check out the radioactive video from sonoma. Pretty good.

Great conversation and analysis here everyone. Very interesting. I never even thought about VW but that makes sense since Audi has a big presence in IMSA. I also think Chip Gnassi is ripe for a manufacturer change. He has a solid race team, and I think Chevy is lowering their level of funding and support for all teams across all racing series.
 
Gm, Ford and Toyota all have around 14-15% market share in the U.S. Count Chrysler in and they hold roughly 60% of American auto sales. This relevance is to how much capital in marketing a company like Honda, Nissan or anyone else would have to be able to spend to compete with these big 3 in the sport. To me NASCAR is too expensive right now for any other company to be able to compete. Not Gonna Happen...soon atleast. As far as worldwide $$$ goes then obviously WV/AudI would have the cash
 
Fordracing7 said:
Gm, Ford and Toyota all have around 14-15% market share in the U.S. Count Chrysler in and they hold roughly 60% of American auto sales. This relevance is to how much capital in marketing a company like Honda, Nissan or anyone else would have to be able to spend to compete with these big 3 in the sport. To me NASCAR is too expensive right now for any other company to be able to compete. Not Gonna Happen...soon atleast. As far as worldwide $$$ goes then obviously WV/AudI would have the cash
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Year to date May, here's the top 10:

1. GM - 16.6%
2. Ford - 15.5%
3. Toyota - 14.0%
4. Chrysler - 13.2%
5. Nissan - 9.2%
6. Honda - 9.2% (Nissan has slightly higher sales)
7. Hyundai - 4.3%
8. Kia - 3.7%
9. Subaru - 3.3%
10. Mercedes-Benz - 2.1%
 
I think hell would have to freeze over first before FCA comes back to NASCAR.
 
aunty dive said:
According to them, Soichiro Honda was a racer first and went into production of street bikes to support that habit. Cars came later. Perhaps Rev is referencing that.
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This. Racing is at the heart of Honda....IMO that makes them different from Toyota for example. Thank you Aunty.
 
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