Manufacturer loyalty...

Formerjackman

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I am probably just as loyal to GM as Revman is to Toyota, but I'm not myopic about it, in fact it's quite the love-hate relationship, like Cowboys fans that hate Jerry Jones or Redskins fans (cough cough) that despise Daniel Snyder. I think since the late 70's GM has been one of the most consistently poorly runs major corporations there is, I think that at least half the time their car designers are under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs, and they seem to never be able to figure out exactly who they are and what the want to be. I also wouldn't wiz on Mary Barra if she was on fire, but they're still MY team. through the good and the bad.........
 

Revman

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So you would rather have less options on the market for customers to choose from, as opposed to having more options to choose from if some of those options are collaborative efforts?
Yes, absolutely. You could hand me a Supra, and I would sell it for a Camry.
 

cheesepuffs

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Yes, absolutely. You could hand me a Supra, and I would sell it for a Camry.
I used to be like you but with Ford, and then a light bulb went off and I realized that Ford is an international company that does not give a **** about me and doesn't deserve my devotion because every car company makes some good products and some bad products and these companies should be pandering to you, the customer, because you're the one with the money they're after, instead of it being the other way around.
 

StandOnIt

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I used to be like you but with Ford, and then a light bulb went off and I realized that Ford is an international company that does not give a **** about me and doesn't deserve my devotion because every car company makes some good products and some bad products and these companies should be pandering to you, the customer, because you're the one with the money they're after, instead of it being the other way around.
If you ever had a Ford P.U. that spit out spark plugs like popcorn and Ford wouldn't do anything about it. :mad: Toyota P.U.'s had a frame that was a rust bucket and most of the time they sprayed some undercoating on top of the rust and called it good. None of them give a **** IMO.
 

cheesepuffs

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But see, just because others would have said choice, doesn’t mean you have to get them. So why shouldn’t others have the choice?
Exactly. Not to mention, more cars on the market means more competition which means we, the customers, end up winning because these companies are forced to keep putting out better and better products to one-up each other.
 

jaqua19

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Thanks for asking. When it came time for me to buy my first car, it had to be reliable...didn't have much money. I bought a base Tercel. I simply could not afford that thing to crap out on me, and it never did. I am an "all in" guy with whatever I do. So, I needed a place to express my passion for the brad...enter racing. From that point on, it's about building relationships. I have never been to another dealer other than my local one. I only pay sticker--I want my salesman to thrive...and if I can't afford sticker, I pick a model that I can. So, when it comes time for service (I am religious about it), or repair (rarely), guess what? I get breaks. Why? Because they know I won't go anywhere else. More loyalty. Moe passion. When I buy, and insist on sticker, guess what? All of a sudden, I start getting money coming back to me. Fees here and there that are rebated during the buying process. On my last purchase, I literally got $5000 back with what I would consider "made up" waiving of fees, etc. to reward my loyalty. They know where I am coming for my next car. So, I am one of these weird dudes who recognizes the symbiotic relationship between what happens on the dealership lot and the expression of that experience on Sundays, and visa versa. Some buy into it, so don't. I do. I get the stock car thing long after the traditional stock car thing was a thing. I don't need much to feel the connectedness...real or made up...who cares? I feel it, and I think it is what the sanctioning body hopes to recapture with the Next Gen.
Hmm, Rev can I ask how old you are?

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Revman

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But see, just because others would have said choice, doesn’t mean you have to get them. So why shouldn’t others have the choice?
I think a manufacturer should manufacturer their own stuff....that's what makes a manufacturer what a manufacturer is. Does that make sense?
 

Blaze

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I think a manufacturer should manufacturer their own stuff....that's what makes a manufacturer what a manufacturer is. Does that make sense?
makes sense sure. But it others like it, I don’t see why it’s a problem. Everyone is happy that way. You could buy what you want, others what they want. It’s a good thing.
 

ChexOrWrex

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Thanks for asking. When it came time for me to buy my first car, it had to be reliable...didn't have much money. I bought a base Tercel. I simply could not afford that thing to crap out on me, and it never did. I am an "all in" guy with whatever I do. So, I needed a place to express my passion for the brad...enter racing. From that point on, it's about building relationships. I have never been to another dealer other than my local one. I only pay sticker--I want my salesman to thrive...and if I can't afford sticker, I pick a model that I can. So, when it comes time for service (I am religious about it), or repair (rarely), guess what? I get breaks. Why? Because they know I won't go anywhere else. More loyalty. Moe passion. When I buy, and insist on sticker, guess what? All of a sudden, I start getting money coming back to me. Fees here and there that are rebated during the buying process. On my last purchase, I literally got $5000 back with what I would consider "made up" waiving of fees, etc. to reward my loyalty. They know where I am coming for my next car. So, I am one of these weird dudes who recognizes the symbiotic relationship between what happens on the dealership lot and the expression of that experience on Sundays, and visa versa. Some buy into it, so don't. I do. I get the stock car thing long after the traditional stock car thing was a thing. I don't need much to feel the connectedness...real or made up...who cares? I feel it, and I think it is what the sanctioning body hopes to recapture with the Next Gen.
Bruh, your ignorance of how manufacturer rebates are set up with holdback make you a salesperson’s dream. You’re getting financially raped with a smile on your face.
 

Revman

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Bruh, your ignorance of how manufacturer rebates are set up with holdback make you a salesperson’s dream. You’re getting financially raped with a smile on your face.
I don't give a ****...bruh...I can afford it. I get the Toyota. You can have the barstool talk about how you called the salesperson his their ****.
 

Revman

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I'm not knocking you for it. I love seeing that much passion in a fan for anything racing related. :)
Oh I don't feel that at all man, and thank you for appreciating my fandom. I truly love this stuff man. I really do.
 

Ford 222

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I used to be like you but with Ford, and then a light bulb went off and I realized that Ford is an international company that does not give a **** about me and doesn't deserve my devotion because every car company makes some good products and some bad products and these companies should be pandering to you, the customer, because you're the one with the money they're after, instead of it being the other way around.
Same here. I still prefer Ford products and like to see them do good in competitions, always gives me a team to root for when I watch something not NASCAR. If they don't have a team, I defer to the domestic makes.

But right now I'm not above ANY brand for a purchase. But I have to get one HELL of a deal on something on the high end foreign side since we have no dealerships in the area. Closest would be Pittsburg or Charleston WV. We did get a Lexus out of Pittsburgh once and it was an awesome car but our local Toyota dealer would not work on it above general maintenance. Pain in the ass.

My neighbor has bought a couple used lease BMWs from Rahal in Pitts and says they bend over backwards to help you service and give better warranty's on them than the new ones?
 

Ford 222

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Exactly. Not to mention, more cars on the market means more competition which means we, the customers, end up winning because these companies are forced to keep putting out better and better products to one-up each other.
We are never winners. Basically giving them your used car unless you own it outright. Warranties are a joke. Anxious to see how Toyota gets out of fixing the wheel bearing that I think is going bad at 50k on my Tacoma. I got the premium extended warranty that's supposed to go to 100k since I drive everywhere for work. I'm sure it will cost me something or they will say its fine hoping it doesn't lock up or fall apart before the 100k.
 

Ford 222

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If you ever had a Ford P.U. that spit out spark plugs like popcorn and Ford wouldn't do anything about it. :mad: Toyota P.U.'s had a frame that was a rust bucket and most of the time they sprayed some undercoating on top of the rust and called it good. None of them give a **** IMO.
I hate to defend Toyota but if the rusting frame you are talking about was the Tacomas in the early 2000's, didn't they recall them and give people a HELL of a deal towards a new Tacoma? Or at least towards a trade for somethin on their lots (new or used)?
 

StandOnIt

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I hate to defend Toyota but if the rusting frame you are talking about was the Tacomas in the early 2000's, didn't they recall them and give people a HELL of a deal towards a new Tacoma? Or at least towards a trade for somethin on their lots (new or used)?
2011 -2017

Description
Toyota has received reports regarding frame corrosion perforation on 2011 – 2017 model year Tacoma vehicles. In these reports, customers have indicated that vehicles operated in specific cold climate areas with high road salt usage may exhibit more-than-normal corrosion to the vehicle’s frame. This condition is unrelated to and separate from normal surface rust which is commonly found on metallic surfaces after some years of usage and/or exposure to the environment.

Remedy
Any authorized Toyota dealer in the Cold Climate States (CCS) will first inspect the condition of the vehicle’s frame under associated Customer Support Program (CSP) ZKA. Based upon the results and date of the inspection, the dealership will do one of the following: If qualifying rust perforation is not found, and the vehicle is located in a Cold Climate State, the dealer will apply Corrosion Resistant Compound (CRC) and/or install frame plugs to key areas of the vehicle’s frame FREE OF CHARGE to the owner under Limited Service Campaign (LSC) K0D. If qualifying rust perforation is not found, and the vehicle is not located in a Cold Climate State, no further action is required. If significant rust perforation is found, the dealer will replace the vehicle’s frame FREE OF CHARGE to the owner under Customer Support Program ZKA if all conditions of the program are met.
 

cheesepuffs

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I think a manufacturer should manufacturer their own stuff....that's what makes a manufacturer what a manufacturer is. Does that make sense?
No, it doesn't, because that's not how it works. Toyota doesn't manufacture everything that goes into any of their vehicles. Every automaker leans on suppliers in the industry. Toyota has ownership in Denso for example which is one of the biggest suppliers, but not everything in your Toyota is made by Denso. There's Delphi, Bosch, Magneti-Marelli, ZF, Aisin, and more. And they all have contracts with all different automakers.

The connecting rods in your Toyota engine for example aren't "Toyota" connecting rods. Toyota isn't in the business of manufacturering powdered metal and then converting that powdered metal into castings. They contract it out. Now think of that but for every part of the car and basically all they probably form the unibodies and then assemble the whole thing like a lego set.

Many times, for another example, tons of cars on the road will use the exact same transmission. Like for instance the ZF 8-speed was used by both BMW and Chrysler, because that transmission met both of their needs.
 

StandOnIt

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No, it doesn't, because that's not how it works. Toyota doesn't manufacture everything that goes into any of their vehicles. Every automaker leans on suppliers in the industry. Toyota has ownership in Denso for example which is one of the biggest suppliers, but not everything in your Toyota is made by Denso. There's Delphi, Bosch, Magneti-Marelli, ZF, Aisin, and more. And they all have contracts with all different automakers.

The connecting rods in your Toyota engine for example aren't "Toyota" connecting rods. Toyota isn't in the business of manufacturering powdered metal and then converting that powdered metal into castings. They contract it out. Now think of that but for every part of the car and basically all they probably form the unibodies and then assemble the whole thing like a lego set.

Many times, for another example, tons of cars on the road will use the exact same transmission. Like for instance the ZF 8-speed was used by both BMW and Chrysler, because that transmission met both of their needs.
I took the alternator from my Ford tractor to the dealer and they wanted 250 bucks for another one. I went to Shorties Electric to see about rebuilding it. He looked at it and said I have one already rebuilt. 80 bucks it came from a Toyota. :idunno:
 

cheesepuffs

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I'll go one further with a NASCAR focused example. TRD engines. When Toyota was first entering the sport, what did they do because they didn't have any existing pushrod V8s? They got Bill Davis to sell them the drawings of the Dodge engines that Bill Davis Racing was running. Dodge found out and was not happy. That's why the Bill Davis cars in the last year as "Dodge" don't have any Dodge logos on the nose. Dodge pulled their factory support of the team. And then those early "Toyota" NASCAR engines happened to have the exact same bore and stroke as the Dodge engines... Toyota didn't even design their own first motor for this sport, they stole one from somebody else and changed it up a little like copying somebody else's homework. And in NASCAR all the engine builders have suppliers for those parts like pistons and bearings and such too. Those parts aren't "TRD" or "Ford" parts.
 

cheesepuffs

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I took the alternator from my Ford tractor to the dealer and they wanted 250 bucks for another one. I went to Shorties Electric to see about rebuilding it. He looked at it and said I have one already rebuilt. 80 bucks it came from a Toyota. :idunno:
Exactly. Only so many companies make certain parts, from batteries to wheel bearings. A lot of is the same parts or at least just different part numbers from the same catalogue. What happens is Toyota or whoever needs an alternator that meets certain specs, and so they shop around the suppliers who then quote Toyota for an existing alternator they make that will meet those requirements. They don't design a brand new unique alternator everytime the Camry or the F-150 gets a fresh bodystyle.
 

ChexOrWrex

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I'll go one further with a NASCAR focused example. TRD engines. When Toyota was first entering the sport, what did they do because they didn't have any existing pushrod V8s? They got Bill Davis to sell them the drawings of the Dodge engines that Bill Davis Racing was running. Dodge found out and was not happy. That's why the Bill Davis cars in the last year as "Dodge" don't have any Dodge logos on the nose. Dodge pulled their factory support of the team. And then those early "Toyota" NASCAR engines happened to have the exact same bore and stroke as the Dodge engines... Toyota didn't even design their own first motor for this sport, they stole one from somebody else and changed it up a little like copying somebody else's homework. And in NASCAR all the engine builders have suppliers for those parts like pistons and bearings and such too. Those parts aren't "TRD" or "Ford" parts.

 

Truex_rox

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Hmm, all of this talk about manufacturers and one's devotion to them seems to have sprung up again, so I'll offer my input.

I don't speak on it a lot, but I'm a big Chevy guy. Truex is the only driver that I root for outside of HMS and Kurt Busch. In my experience, Chevy has been reliable and they've always been one of my favorites regardless of the discipline they're participating in. It is nice to see them experiencing a strong resurgence on the track. They are the source of the only car that I've had in my possession from the moment I got the privilege of driving. My uncle also happens to be a big NASCAR fan, and what do you know, he also has gone through one generation of Chevy's to the next. Guess you could say he never steered me wrong! So, it feels only natural to root for them. On top of that, I think I can say I am akin to @Revman on the loyalty to one manufacturer, and paying attention to how the manufacturer does as a whole. I've been paying attention from the start of the year, hoping it would be better than what we've seen out of them for a little while. It was really tight between all three manufacturers to begin with since it seemed like there were a select few drivers from each one that represented them well while the rest faltered. Now, I knew the improvements were coming for Chevrolet - after all, they are NASCAR's equivalent to F1's Ferrari - but I wasn't expecting the young HMS quartet to come out swinging like this... it is wonderful to see! Bowman may be bringing up the rear of the group, but he's came through clutch like another guy that used to wheel the 48, so I'm not too worried about him or his status in the team. Byron has completely turned around the narrative ever since his reunion with his old crew chief and proven that he is not a bust. Chase and the 9 team must not have ever heard of a championship hangover, because they've been at the sharp end every race recently. Larson is finally coming into his own. I think part of the reason we saw him give so many races away with CGR was how hard he was pushing the equipment. Most everyone knew the talent was there from day one. It was a matter of reeling it in, closing out races and having the tools at hand to do so. I think we're beginning to see the Kyle Larson that so many fans and members of the media were propping up, labelling him to be the next greatest thing a few years ago. I don't think anyone was ever wrong about that. Since I spoke of CGR, it's been disappointing to see them struggle like they have. Ross and Kurt looked to be a strong lineup. Not saying that they are the reason, or at least entirely. I was reading about how a rep for HMS was apologizing to them for their reliability issues, so I know that much. It seems they have slipped to becoming the third-tier Chevy team behind RCR. Austin Dillon has met a competitive team-mate in Tyler Reddick. I think his presence in the team has pushed Austin, and the two are pretty close on track every week in spite of the age and experience gap. Reddick might be the next new winner this year, unless CGR starts getting it back together.
 

ToyYoda

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I think a manufacturer should manufacturer their own stuff....that's what makes a manufacturer what a manufacturer is. Does that make sense?
Hey Rev, just wanted to ask a question out of curiosity...I know you said you don’t like the Supra (rebadged BMW) and 86 (rebadged Subaru) and I assume the last Gen Yaris (rebadged Mazda)....did you ever consider cars like the Geo Prizm or Pontiac Vibe when they were being built since they were essentially rebadged Toyota’s?
 

Ford 222

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Thread went a little off the rails from my intent. Question was, do any of us think a DRIVER has any allegiance to a MFG like they infer they do?
 

2 Sweet

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Thread went a little off the rails from my intent. Question was, do any of us think a DRIVER has any allegiance to a MFG like they infer they do?

I think some/most do to varying extents, but certainly not enough to overrule a wise business decision. But all things equal, yeah, I think preference/loyalty matters.
 

Revman

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No, it doesn't, because that's not how it works. Toyota doesn't manufacture everything that goes into any of their vehicles. Every automaker leans on suppliers in the industry. Toyota has ownership in Denso for example which is one of the biggest suppliers, but not everything in your Toyota is made by Denso. There's Delphi, Bosch, Magneti-Marelli, ZF, Aisin, and more. And they all have contracts with all different automakers.

The connecting rods in your Toyota engine for example aren't "Toyota" connecting rods. Toyota isn't in the business of manufacturering powdered metal and then converting that powdered metal into castings. They contract it out. Now think of that but for every part of the car and basically all they probably form the unibodies and then assemble the whole thing like a lego set.

Many times, for another example, tons of cars on the road will use the exact same transmission. Like for instance the ZF 8-speed was used by both BMW and Chrysler, because that transmission met both of their needs.
There is a difference between specific parts, etc. and the whole damn car being rebadged.
 

Revman

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Hey Rev, just wanted to ask a question out of curiosity...I know you said you don’t like the Supra (rebadged BMW) and 86 (rebadged Subaru) and I assume the last Gen Yaris (rebadged Mazda)....did you ever consider cars like the Geo Prizm or Pontiac Vibe when they were being built since they were essentially rebadged Toyota’s?
Thanks for asking. Honestly, if I had wanted a Prize, I would have gotten the Corolla, and I did own a Matrix XRS so it would be a pass on the Vibe as well. Did it bother me that they were rebadged Toyotas? Yeah. My feeling was get the Toyota.
 

Speedbowl14

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Thread went a little off the rails from my intent. Question was, do any of us think a DRIVER has any allegiance to a MFG like they infer they do?


Sure they do. Tony like GM better so when Gibbs went to Toyota he tried it out, didn't like it, and left to form SHR. Another 10 years goes by, things change, now they're with Ford.

It's clear that the manufacturers call the shots on where the top drivers go. Ky Bu drives Toyota's. Chese Elliot Chevrolets. Doesn't matter where they race, even if it's far from the Sup series.
 

Revman

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I'll go one further with a NASCAR focused example. TRD engines. When Toyota was first entering the sport, what did they do because they didn't have any existing pushrod V8s? They got Bill Davis to sell them the drawings of the Dodge engines that Bill Davis Racing was running. Dodge found out and was not happy. That's why the Bill Davis cars in the last year as "Dodge" don't have any Dodge logos on the nose. Dodge pulled their factory support of the team. And then those early "Toyota" NASCAR engines happened to have the exact same bore and stroke as the Dodge engines... Toyota didn't even design their own first motor for this sport, they stole one from somebody else and changed it up a little like copying somebody else's homework. And in NASCAR all the engine builders have suppliers for those parts like pistons and bearings and such too. Those parts aren't "TRD" or "Ford" parts.
Nice spin. 1) While the hell would Bill Davis "sell" drawings to the company that was going to build his engines? Yeah, that doesn't make sense. Wouldn't he just give these "drawings" to his future manufacturer? 2) Is it stealing when the sanctioning body encourages you to do it? https://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2004-02/toyota-crashes-nascar-party/ ....No, probably not....and how many Toyota motors were rejected? When the design box is small, everybody ends up pretty close. Am I right? NASCAR would not let Toyota get too far out there. Do you remember what Mr. France told Jim Aust and Lee White? "You are all allowed to come. You are all allowed to compete. You are all allowed to win....but only by this much (one inch between thumb and forefinger).
 

cheesepuffs

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Thread went a little off the rails from my intent. Question was, do any of us think a DRIVER has any allegiance to a MFG like they infer they do?
No
Nice spin. 1) While the hell would Bill Davis "sell" drawings to the company that was going to build his engines? Yeah, that doesn't make sense. Wouldn't he just give these "drawings" to his future manufacturer? 2) Is it stealing when the sanctioning body encourages you to do it? https://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2004-02/toyota-crashes-nascar-party/ ....No, probably not....and how many Toyota motors were rejected? When the design box is small, everybody ends up pretty close. Am I right? NASCAR would not let Toyota get too far out there. Do you remember what Mr. France told Jim Aust and Lee White? "You are all allowed to come. You are all allowed to compete. You are all allowed to win....but only by this much (one inch between thumb and forefinger).
Bill Davis was sued over leaking trade secrets.
https://casetext.com/case/daimlerchrysler-motors-v-bill-davis-racing

You know Triad engines? That used to be the BDR engine shop. Bill Davis sold his Toyota engine building operation to Triad.
 

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