NASCAR is struggling to adapt to a changing sports climate

aunty dive said:
It has nothing to do with "to each his own".

The idea that the older cars had less df is a fallacy. Whether or not they were more difficult to drive is not a statement I can refute. I've never driven either.
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Neither have I, and perhaps my discussing downforce is a bit off mark, but my statements on side-force are backed up by data and testing. Whatever the case may be, aero-sensitivity kills good racing. Credit to DanicaFreak for posting the article that tells that story.
 
MarcWiley said:
Whatever the case may be, aero-sensitivity kills good racing.
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Agreed. That fact is evident in every professional racing series.

A brick hurtling through the air at 200mph is subject to the laws of physics. Aerodynamic dependence / sensitivity is primarily a function of velocity.
 
I say just rip the splitter off. rip the plates off, get the car off the ground,... and let them race

BUT only if you can keep them from flying
 
"Obviously, they're an edgy brand," France said.

Yes, obviously.

Happy to see someone remembered the “edgy” thing. Been a couple weeks since the Harvick proclamation.
 
Greg said:
Unfortunately, I think that combination would fly.
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A bit. Plates don't bother me, I actually thought the plate racing in 2016 was quite a bit better than years past. I'd still like to see it be a little more difficult for the leader to get out front and control the field, but some guys are just good at that no matter what you do, so I'll take it.

The 1.5 mile snoozefests though....that's where changes need to be made, and quickly. Either give those races to short tracks and road courses, or give the drivers cars that require skill and aren't so aero-sensitive that they can't even get close to the car they're chasing, let alone make a pass.
 
MarcWiley said:
A bit. Plates don't bother me, I actually thought the plate racing in 2016 was quite a bit better than years past. I'd still like to see it be a little more difficult for the leader to get out front and control the field, but some guys are just good at that no matter what you do, so I'll take it.

The 1.5 mile snoozefests though....that's where changes need to be made, and quickly. Either give those races to short tracks and road courses, or give the drivers cars that require skill and aren't so aero-sensitive that they can't even get close to the car they're chasing, let alone make a pass.
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I am all for more short tracks and real tire wear.
 
MarcWiley said:
I'm dead-center in their coveted 18-35 bracket and to me, it all comes down to cars. The cars they have now are crammed with engineering b.s., downforce (less now, but still a lot), and the took the HP away to "save money". Teams in NASCAR do not SAVE money, the just use it somewhere else.

IMHO, NASCAR needs to remove their heads from their asses and realize that this Gen-6 car, cool though it my look (debatable, but that's a whole different conversation), produces the worst racing I've seen outside of F1. Ditch the splitter, raise the ride heights so the cars aren't glued to the asphalt, and take away all of the stupid shark fins to help straighten cars out, and make the bodies symmetrical to get rid of the air-wall of "side-force" on the right side of the car. I mean SERIOUSLY??!! These are supposed to be the best stock car drivers in the world and we give them aero help to stop spinning out? Ridiculous. These cars should be so on edge that a whisper of contact could send them around, ala the early-mid 2000's. Those cars may have looked weird compared to their road going versions, but they were hard to hang on to, and you could tell even on TV. THAT'S what made them so fun to watch. Was every race amazing? No, of course not, but you could tell how hard they had to drive to stay in control and make passes. The driver truly made the thing work, not a bunch of engineers back at the shop who work enough downforce into the body to glue all 4 tires to the race track.

(sorry if this was a bit ramble-y but this topic fires me up to no end and I just joined this forum so I want there to be no questions where I stand haha.)
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I am hopeful for 2017's aero as supposedly the 2017 rules will produce ~1,500 pounds of downforce at speed, down from ~2,000 pounds in 2016. Compared to 2015 downforce should be down by about 45% so at least they're making some waves on that front.

I do wish they would give back some HP too, but I guess that poses too much of a safety threat in conjunction with the decreased downforce rules.
 
Aerodynamics has to be managed at the speeds they run, drivers need some sort of stability in traffic. It is a messy deal that NASCAR has been struggling with for over a couple decades; it is not an easy thing so solve. They can't change the law of physics. They try to slow them down with plates or glue them to the track with wings.

I wonder what would happen if they got splitter off the track.
 
How do we make them harder to drive in clean air? Where it's actually detrimental to the cars handling to be out front.
Changes made to areodynamics at the rear of the car to actually pull the car behind closer.
Clearly I'm no engineer but apparently Nascar haven't hired one either by the exhibition on track. :D
 
I like the direction of less downforce, don't get me wrong. But once we get the aero dependency lowered to a better level I'd like to see the cars be made to draft better. Maybe there's a way to add non-useful drag. The fundamentals of oval tracks no matter how big or small are two straightaways connected by two corners. And at most tracks its the straights where the fans sit. Getting more passing to happen along those straights in addition to in the corners would be nice. Plus, in my experience drafting and slingshot type passes are the ones non-fans are most familiar with and understand. Thanks Days of Thunder.
 
R Clarence said:
"Obviously, they're an edgy brand," France said.

Yes, obviously.

Happy to see someone remembered the “edgy” thing. Been a couple weeks since the Harvick proclamation.
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I bet the only time Brian gets edgy is when he is low on Crown.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I am hopeful for 2017's aero as supposedly the 2017 rules will produce ~1,500 pounds of downforce at speed, down from ~2,000 pounds in 2016. Compared to 2015 downforce should be down by about 45% so at least they're making some waves on that front.

I do wish they would give back some HP too, but I guess that poses too much of a safety threat in conjunction with the decreased downforce rules.
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I hope the teams take a while longer to defeat Nascar's LD initiative then last year as there were a few good races and then it was bidness as usual.
 
NASCAR hasn't figured out yet. It's time to cut competition costs.
Greg said:
Unfortunately, I think that combination would fly.
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Why does everyone always say this? In the early to mid 2000's we had the occasional rollover wreck on the plate tracks, but cars weren't flying through the air every time somebody got sideways.

I've seen more cars flying into the grandstands in the COT era than I ever did during days on the twisted sister cars.
 
JBone88 said:
NASCAR hasn't figured out yet. It's time to cut competition costs.


Why does everyone always say this? In the early to mid 2000's we had the occasional rollover wreck on the plate tracks, but cars weren't flying through the air every time somebody got sideways.

I've seen more cars flying into the grandstands in the COT era than I ever did during days on the twisted sister cars.
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In addition to this, why couldn't we keep the side skirts and splitters on the cars for the fast tracks and take them off for the slower tracks? We already have an aero package for Daytona and Talladega. Just make the side skirts and splitters required for the fast tracks.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Well, NASCAR's new home at NBCSN specializes in niche sports, so... :idunno:

I'm sick of the "Ratings are down because nobody gets NBCSN" excuse as well. It's included in the lowest priced plan on Playstation.
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Incidentally, we took a closer look. Turns out there are several station my wife watches on Dish that aren't on PS (yet?). But thanks for the info.
 
I don't pay attention to most other sports. Is NASCAR the only one having problems drawing an audience in the late 2010's? Are other sports having issues to varying degrees?

I understand the NFL is discussing dropping their Thursday games on the notion they're putting on too much product. Going back to the old notion of "leave 'em wanting more", I guess.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I don't pay attention to most other sports. Is NASCAR the only one having problems drawing an audience in the late 2010's? Are other sports having issues to varying degrees?

I understand the NFL is discussing dropping their Thursday games on the notion they're putting on too much product. Going back to the old notion of "leave 'em wanting more", I guess.
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NFL ratings are in decline. Don't know about the others.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I don't pay attention to most other sports. Is NASCAR the only one having problems drawing an audience in the late 2010's? Are other sports having issues to varying degrees?
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You're likely to get yes answers to this, but truly, no other major sport has fallen on anywhere near the scale that NASCAR has over the past decade. Maybe boxing, if that counts, given that it has largely been replaced by MMA. Tennis is not as popular as it was from the 1970s through the 1990s, but it hasn't lost half its audience in about a dozen years.

The NFL had a down year after decades of skyrocketing interest and support. In perspective, they gained about 40% and then lost 10% back this season. MLB was worse off in the late 90s and has had rocky times, but morphed into a more regional / local sport with intense interest and booming profits at that level. The NBA and NHL are unquestionably in better shape than they were 10-15 years ago. Soccer has gained in American interest.

Boxing is all I can think of that is perhaps comparable. Or IndyCar's collapse after the split, but it is on a slow uptick over the past decade.
 
Just a dream...... Nascars struggles for big TV and Corporate dollars finally makes them admit the obvious.
That Brian France is an Idiot that needs to be removed.
Not as barbaric as a Romanov style removal, but one thats still very absolute. It would include totally severing any ties, and any false accreditions that he has grown accustomed too, and expects from his lackies. Definitely no birthrighted guaranteed HoF privileges either, that the royal family would otherwise demand.
And no opportunity to even apologize for being worthless, aside from photography of him shamefully crying. The crying images would be some therapy for any Stockholm Syndrome types that been suppressed enough to think it was ever about Nascar first. Fast cars are naturally cool as Hell, and Nascar didnt invent cool.

It would be tempting to have a moment during the prerace to celebrate the end of his inglorious legacy( and 'inglorious' is a more charitable description than he deserves) . A moment to celebrate racing over a brands exploitation.

But the thought of him being totally disconnected is a more righteous one
 
gnomesayin said:
You're likely to get yes answers to this, but truly, no other major sport has fallen on anywhere near the scale that NASCAR has over the past decade. Maybe boxing, if that counts, given that it has largely been replaced by MMA. Tennis is not as popular as it was from the 1970s through the 1990s, but it hasn't lost half its audience in about a dozen years.

The NFL had a down year after decades of skyrocketing interest and support. In perspective, they gained about 40% and then lost 10% back this season. MLB was worse off in the late 90s and has had rocky times, but morphed into a more regional / local sport with intense interest and booming profits at that level. The NBA and NHL are unquestionably in better shape than they were 10-15 years ago. Soccer has gained in American interest.

Boxing is all I can think of that is perhaps comparable. Or IndyCar's collapse after the split, but it is on a slow uptick over the past decade.
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The NBA and NHL have a demographic advertisers really like as well. It is very easy to get caught up in how many people are watching a program but in reality if you are outside the preferred demo you count for very little.

Back in 1970 the 3 TV networks started engaging in what came to be known as the Rural Purge by dumping programs with country/hick themes like The Beverly Hillbillys, Green Acres and Gomer Pyle even though they all got good ratings but the audience skewed old. They were replaced with shows like All in the Family, MASH and Muade and that was that.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Yep, I agree with you.

This sport was continuing it's growth until shortly after the Chase implementation. Many of us were against it from the outset. Others gave it a year to play out. The ratings/attendance tell the story from that point on.

They always seem to be convinced that further changes are necessary. Change is what stunted the growth of this sport. They had it right and they effed it up.
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It would be nice if life were so simple, but it's not. For a period in the late 1990s and early 2000s, Nascar was "cool" and millions of fad fans flocked to the races and to the broadcasts. The whole Nascar scene was fashionable from coast to coast. Nascar was booming, but that was never going to last long term. Those fad fans soon moved on to graze in a new pasture. It's not right to attribute their departure to the chase. They were never going to stick around long term.
 
LewTheShoe said:
It would be nice if life were so simple, but it's not. For a period in the late 1990s and early 2000s, Nascar was "cool" and millions of fad fans flocked to the races and to the broadcasts. The whole Nascar scene was fashionable from coast to coast. Nascar was booming, but that was never going to last long term. Those fad fans soon moved on to graze in a new pasture. It's not right to attribute their departure to the chase. They were never going to stick around long term.
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I still think the tennis boom of the mid-70s through early '80s is the best comparison to NASCAR's faddish rise and decline. Tennis is doing fine, just not at the popular levels it reached then. Tennis has the advantages of being overall less expensive to play and host than auto racing.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I don't know, there seems to be a divide there too. What the paying fan wants to see seemingly differs from what the TV fan wants to see. I know A LOT of people who go to The Brobdingnagians for 500 and 600 mile races, love seeing "the speed" and hate the idea of shortening their drin, er, the races. Whereas, the people watching on television fall asleep on that sh!t.
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Maybe that is an indication that the TV programming and their producers are more at fault than is indicated. Everyone blames Nascar for boring races but the racing producers are the ones who control what we see. It seems those that attend the races are better satisfied with their entertainment value.
You are one that is in a position to understand that producers are very dominate people and they know what you want more than anybody.

I still don't understand why they don't show smaller sponsors the same way news casts promote stories with continued scrolling at the bottom.

There is one other thing wrong with the programs. rather than have announcers talk continually for the sake of filling the void, why not have less dialogue with more intelligent comments.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I am hopeful for 2017's aero as supposedly the 2017 rules will produce ~1,500 pounds of downforce at speed, down from ~2,000 pounds in 2016. Compared to 2015 downforce should be down by about 45% so at least they're making some waves on that front.

I do wish they would give back some HP too, but I guess that poses too much of a safety threat in conjunction with the decreased downforce rules.
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I thought the racing was a whole lot better years ago and they only had 650 HP. A lot of these young drivers don't have enough experience or patience to drive with 800 HP let alone 1000.
 
LewTheShoe said:
It would be nice if life were so simple, but it's not. For a period in the late 1990s and early 2000s, Nascar was "cool" and millions of fad fans flocked to the races and to the broadcasts. The whole Nascar scene was fashionable from coast to coast. Nascar was booming, but that was never going to last long term. Those fad fans soon moved on to graze in a new pasture. It's not right to attribute their departure to the chase. They were never going to stick around long term.
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You can't make absolute statements like "they were never going to stick around" because had Nascar managed the series properly and managed the growth properly we don't know how healthy the series would be now. One day a bunch of fans decided to follow Nascar as it was interesting. Nascar's answer was to scuttle tracks like the old Atlanta, Wilkesboro, Rockingham, the old Richmond and replace them with antiseptic cookie cutters designed to put asses in seats instead of promoting good racing.

Nascar was very popular and Brian chortled that they were #2 behind the NFL and then the people woke up and realized they were in a sequel to The Emporer's New Suit of Clothes" and started dumping Nascar. Nascar fiddled while Rome burned.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I still think the tennis boom of the mid-70s through early '80s is the best comparison to NASCAR's faddish rise and decline. Tennis is doing fine, just not at the popular levels it reached then. Tennis has the advantages of being overall less expensive to play and host than auto racing.
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Tennis is played internationally and I dare say it is more popular in other countries than the US.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I'm not under any misconception that is the only reason. It's one of many reasons for the decline of the sport IMO.
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IMO the quick answer is that Nascar lost its way in the 90's by replacing traditional tracks and traditional dates with cookie cutters. The problem was further exacerbated by the introduction of the chase which was quickly followed but the CoT and those things did in and finished off many longtime supporters. Nascar didn't care that what attracted a lot of the new fans was exactly what the old fans liked and instead of continuing to give old and new what they liked they went completely off the rez.
 
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