NASCAR drops the hammer on Hamlin

Matthew2470 said:
@MartySmithESPN: I can't understand how y'all don't see the detriment of this penalty to the 11 team. Crew chiefs sort of matter. As do reputations.
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Trophies arent handed out based on repuations. What a maroon.

Johali said:
What's so hard to understand about the 11 car being cheated up way beyond the grey area and common sense? It was dangerous to the driver and gave the 11 car a big aero advantage. They got caught and penalized. End of story.
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And still lost
 
Hamlin is getting off far to easy. At the very least he should be banned from the sport for the remainder of the season and all of JGR's drivers should be banned from the Chase. That will send a message.
 
Overreacticvefan said:
Hamlin is getting off far to easy. At the very least he should be banned from the sport for the remainder of the season and all of JGR's drivers should be banned from the Chase. That will send a message.
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Your reply suits your name.

Although I dont know what "reacticve" is.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
It'd be interesting if through the appeals process the penalty is increased. :eek:
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Has that ever happened?

And a note to all who have their panties in a wad over the penalty --- I don't think we know all the particulars. Maybe more will come out through the appeal process.
So before you get the lynch mob together and grab some rope, give it some time.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
It'd be interesting if through the appeals process the penalty is increased. :eek:
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TexasRaceLady said:
Has that ever happened?

And a note to all who have their panties in a wad over the penalty --- I don't think we know all the particulars. Maybe more will come out through the appeal process.
So before you get the lynch mob together and grab some rope, give it some time.
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I'm not sure if it has happened, but it can happen.
 
TexasRaceLady said:
Has that ever happened?

And a note to all who have their panties in a wad over the penalty --- I don't think we know all the particulars. Maybe more will come out through the appeal process.
So before you get the lynch mob together and grab some rope, give it some time.
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AndyMarquisLive said:
I'm not sure if it has happened, but it can happen.
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According to the numbers provided by NASCAR, in 152 appeals heard since November 1999 107 were upheld, 32 were reduced, 11 were overturned and in two cases the penalties were increased.
 
What's next?

Now that Joe Gibbs Racing intends to appeal NASCAR’s penalties to Denny Hamlin and his team for violations discovered after last weekend’s Brickyard 400 what happens next?

Here’s what can be expected.

The team has 10 calendar days from when the penalty was issued to pay a $500 fee and send written notice for appeal to NASCAR’s Appeals Administrator. Once that is done, a hearing date will be set for Joe Gibbs Racing to contest the 75-point penalty to Hamlin, six-race suspension to crew chief Darian Grubb, $125,000 fine to Grubb and other penalties after NASCAR discovered issues with “several rear firewall block-off plates” on Hamlin’s third-place car.

The Appeals Administrator - George Silbermann - will select three people to be on the National Motorsports Appeals Panel from a list of 34 individuals. Among the considerations will be a person’s availability, background, professional experience and knowledge.

The list of 34 includes track operators, former drivers, former mechanics, former owners, others who have been involved motorsports, and/or the automotive industry and drug-testing experts.

Because Hamlin’s case involves technical issues, someone such as Robert Yates, a former car owner, could be placed on the panel as well as Buddy Parrott, a former crew chief.

Former drivers who could be asked to join the panel are Johnny Benson, Janet Guthrie, Bill Lester, Shawna Robinson, Lake Speed and Lyn St. James.

Before the hearing, Joe Gibbs Racing and NASCAR may present a written summary no more than two pages long, standard-sized letter paper, Times New Roman size 12 font, single spaced. The summaries must remain private. Releasing these to the public could incur a penalty.

When the hearing takes place, both sides will be in the room together. Previously, one side presented its case while the other side was not permitted in the room.

The 2014 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series Rule Book states that “Appeal Panelists have the sole authority to define the scope of relevant testimony, what is admissible or non-admissible, to limit or extend questioning or to seek input from others.’’

Those appealing a penalty and NASCAR officials are not allowed to have legal counsel in the hearing.

In this hearing, NASCAR has the burden of proving its case. It presents its evidence first. Joe Gibbs Racing then will present its case. Both sides are given alternating opportunities for rebuttal. Members of the appeals panel also may ask questions at any time during the presentations by both sides. Once the panel has received the testimony and is satisfied that it has enough information to render a decision, it will deliberate in private.

The panel must determine if NASCAR proved there was an infraction. If so, the panel must determine if the penalty assessed is within the scope of NASCAR’s guidelines. Also, the panel can uphold, increase, decrease or otherwise adjust NASCAR’s penalties.

If NASCAR loses, it cannot appeal.

If, in this case, Joe Gibbs Racing loses, it can appeal to the National Motorsports Final Appeals Officer. That person is Bryan Moss. This is his first year in this position. His decision is final.

If the case reaches this point, the burden of proof switches to the team or individual appealing its case. Thus, the team or individual appealing gets to present its case before NASCAR. Both sides are given an opportunity for rebuttal, based on the Final Appeals Officer’s discretion. The Final Appeals Officer may ask questions at any point of either side during the proceeding.

Also, the scope of each appeal is limited to the correctness of the appeal panel’s decision. The Rule Book states that “any speculation as to the impact of (the Final Appeals Officer’s) decision on a Member or Race Team (e.g. economic hardships, contractual obligations, etc.) is outside the scope of the FAO’s authority and is not to be considered as part of the appeal.’’

The Final Appeals Officer is to decide if the team or individual has proved no violation happened. If a violation is found to have occurred, the Final Appeals Officer then considers the penalty. He can uphold, increase, decrease or otherwise adjust NASCAR penalties as he sees fit.

from here
 
@TheOrangeCone

So here's the take away: when someone else gets busted for "cheating", keep your trap shut because you never know when you'll get caught.
 
In looking at the list of drivers, Johnny Benson, Janet Guthrie, Bill Lester, Shawna Robinson, Lake Speed and Lyn St. James, that's the best they could do?
Why not R. Petty, Jarrett or Rudd?

I'm not sure if he should be eliminated from the chase or not. Bet that'll be a new rule next year X number of minor infractions or one big'un like Hambones scrubs you from the chase.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
@TheOrangeCone

So here's the take away: when someone else gets busted for "cheating", keep your trap shut because you never know when you'll get caught.
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I assume they're referring to when Denny called out Bowyer a few years ago when he was still with RCR and was hit with a stiff penalty for a spoiler infraction. Denny said something to the effect of "everybody knows they're all cheating over there". I guess what goes around comes around.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Do you guys really think that Hamlin should be thrown out of the Chase for this?
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No. But maybe start the chase with -5 points or start the first round of the chase without his crew chief. Not be penalized during the regular season.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
No. But maybe start the chase with -5 points or start the first round of the chase without his crew chief. Not be penalized during the regular season.
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I'm of the thought that had they been caught cheating on a race in which they qualified for the Chase with the win, that win should be taken away.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I'm of the thought that had they been caught cheating on a race in which they qualified for the Chase with the win, that win should be taken away.
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Had that been the case, what likely would have happened is the win wouldn't have been stripped, but it wouldn't have counted towards the Chase.
 
ToyYoda said:
NASCAR proved last year that they have no problem doing that.
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Yeah, but booting a guy from the chase - as some have suggested - is a bit extreme. The #11 team tried, they got caught, they got penalized.

It happens all the time and will continue to happen but it's hardly on par with the debacle that was Richmond, where some got hammered and some didn't.
 
TexasRaceLady said:
Has that ever happened?

And a note to all who have their panties in a wad over the penalty --- I don't think we know all the particulars. Maybe more will come out through the appeal process.
So before you get the lynch mob together and grab some rope, give it some time.
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This. You aren't going to hear the whole story (if we ever do) until the appeal is done. The whole due process thing....don't want to show your hand until it is money time. I will say in the meantime, spare me the driver safety crap. We have teams running stupid tire pressures and sending their guys off into corners at 205 mph.
 
@kennybruce

According to JGR, team engineer Mike Wheeler will serve as interim crew chief for No. 11 entry in Darian Grubb's absence.
 
I found the hammer that was dropped on the 11 team...
pTRU1-17706519reg.jpg
 
The Hamlin flapper car..throw da bums out. no seriously, an appeal can make it worse, stay the same, or the penalty can get lessened. I don't see it getting any better, that car was cheated up in too many places and it can't be explained away as a bad fastener. This was premeditated engineering designed to fool the inspectors. My question is I wonder how many times the Gibbs boys have been able to sneak by one or more of these cheats past Nascar's nose. As most cheating goes, you do one thing and you don't get caught, so what the heck lets do this other one and see if they catch that, so after a while, you get so lackadaisical because you haven't been caught, that you almost have a red flag flying from the rear view mirror. It will be real interesting to see how fast or not the Gibbers are at Loudon this week.
 
StandOnIt said:
The Hamlin flapper car..throw da bums out. no seriously, an appeal can make it worse, stay the same, or the penalty can get lessened. I don't see it getting any better, that car was cheated up in too many places and it can't be explained away as a bad fastener. This was premeditated engineering designed to fool the inspectors. My question is I wonder how many times the Gibbs boys have been able to sneak by one or more of these cheats past Nascar's nose. As most cheating goes, you do one thing and you don't get caught, so what the heck lets do this other one and see if they catch that, so after a while, you get so lackadaisical because you haven't been caught, that you almost have a red flag flying from the rear view mirror. It will be real interesting to see how fast or not the Gibbers are at Loudon this week.
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JGR will suck at Loudon this week. They will kick ass at Pocono, however. Nobody knows what the appeal will show. Worsening the penalty is F1 crap. Won't happen here. You keep referring to the entire Gibbs team when only the #11 was found to be suspect--the #18 and #20 were fine. Rampant systematic cheating is silly. Don't get too high and mighty on the cheating front. Likely everybody stretches something at some time.
 
like I said it will be interesting to see if the Gibbers have speed this week. Tech will be checking all of them for little openings that aren't supposed to be there. If you think Hamlin's was the only one in the Gibb team good for you. I think not myself.
 
Revman said:
JGR will suck at Loudon this week. They will kick ass at Pocono, however. Nobody knows what the appeal will show. Worsening the penalty is F1 crap. Won't happen here. You keep referring to the entire Gibbs team when only the #11 was found to be suspect--the #18 and #20 were fine. Rampant systematic cheating is silly. Don't get too high and mighty on the cheating front. Likely everybody stretches something at some time.
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Yeah, I think all of 'em have been caught cheating at some point. JGR, MWR, Penske, RCR, even wholesome Hendrick.
 
StandOnIt said:
like I said it will be interesting to see if the Gibbers have speed this week. Tech will be checking all of them for little openings that aren't supposed to be there. If you think Hamlin's was the only one in the Gibb team good for you. I think not myself.
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I hear ya bro--your point is fair, but they scoped the hell out of the #18, and got nothing.
 
first reports said they had all three of them, might have taken the worst offender. Who knows if they did or didn't but it will show up at the track one way or the other. Their getting desperate, and time is getting short.
 
StandOnIt said:
first reports said they had all three of them, might have taken the worst offender. Who knows if they did or didn't but it will show up at the track one way or the other. Their getting desperate, and time is getting short.
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Okay man, they NEVER took all three cars. They had Kyle's because he finished P2 and was the random, and they inspected Denny because they can do whatever in the hell they want. Nobody knows for sure but everybody I heard address the issue (i.e. Ray Evernham--and he knows a little something about the process for sure) said that it would be more than a little likely that NASCAR looked at the #20 as well. They have been on a three race roll, and I don't see that changing this weekend.
 
It will show up on the big track this week, no matter who or what who says. What makes it even more interesting and harmful, is that ol man Gibbs is always wrapping himself in the flag and waving the bible. not a good representation as far as I am concerned. His teams have been caught before and nothing happens to the cheaters on his team, so I gather that it is ok with Joe as long as you don't get caught. Moral of the story? Keep your religious affiliations anonymous at the level of press, radio, TV and films. You can do more harm than good.
 
StandOnIt said:
It will show up on the big track this week, no matter who or what who says. What makes it even more interesting and harmful, is that ol man Gibbs is always wrapping himself in the flag and waving the bible. not a good representation as far as I am concerned. His teams have been caught before and nothing happens to the cheaters on his team, so I gather that it is ok with Joe as long as you don't get caught. Moral of the story? Keep your religious affiliations anonymous at the level of press, radio, TV and films. You can do more harm than good.
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Agreed on the performance this weekend.
What do you expect from Coach? Should he have turned his linemen in when they grabbed a jersey? That's illegal. He knew what was going on. I mean come on. Did his organization break a rule? According to NASCAR, yes. Cheat? Okay, you could call it that. Is all of this part of the culture and history of NASCAR? HELL YES! In this sense, it is part of the game, and everybody knows it. It's not like Coach is providing his guys with hookers and crack. SMH.
 
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