Nationwide winner, points or no points?

I don't understand why everyone is so concerned with this? It's about racing isn't? Who cares if the guy is in Cup, an ARCA driver, the owner gets points or the crew chief has pimples on this face?

Let's race!

Your rationale seems like it would be like saying, "I love to watch a fight. Who cares if one fighter is 200 lbs and trained in martial arts and the opponent is your basic 98 lb. weakling who has one hand tied behind his back. Who cares, it's still "Fighting?"

Sorry zeavious. I know it works for you and I respect that, but for me the situation just plain stinks.

Totally agree

It's like Steve Urkel fighting Brock Lesnar.

Of course Zevious is going to say that, he is a fan of the driver who's won just about every minor league race in the last four years.

The biggest problem is that the guys with top rides in Cup also have the top rides in Nationwide and a really good Nationwide driver (who might even win a race against the 800lb. gorillas) don't advance in to Cup.

Stephen Leicht -- won a race against Cup stars... RCR hired him. The following season, Leicht was testing cars for Bowyer, Harvick and Burton to race in the minor leagues.
 
The biggest problem I have with it is the developmental part, it seemed to work great in the past, now you get these kids in Cup when they are 18, 19, and 20. They are rushed because they are the next pretty face, are articulate, and can spout off all their sponsor in a matter of 30 seconds. I used to love watching the BGN series because by mid season you could see what drivers had a decent chance of being in Cup the next season. Now I don't even know any of their names. I think if the cars were a lot different and the schedules were also we wouldn't see so many Cup guys coming into Nationwide. Nascar doesn't seem to want make a sincere effort to change this any time soon either. They put little token efforts into it just like they do to the plate fiasco, but nothing changes. If I want to watch Cup guys I tune in on Sunday not to the Nationwide race on a Saturday. I think Nascar is really making a mockery of the sport, but hey a lot of you younger fans seem to like it and I think that is what Nascar is gearing their product for.

Hey, I'm a younger fan (27) and I don't like it. Cup drivers should stay in Cup! I mean why pour all of your sweat, blood and tears to get into the Best of the best in stock car racing (Cup), only to keep racing at a lower tier event?
 
Hey, I'm a younger fan (27) and I don't like it. Cup drivers should stay in Cup! I mean why pour all of your sweat, blood and tears to get into the Best of the best in stock car racing (Cup), only to keep racing at a lower tier event?

I agreed (20) younger fans don't like it any better
 
Hey, I'm a younger fan (27) and I don't like it. Cup drivers should stay in Cup! I mean why pour all of your sweat, blood and tears to get into the Best of the best in stock car racing (Cup), only to keep racing at a lower tier event?

I agreed (20) younger fans don't like it any better

But you guys are race fans.

The teenage girl crowd, the WWE crowd NASCAR's trying to appeal to (the little girls who watch because they think KYle Busch and Carl Edwards are hot) -- they're not going to watch Crappywide without their driver in it.

They aren't real fans though.
 
But you guys are race fans.

The teenage girl crowd, the WWE crowd NASCAR's trying to appeal to (the little girls who watch because they think KYle Busch and Carl Edwards are hot) -- they're not going to watch Crappywide without their driver in it.

They aren't real fans though.

I don't consider those other Kahne fans people
 
I don't consider those other Kahne fans people

Around my household, Kasey is referred to as "Candy Kahne".
Really.

As far as the topic goes, I found it strange for ESPN to interview the 11th place (I think) finisher who also happens to be the NNS points leader - Justin Algaier. I guess this will be the norm, now.
 
But you guys are race fans.

The teenage girl crowd, the WWE crowd NASCAR's trying to appeal to (the little girls who watch because they think KYle Busch and Carl Edwards are hot) -- they're not going to watch Crappywide without their driver in it.

They aren't real fans though.
NASCAR may want those teens and tweens, but they aren't marketing the sport towards them. Who pays the bills in those families. The direction NASCAR has been going in the last seven to eight years has been the Hip Hop generation. They have the money, the freedom and are easily hooked for a while.
 
... I think Nascar is really making a mockery of the sport, but hey a lot of you younger fans seem to like it and I think that is what Nascar is gearing their product for.
And THAT, Mopardh, hit the nail squarely on the head. NA__AR is pandering to the driver fan who would rather see "Their" driver than see an actual race. This is the same type who can not fathom NA__AR without the Chosen 35 Rule because it ensures that "Their" driver will make the race. You know, the kind of "Fan" who goes to a race but if "Their" driver wrecks or blows an engine 25 laps into a race, they pack up and leave the track because "What is there left to see now?"

NA__AR knew full well that this latest "Attempt to fix the problem" would do absolutely nothing, nada, zilch. All it did was to allow things to remain basically status quo while being able to point to the points change and say, "Look! We did something! We tried!"
 
It doesn't matter to me that these Cup drivers run in the Nationwide Series. A race is a race IMO. I just think the whole idea of pretending that they aren't there by not allowing them to score points is wrong. They are there. NASCAR is just setting themselves up for further ridicule @ the end of the season after the paper champion is crowned.
 
No one thinks Kyle Busch is hot lol. Not little girls, not tweens, probably not even his wife. He is a talented driver but about as homely as they come.
 
No one thinks Kyle Busch is hot lol. Not little girls, not tweens, probably not even his wife. He is a talented driver but about as homely as they come.

Actually, there are. Lots of people have different taste.

Example: most people (including myself) on this forum think Danica is hot. :growl:
 
NASCAR may want those teens and tweens, but they aren't marketing the sport towards them. Who pays the bills in those families. The direction NASCAR has been going in the last seven to eight years has been the Hip Hop generation. They have the money, the freedom and are easily hooked for a while.

I'm surprise they haven't started racing ricers if they wanted the hip hop crowd.

This fits my view on ricers, perfectly.

ricers.jpg
 
Yes, I suppose I am a little biased in my opinion because I like KB. I'd also venture to say that the reason some do not like how it is now is because their favorite driver is NOT winning.

With that said, I am not saying that the current system is perfect. Far from it. I'm just saying that it IS racing and it is the same at any level of racing. The guy with the most money will have the best equipment and those with less money will complain and try to get the rules changed to work better for them.

In the Nationwide series. there are other teams than JGR and Roush that have money. What about Turner Motorsports? They have, what, 5 or 6 Hendrick cars? THAT isn't top equipment?

I personally think they need to go back to the old system or just limit the number of races you can run in a junior division. Maybe only allow you to run 1 race per weekend at a given track? With that said, if you think the stands are empty now, wait until they eliminate the Cup drivers in Nationwide.

I see many people thinking that having the Cup drivers in Nationwide has changed the series from being a feeder to the Cup series. At the end of the day, the dynamics of this business HAVE changed. Getting a Cup ride is just as much about sponsor money (if not more) than it is about talent. THAT is the state of things. It's all about the $. HOW is that effected by KB winning 80% of the Nationwide races? If Steven Wallace came with enough money, he could get a Cup ride. Kevin Conway did it last year.
 
Well the good news is that JGR is finally giving a non cup driver a chance to shine in the best car in the Nationwide series at Richmond this weekend. Let's hope he makes the best of it.
 
Yes, I suppose I am a little biased in my opinion because I like KB. I'd also venture to say that the reason some do not like how it is now is because their favorite driver is NOT winning.

Really? I had a problem with it when Harvick was winning all the races running the entire schedule in 2006.
 
I personally think they need to go back to the old system or just limit the number of races you can run in a junior division. Maybe only allow you to run 1 race per weekend at a given track? With that said, if you think the stands are empty now, wait until they eliminate the Cup drivers in Nationwide.
I hear this reason, alibi, rationale, whatever alot. In fact, it's the reason NA__AR gives for encouraging the Cup raiders to drive in the lower series. The question I always give about this line of reasoning is: How in the world did BGN Series ever survive from 1982 (and with the Sportsman Division prior to that, which dates back to 1950) until Harvick began driving full time in both Cup and BGN in 2001 and Biffle went full time in...? 2004 or 2006?

Before that you hardly ever heard any complaints from the race fans, even when the occasional Cup driver showed up. The Series had a good amount of fans who followed that Series almost strictly. They ran at tracks the Cup Series didn't run and they had teams with no deep Cup affiliations and it wasn't unusual for 55-60 cars to show up on a race night, trying to make the field. There were drivers who loved the series and didn't make any serious attempt to go up to Cup (Do the names Jack Ingram, Sam Ard, Tommy Houston and Tommy Ellis ring any bells?)

The stands at Rougemont, Hickory, Myrtle Beach and South Boston were always crammed with screaming fans. Milwaukee always had a good turnout and the few accompanying Cup events they ran at may not have filled the massive number of seats but you seldom heard any complaints as you do today.

Today they run basically the same weekends and the majority of people in the stands are there because (a) They had to buy a weekend two-race ticket, or (b) They are at the track for the weekend anyway and it's too early in the day to get seriously drunk. From the look of the stands, from the few TV shots I've seen there aren't all that many of either type because the attendance looks pretty anemic.

I hear a lot of complaints about the Cup, BGN and CTS these days. Everyone seems to complain about the decreasing number of fans. However, NA__AR has one series which is doing great. The stands are usually filled and folks go home talking about the great racing. I'm talking about the Whelen Modified Series. How could this be? My gosh, They have almost zero number of Cup Raiders run in the series and whoever heard of names like Todd Szegedy, Mike Steffanik or Ted Christopher? Why, the series is still basically the same series it was back in the 70's, and has stayed true to its roots? The number of companion events they run each season can be counted on the fingers of one hand?

Gee, I wonder how such a series could ever be successful? Could it be because it draw race fans and not necessarily driver fans? Could it be it's a series that actually gives it's fans what they expect, actual non-gimmicked up racing? Could it be that the folks who plunk down their hard earned money to see a modified race leave the track feeling they got their money's worth?
 
I hear this reason, alibi, rationale, whatever alot. In fact, it's the reason NA__AR gives for encouraging the Cup raiders to drive in the lower series. The question I always give about this line of reasoning is: How in the world did BGN Series ever survive from 1982 (and with the Sportsman Division prior to that, which dates back to 1950) until Harvick began driving full time in both Cup and BGN in 2001 and Biffle went full time in...? 2004 or 2006?

Before that you hardly ever heard any complaints from the race fans, even when the occasional Cup driver showed up. The Series had a good amount of fans who followed that Series almost strictly. They ran at tracks the Cup Series didn't run and they had teams with no deep Cup affiliations and it wasn't unusual for 55-60 cars to show up on a race night, trying to make the field. There were drivers who loved the series and didn't make any serious attempt to go up to Cup (Do the names Jack Ingram, Sam Ard, Tommy Houston and Tommy Ellis ring any bells?)

The stands at Rougemont, Hickory, Myrtle Beach and South Boston were always crammed with screaming fans. Milwaukee always had a good turnout and the few accompanying Cup events they ran at may not have filled the massive number of seats but you seldom heard any complaints as you do today.

Today they run basically the same weekends and the majority of people in the stands are there because (a) They had to buy a weekend two-race ticket, or (b) They are at the track for the weekend anyway and it's too early in the day to get seriously drunk. From the look of the stands, from the few TV shots I've seen there aren't all that many of either type because the attendance looks pretty anemic.

I hear a lot of complaints about the Cup, BGN and CTS these days. Everyone seems to complain about the decreasing number of fans. However, NA__AR has one series which is doing great. The stands are usually filled and folks go home talking about the great racing. I'm talking about the Whelen Modified Series. How could this be? My gosh, They have almost zero number of Cup Raiders run in the series and whoever heard of names like Todd Szegedy, Mike Steffanik or Ted Christopher? Why, the series is still basically the same series it was back in the 70's, and has stayed true to its roots? The number of companion events they run each season can be counted on the fingers of one hand?

Gee, I wonder how such a series could ever be successful? Could it be because it draw race fans and not necessarily driver fans? Could it be it's a series that actually gives it's fans what they expect, actual non-gimmicked up racing? Could it be that the folks who plunk down their hard earned money to see a modified race leave the track feeling they got their money's worth?

So are you saying that the attendance would RISE if they removed the Cup drivers from Nationwide and CTS?
 
So are you saying that the attendance would RISE if they removed the Cup drivers from Nationwide and CTS?

I believe it would eventually, there would be an adjustment period. Once more guys started coming up the the Nationwide ranks from the local tracks the interest would be there and I believe the racing would be a hell of a lot better. The Modified Racing Series here in the Northeast is just as good or better than the Whelen Mods, sometimes the Whelen guys will cross over and run some of the races, makes for great car counts. I'll take the mods over all the top 3 tier series any day, IMO they are the best racing around. I'm very partial to them I suppose, been watching them since the old coupe days, more entertainment for the buck for sure.
 
They would probably have to move away from companion events then. Only have a few races at tracks that are also Cup tracks and move the other races to places like South Boston, Memphis(I think it reopened?) etc. to help ween people off of expecting to see Cup drivers.
 
They would probably have to move away from companion events then. Only have a few races at tracks that are also Cup tracks and move the other races to places like South Boston, Memphis(I think it reopened?) etc. to help ween people off of expecting to see Cup drivers.

At least not at the same tracks on the same weekends.
 
So are you saying that the attendance would RISE if they removed the Cup drivers from Nationwide and CTS?
First of all I'm not saying to refuse them entry into the lower series but keep their involvement to a bare minimum. And this idiotic concept of Cup drivers having their own fully independent teams (KBR and KHR for example) is just silly. It's my belief that only the most naive believes that KBR and KHR do not have the full power of KGR and RCR respectively behind those operation. It was less than a couple weeks ago I believe that JGR told, in an interview, that it would furnish a car and support to Kyle for some possible ex-f1 driver. How "Independent" is that? All this goes back to my analogy of the martial arts fighter taking on the handicapped 98 pound weakling.

As far as shear numbers...? because so many for the people in the stands now, at companion events, are coerced into attending ("Must-Buy weekend tickets, etc., etc.) probably not. But numbers don't make a good race but rather a good race makes numbers.

Get the series away from companion events and put it running shorter, more uniquely different tracks and NOT the cookie cutter 1½- and 2-milers they run the companion event on would fill the stands to the host track. Do away with the tracks like Nashville Superspeedway and put them back on tracks like Nashville Fairgrounds and the stands would be packed with happy campers. I'll take 20,00 fans happy with the product over 30,000 who are there because they had to buy the ticket and then complain about the inequities in the series. In the long run the first group can grow. In the second you have stagnation and possible outright failure.

The Series doesn't require the Cup drivers, pseudo Cup teams, and Cup-level money to be successful. All it needs is its own identity (which the Cup Raiders have completely stolen from it) and good racing. I stand on what I wrote previously, describing the Series as it once was and how it was perceived by the fans. The series wasn't in trouble until they began letting Cup entities dominate, began running companion events and got away from the short track concept. A typical case of NA__AR trying to fix something which wasn't broken in the first place.
 
I believe it would eventually, there would be an adjustment period. Once more guys started coming up the the Nationwide ranks from the local tracks the interest would be there and I believe the racing would be a hell of a lot better. The Modified Racing Series here in the Northeast is just as good or better than the Whelen Mods, sometimes the Whelen guys will cross over and run some of the races, makes for great car counts. I'll take the mods over all the top 3 tier series any day, IMO they are the best racing around. I'm very partial to them I suppose, been watching them since the old coupe days, more entertainment for the buck for sure.
GREAT point Mopardh, local interest. I bet you remember the days when they ran ar places like Hickory, South Boston and Martinsville that some local hot shoe would get a decent ride and try to make the field and the local fans would come out to see "Their local hero" run? Outside of the CTS how many times do we see that today in Cup Lite or Cup? As late as the late 90's I remember it being a fairly regular occurance at the short tracks. It might have happened since but the last time I remember anything like that occuring in Cup was Stacy Compton at Martinsville, back in... 1997 or 1998? You know... back in the days when every seat, including the back stretch bleachers, at Martinsville, were sold out for every Cup race.
 
Well, I guess not everyone is turned off by the influx of Cup drivers.

ESPN had 1.3 rating for Nashville Nationwide race (1.5 for households w/ESPN). Best rating since ESPN started doing race in 2007.

That rating is around 36% higher than last year's Nashville race and 15% higher than 2009.
 
It isn't just limited to last weekend though.

Across all ESPN networks so far this season, the NASCAR Nationwide Series is averaging a 1.6 U.S. rating, up from a 1.4 average at this point last year.
 
The Kyle Busch effect.

A lot of his fans (I'd venture to say most) won't watch a race if he's not in it.

Ratings will go down, but sponsors would come back in the sport and it would be more affordable and Kyle Busch wouldn't win every race.

Time to race at Hickory, North Wilkesboro, SoBo, Langley, Manassas, Rockingham and Gresham.
 
So, with Kyle Busch out of the Nationwide lineup this weekend do you think we'll see a Nationwide winner actually earn points? OK, you can stop laughing now. I don't think so either.

Oh..... and only 42 starters Friday night.
 
The Kyle Busch effect.

A lot of his fans (I'd venture to say most) won't watch a race if he's not in it.

Ratings will go down, but sponsors would come back in the sport and it would be more affordable and Kyle Busch wouldn't win every race.

Time to race at Hickory, North Wilkesboro, SoBo, Langley, Manassas, Rockingham and Gresham.
So, Andy. would you go so far as say that a lot of this reported increase in rating might be accountable to driver fans and not necessarily racing fans? :) I would.

As to you suggestion they return to the short tracks, IMNSVHO they should never have left. If they hadn't the tracks and the series might be much better off.
 
So, Andy. would you go so far as say that a lot of this reported increase in rating might be accountable to driver fans and not necessarily racing fans? :) I would.

As to you suggestion they return to the short tracks, IMNSVHO they should never have left. If they hadn't the tracks and the series might be much better off.

Yes. How many of these people leave the track when Kyle, Junyer and Kahne wreck?
 
Yes. How many of these people leave the track when Kyle, Junyer and Kahne wreck?
They're all cut from the same mold.

I admit that I am extremely vehement about the blatantly wrong Chosen 35 Rule. That said, one of the most ludicrous statements I ever heard a supposed race fan make was one evening on Clare B. Lang's XM NASCAR show ( maybe back in 2005 or so?). The Chosen 35 Rule was being discussed and why it should be done away with and some guy called in saying the rule was necessary. His rationale? He told the world that he personally attended five or six races a season and his favourite driver was [name not important].He said "If I pay money for a ticket and [my driver] doesn't qualify then I've wasted my money!"

Now THERE was a real race fan!
 
I know a lot of fans are like that. But Kahne, Junyer and KyBu seem to have a monopoly on douchebag fake fans who only care about one driver because they think he's hot.

As I said the other day those Kahne fans don't count.
 
Why not simply set the system up so that it's not worth it to the Cup driver to race in Nationwide and CTS? If they've chosen to get points in the CUP series, and they win a race in NNW or CTS, then make it so that it actually COST them money to run in more than one series than it'd earn them. That'd fix the problem very quickly.
 
Why not simply set the system up so that it's not worth it to the Cup driver to race in Nationwide and CTS? If they've chosen to get points in the CUP series, and they win a race in NNW or CTS, then make it so that it actually COST them money to run in more than one series than it'd earn them. That'd fix the problem very quickly.

Two options: Don't let owners points count if a Cup driver is in the car and don't allow Cup drivers to get prize money for any position in Nationwide or Trucks. This will severely limit their involvement... I don't care what the KyBu lovers on TV say, it is about the money. If there was no financial benefit, they would not run it... why do you think KyBu, Logano, Hamlin, Edwards, Menard, Kahne, Harvick and the others don't run the nine ARCA races?
 
Two options: Don't let owners points count if a Cup driver is in the car and don't allow Cup drivers to get prize money for any position in Nationwide or Trucks. This will severely limit their involvement... I don't care what the KyBu lovers on TV say, it is about the money. If there was no financial benefit, they would not run it... why do you think KyBu, Logano, Hamlin, Edwards, Menard, Kahne, Harvick and the others don't run the nine ARCA races?

To be honest, I'm starting to get to the point where I'd severally limit how much CUP/NNW/CTS races I watch and watch more Whelen Modified races and local track races.

It's starting to get to a point where NNW and CTS is nothing more than a joke and NASCAR "Fixes" are making a bad situation worse.
 
If they really like racing in Nationwide and Trucks because they just love to race, let's see them do it when there's no chance of them getting any money out of it.

A couple drivers might run a few, but the fields won't be 50%+ Cup drivers every week.

They don't do it "because they love to race" and anyone who says that is lying through their nose. If they did, Kyle Busch would be running at least nine ARCA races a year as would Edwards and the others... but they get less money from winning in ARCA than they would running late models out here.

Why do you think Kyle Busch runs the Snowball, Winchester, CRA Berlin race and Speedfest? Think it's for the love of the sport? If it was, he'd already be entered to run the Tornados 100... it's not, he runs those because those are easy paychecks for him.
 
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